Quote from: jgants;224409Which is exactly why I don't like Jackelope's anarchy ideas.  It's hard enough dealing with morons who can't even elect someone smart to make decisions for them.  If we have them making decisions for themselves we're really in trouble.

Dude, in that statement you nailed exactly what the problem is.

Why are people bad at making decisions?

Because they grow up with their parents making decisions for them, their preachers making decisions for them, then their bosses making decisions for them, and their governors making decisions for them.  The only decisions they're allowed to make for themselves is Coke or Pepsi?  Ford or Chrysler?  3.5 or 4E?

If we have them making decisions for themselves, instead of picking people (preachers, bosses, governors) to make decisions for them, maybe they'll actually get some practice at it.

Quote from: Kellri;224504Hmm - so intentionally misleading the nation into a tragic war and then denying the deception as an unintentional misunderstanding (but a mistake we need to KEEP MAKING) is not an impeachable offense? Your argument sounds like the woman whose husband got drunk and beat her up telling the cops "He's no criminal officer, he's my man. Sometimes I need a good whuppin' "

See, here's the thing - I honestly believe Bush very strongly believes what he says.  I don't think he, himself, is intentionally misleading anyone.  I think he went in with strong preconceptions and saw only what he wanted to see, but that's a case of poor judgement and fooling yourself.  Guys do it all the time with women, Bush did it with Iraq.

Now, I do think certain members of his inner circle were intentionally misleading people (including Bush).

I'm not letting Bush off the hook by any means - I think he's dumb, makes terrible decisions, and is stubborn and obstinate beyond all get-out.  But again, that doesn't reach the "high crimes" requirement.  Being a shitty leader isn't a crime.

Quote from: Jackalope;224822Dude, in that statement you nailed exactly what the problem is.

Why are people bad at making decisions?

Because they grow up with their parents making decisions for them, their preachers making decisions for them, then their bosses making decisions for them, and their governors making decisions for them.  The only decisions they're allowed to make for themselves is Coke or Pepsi?  Ford or Chrysler?  3.5 or 4E?

If we have them making decisions for themselves, instead of picking people (preachers, bosses, governors) to make decisions for them, maybe they'll actually get some practice at it.

I concede you have a point there.  But I'm still not convinced your solution is the way to go.

QuoteAbsurd schemes that some people don't like aren't one of the enumerated reasons why a President should be removed via impeachment in the office. You'd need to show treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. If you could demonstrate that Bush started the war to enrich his friends, that would qualify.

So intentionally misleading American soldiers into committing murder on foreign soil isn't treasonous? Offering billions in foreign aid & favors to a select 'coalition of the willing' isn't bribery?? Establishing a secretive concentration camp off-shore to torture our enemies isn't a high crime?

QuoteConsider this recent poll:

I did. And I consider a network from an occupying country conducting an accurate poll during a civil war in a foreign country to be absurd. How was the poll conducted - by telephone?? in the market?? Did they ask the thousands of Iraqis who've already fled the country for Syria and other places? Maybe they just asked the same bunch of Iraqi 'exiles' in Washington - they always know the answers.

Quote from: Kellri;224997So intentionally misleading American soldiers into committing murder on foreign soil isn't treasonous?

Who are American soldiers "murdering"?

Quote from: Kellri;224997Offering billions in foreign aid & favors to a select 'coalition of the willing' isn't bribery??

Not the sort of bribery that the Constitution is talking about.  If you want to make bribery in that broad sense illegal, then we should put the legislative branch in jail, too, for bribing their constituents to vote for them with taxpayer money.

Quote from: Kellri;224997Establishing a secretive concentration camp off-shore to torture our enemies isn't a high crime?

It's not a concentration camp.  And while I can appreciate why you are upset about the torture issue, it's not as if what's being done wasn't legally debated and reviewed.  You can certainly disagree with it but a high crime?  No.

Quote from: Kellri;224997I did. And I consider a network from an occupying country conducting an accurate poll during a civil war in a foreign country to be absurd. How was the poll conducted - by telephone?? in the market?? Did they ask the thousands of Iraqis who've already fled the country for Syria and other places? Maybe they just asked the same bunch of Iraqi 'exiles' in Washington - they always know the answers.

So how do you know what the Iraqis really think?  Answer?  We don't.  You can assume all you want but I think the reduction of violence against American troops as well as local cooperation suggests that the Iraqis aren't as eager for an immediate withdrawal as you might think they are.