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Author Topic: Dune  (Read 11539 times)

Battlemaster
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Re: Dune
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2022, 04:52:09 AM »
Dune was good. I would have liked V's production values with the Lynch movie's dialog. Sadly, the most memorable line was Duncan Idabro quipping about Paul's lack of muscles. But there were a few things I didn't understand:

Why was the Baron taking a bath in crude oil?

Did Piter even have any speaking lines?

What was up with the Sardukar guy chanting, and the prisoners (?) hanging upside down?

If only Herbert had created a musical instrument in the books, and one of the main characters was an expert playing it. That would have been cool to see. I guess an NPC playing the bagpipes will work.

Imagery. Same as the bizzare "pet" the Baron had. I can't fault Villenue for going that route. Dune is a pretty funky setting*, and having a healing oil bath, or throat singing Saurdaurkar is way better than inventing "Wierding modules" and having people shoot words that blow stuff up. (Lynch Dune ref, for anyone who hasn't seen the 80's film)

*And gets funkier as the series goes on. I can't wait to see Axlotl tanks on the big screen.

Yeah, the weirding modules were a way to avoid explaining the novel's weirding way, which was a combination of martial arts and 'mind over matter'. Kinda complex concepts for some movie audiences.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Dune
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2022, 09:07:45 AM »
Dune was good. I would have liked V's production values with the Lynch movie's dialog. Sadly, the most memorable line was Duncan Idabro quipping about Paul's lack of muscles. But there were a few things I didn't understand:

Why was the Baron taking a bath in crude oil?

Did Piter even have any speaking lines?

What was up with the Sardukar guy chanting, and the prisoners (?) hanging upside down?

If only Herbert had created a musical instrument in the books, and one of the main characters was an expert playing it. That would have been cool to see. I guess an NPC playing the bagpipes will work.

Imagery. Same as the bizzare "pet" the Baron had. I can't fault Villenue for going that route. Dune is a pretty funky setting*, and having a healing oil bath, or throat singing Saurdaurkar is way better than inventing "Wierding modules" and having people shoot words that blow stuff up. (Lynch Dune ref, for anyone who hasn't seen the 80's film)

*And gets funkier as the series goes on. I can't wait to see Axlotl tanks on the big screen.

Yeah, the weirding modules were a way to avoid explaining the novel's weirding way, which was a combination of martial arts and 'mind over matter'. Kinda complex concepts for some movie audiences.
Star Wars did OK with the Force (until the prequels tried to science-up the mysticism).

Battlemaster
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Re: Dune
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2022, 09:48:28 AM »
The force was just magic.

Weirding was a little more complex.
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hedgehobbit

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Re: Dune
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2022, 12:43:50 PM »
Yeah, the weirding modules were a way to avoid explaining the novel's weirding way, which was a combination of martial arts and 'mind over matter'. Kinda complex concepts for some movie audiences.

When I first saw the movie, I was very disappointed in the use of the weirding modules, but I've since grown to tolerate them. The Voice in that movie was shown to be a sort of sci-fi sonic attack, rather than the strictly telepathic mind control of the Jedi Mind Trick. So having a device that amplifies them is nice and easy to explain. I don't think this was done to avoid confusing the audience as much as it was done to trim out description of an entirely different power in an already cut down movie.

Of course, they end up with a situation that's common in science fiction where the new super-tech weapon is less effective than modern weapons we have now.

HappyDaze

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Re: Dune
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2022, 05:17:27 PM »
The force was just magic.

Weirding was a little more complex.
It was only more complex if you gave a shit. They could have used magic for thr film with less dumb than sonic pew-pews.

Battlemaster
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Re: Dune
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2022, 06:21:46 PM »
Yeah, the weirding modules were a way to avoid explaining the novel's weirding way, which was a combination of martial arts and 'mind over matter'. Kinda complex concepts for some movie audiences.

When I first saw the movie, I was very disappointed in the use of the weirding modules, but I've since grown to tolerate them. The Voice in that movie was shown to be a sort of sci-fi sonic attack, rather than the strictly telepathic mind control of the Jedi Mind Trick. So having a device that amplifies them is nice and easy to explain. I don't think this was done to avoid confusing the audience as much as it was done to trim out description of an entirely different power in an already cut down movie.

Of course, they end up with a situation that's common in science fiction where the new super-tech weapon is less effective than modern weapons we have now.

From what I remember of DDLs dune the modules seemed pretty damn effective to me. I mean they were small, light,  easily carried and blew holes in thick stone walls easily, produced explosive shockwaves that seemed to drop several enemy troops in one shot and could be combined to bring down a large vessel in midair. I'd day for weapons a man could carry and fire on the go they were quite effective.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Dune
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2022, 08:28:19 PM »
Yeah, the weirding modules were a way to avoid explaining the novel's weirding way, which was a combination of martial arts and 'mind over matter'. Kinda complex concepts for some movie audiences.

When I first saw the movie, I was very disappointed in the use of the weirding modules, but I've since grown to tolerate them. The Voice in that movie was shown to be a sort of sci-fi sonic attack, rather than the strictly telepathic mind control of the Jedi Mind Trick. So having a device that amplifies them is nice and easy to explain. I don't think this was done to avoid confusing the audience as much as it was done to trim out description of an entirely different power in an already cut down movie.

Of course, they end up with a situation that's common in science fiction where the new super-tech weapon is less effective than modern weapons we have now.

But they also had the wierding way from the book. Stilgar mentions this when they encounter Paul and Jessica for the first time. The voice was the voice from the book, when Jessica used it on the Harkonnen guards. (A much better depiction of Voice than the Villenue version, IMO) Then they added the wierding modules on top of that... so it's not like they didn't include the concepts in the movie already.
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Battlemaster
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Re: Dune
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2022, 01:07:29 AM »
Dune was good. I would have liked V's production values with the Lynch movie's dialog. Sadly, the most memorable line was Duncan Idabro quipping about Paul's lack of muscles. But there were a few things I didn't understand:

Why was the Baron taking a bath in crude oil?

Did Piter even have any speaking lines?

What was up with the Sardukar guy chanting, and the prisoners (?) hanging upside down?

If only Herbert had created a musical instrument in the books, and one of the main characters was an expert playing it. That would have been cool to see. I guess an NPC playing the bagpipes will work.

Harkonnen was in that oil bath because of the assassination attempt. It was some sort of medical treatment. Think bacta tank.

Harkonnen is one character the movies are forbidden to do right by the novels.  He was pure evil and sadism, and the only  homosexual, as the term was used at the time, character. So he's ano no today.

Also he was a supergenius. So much so that the bene gesseritt wanted his dna in their breeding program. They sent a member to blackmail him into impregnating her, basically extorting sex. So this would make harkonnen the victim of a sex crime and a womans group the perps of one. This is of course utterly forbidden by the wokust collective, only men can commit sex crimes and only
Women can be victims.

When the first impregnation failed to produce what the gesseritt wanted they sent their witch back to extort Vladimir again. This time he drugged her to make her powerless and raped her brutally, telling her he would never be coerced by her order again.

This implies possibly that harkonnen was not just a victim of a female sex crime but in some way his rape of the gesseritt was justified. Of course in wokemerica this suggestion is absolutely intolerable.

Also, rather than just "take their lumps" the gesseritt had to have revenge on harkonnen, after he retaliated against them for essentially forcing him to have sex with them sgsinst his will. They infected him with a disease that made him get fatter and fatter all the time.

Do yeah,  harkonnen can't be done and he is in the books today. It is forbidden!
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

oggsmash

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Re: Dune
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2022, 01:29:58 PM »
Odd lefty notion? Dune's author supported centrist GOP off and on in his life, and I think he was very critical of JFK. His space-feudalism is predominantly aristocratic and militaristic. Sure, he's got elements of the anti-colonialism present in the Fremen (though I'd say there's some mixing of weird stuff, like the condemnation of AI, along with that line of thinking that of a Marxist hermeneutic of suspicion mainly in the themes related to the manipulations of the BG "seed planting" to prepare for their messiah). That hermeneutic is what bothers me most, but it's liberal enlightenment thought mixed with materialism and the cyclical Hegelianism, tracing the rise and fall of civilizations while regarding religion as a construct of the elite. That's something that trends across modern political lines, generally.

Well,  you have to remember that over the last 20 years the American right has gone completely insane and is now full bore fascist, with torchlight marches and people chanting ''JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US! '', Trump supporters calling for 'liberal genocide' and saying 'the only good Democrat is a dead democrat',  wearing ''I'd rather be Russian than Democrat! '' shirts, storming the capitol,  etc.

Basically what was the right  in the 60's-80's would be driven out of the Republican party today as ''liberal socialists! '' if is didn't leave the modern party in djsgust. Dwight D. Eisenhower would be called a communist abd a socialist for his condemnation of the military industrial complex.

So yeah,  anything that would be center right when dune was written would be called radical socialist pedophile liberal Democrat today by the current right which has gone all the way to fascist.


   You need to read some history and pull your head out of your ass.   

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Dune
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2022, 01:50:50 PM »
Dune was good. I would have liked V's production values with the Lynch movie's dialog. Sadly, the most memorable line was Duncan Idabro quipping about Paul's lack of muscles. But there were a few things I didn't understand:

Why was the Baron taking a bath in crude oil?

Did Piter even have any speaking lines?

What was up with the Sardukar guy chanting, and the prisoners (?) hanging upside down?

If only Herbert had created a musical instrument in the books, and one of the main characters was an expert playing it. That would have been cool to see. I guess an NPC playing the bagpipes will work.

Harkonnen was in that oil bath because of the assassination attempt. It was some sort of medical treatment. Think bacta tank.

Harkonnen is one character the movies are forbidden to do right by the novels.  He was pure evil and sadism, and the only  homosexual, as the term was used at the time, character. So he's ano no today.

Also he was a supergenius. So much so that the bene gesseritt wanted his dna in their breeding program. They sent a member to blackmail him into impregnating her, basically extorting sex. So this would make harkonnen the victim of a sex crime and a womans group the perps of one. This is of course utterly forbidden by the wokust collective, only men can commit sex crimes and only
Women can be victims.

When the first impregnation failed to produce what the gesseritt wanted they sent their witch back to extort Vladimir again. This time he drugged her to make her powerless and raped her brutally, telling her he would never be coerced by her order again.

This implies possibly that harkonnen was not just a victim of a female sex crime but in some way his rape of the gesseritt was justified. Of course in wokemerica this suggestion is absolutely intolerable.

Also, rather than just "take their lumps" the gesseritt had to have revenge on harkonnen, after he retaliated against them for essentially forcing him to have sex with them sgsinst his will. They infected him with a disease that made him get fatter and fatter all the time.

Do yeah,  harkonnen can't be done and he is in the books today. It is forbidden!
That's from the non-canon Brian Herbert prequel novels. They're bad fanfiction.

In the canon novels, all we learn is that a BG named Tanidia Nerus had sex with the Baron under unknown circumstances and birthed Jessica.

According to the questionably non-canon Dune Encyclopedia, she was sold to him as a concubine and later fled after becoming pregnant. In a recorded debriefing, she claims the Baron's sexual proclivities are due to narcissism (he sees the boys as an idealized version of his own childhood) and misogyny. She speculates that he also fucked his own mother before murdering her.

Frank Herbert later recanted his supposed homophobia by inserting a scene into GEOD where the characters say that homophobia is bad. Really. He was trying to apologize to his gay son he previously disowned. Said son later died of AIDS.

If Frank Herbert was alive now, he'd probably agree with sanitizing the Baron.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Dune
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2022, 12:46:25 AM »
Having finally seen it myself tonight on our local on-demand channel, I was impressed as heck with the style, cinematography and music, but had serious criticisms of the script as an adaptation. As far as I'm concerned the moment anybody says "Okay," or "Right, yeah, yeah," or banters in any of the 21st-century snarky style so infuriatingly popularized by Joss Whedon (cf. most of Momoa's Duncan Idaho performance), I am drastically kicked out of the mindset of an otherworldly future. Whatever mistakes Lynch's Dune made, at least they didn't do that. The pacing also felt off -- the scenes which weren't in the book just didn't feel like they needed to be there, and felt like they were padding out the first half of the film.

And whatever flaws Kenneth MacMillan had in his 1984 performance as Vladimir Harkonnen, MacMillan's Baron at least felt like a person -- a crazy, addiction-ridden, polymorphously perverted person, but still human in the sense of his ambitions and his pleasures making sense on some kind of level. Stellan Skarsgard's Baron just seemed like he was So Tired of Everybody's Shit, and the rest of the Harkonnens felt so alien and unrecognizable there was no emotional punch to seeing the Atreides fall at their hands; the entire point of the feud between the Atreides and the Harkonnens is that it should feel familiar -- it's exactly the kind of irrational, personal vendetta that has bedeviled human civilization for as long as we've had it. (I freely admit that I've been spoiled by the Starks and the Lannisters for this kind of thing now, but again, Lynch's Dune at least got across that same sense of the Houses being families, of people with long histories with each other bound by strong ties of feeling -- hardly positive, on the Harkonnens' side, but still there.)

It would also have been nice to have some corresponding scene to Lynch's opening conference between the Emperor and the Guild navigator, less for the exposition than for some sense of the culture of the Imperium outside Caladan and Arrakis. The visible decadence of the Emperor's court and Giedi Prime -- even of Caladan, if to a considerably more tasteful degree -- is needed to help make Dune's sheer stark aridity really hit you by contrast, and to give some sense of why the Fremen cosmic jihad is necessary to shake up the stagnating Imperium. It feels like Villeneuve and his crew were so focused on getting the details of Dune itself right that they lost sight of the larger picture of the story.

None of which is to say I won't watch the second half when it comes out. But if disappointment is the primary prerequisite for the Curmudgeon's Club I'm saddened to realize I'm in no danger of getting kicked out yet.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 04:00:39 PM by Stephen Tannhauser »
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Dune
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2022, 01:24:29 AM »
None of which is not to say I won't watch the second half when it comes out.

I'm on the fence. Villenue's Dune really hasn't stuck with me. I have no desire to watch it again, and the few bits that are memorable aren't the story or performances. More like the little details he got right. But that's not enough to make the story compelling to me.



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David Johansen

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Re: Dune
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2022, 12:31:21 AM »
I keep thinking there's no way they'd have thrown lasgun fire around so indiscriminately in the books.  Not a chance, shields are ubiquitous and you're gonna hit one and every house in the landsrad is going to shriek "NUKE" and hit the button.  Oh well, it was pretty.  I suspect the second part will take more liberties as we see Duncan Idaho alive and with the Fremen after he dies.  My guess is that they'll introduce him as the ghola Hayt to set that up for Dune Messiah without having to explain the Teliexu and let's face it, how on earth can a movie explain the Teliexu?
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Omega

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Re: Dune
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2022, 05:50:22 AM »
Apparently the same director of this new new Dune is going to do Rendezvous with Rama?

Pat
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Re: Dune
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2022, 04:33:23 PM »
Just watched it. Quick impressions before I reread the thread, with more attention to potential spoilers: Surprised it ended in the middle. I thought it was a very good adaptation. Acting and casting were good. Paul felt like Paul, unlike the 80s version. Surprised that Jessica was so needy, but it does fit the character. Visuals are great. Feels very different from the other cinematic sf universes. Got a sense of scope and solemnity. I'm don't think people who are unfamiliar with the books will get much from it. For instance, Dr. Yueh's betrayal.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 04:44:05 PM by Pat »