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Author Topic: Dune  (Read 1239 times)

Trond

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Dune
« on: October 24, 2021, 12:20:44 AM »
Well….. that was pretty darn good actually. Very respectful to the novel. Reports that it had been made politically correct or “Hollywoodized” are highly exaggerated. Cinematography, how do I put this; fantastic. the cinematography was some of the best I’ve ever seen.

My only concern is that it was much easier to follow for me, who read the book years ago, but my wife and her friend often looked bewildered, though they enjoyed the special effects and all.  So maybe it’s mostly good for the fans? 🤔

What do you think?

Ratman_tf

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Re: Dune
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2021, 06:10:26 AM »
https://www.therpgsite.com/media-inspiration/duneneuve-novel-spoilers!/

I've had a day to process.
I think it looked great, the acting, aside from a few standouts, was weak. Especially Paul and Jessica, who had to carry the second half of the movie, and IMO didn't manage it.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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hedgehobbit

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Re: Dune
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2021, 12:21:48 PM »
Reports that it had been made politically correct or “Hollywoodized” are highly exaggerated.

Considering the book is already a leftist fairy tale, it doesn't take too much additional political correctness to push it over the top. Like adding hot sauce to hot wings.

Starglyte

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Re: Dune
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2021, 12:23:30 PM »
The movie was long but did not feel long to me. I thought it was faithful to the book (though I have not read Dune in years). Looking forward to part 2 and see where they go.

Trond

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Re: Dune
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 02:57:50 PM »

Considering the book is already a leftist fairy tale, it doesn't take too much additional political correctness to push it over the top. Like adding hot sauce to hot wings.

I can't say I remember any leftist propaganda in the book or the film. It's been many years since I read the book though.

soundchaser

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Re: Dune
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 11:11:59 PM »
Odd lefty notion? Dune's author supported centrist GOP off and on in his life, and I think he was very critical of JFK. His space-feudalism is predominantly aristocratic and militaristic. Sure, he's got elements of the anti-colonialism present in the Fremen (though I'd say there's some mixing of weird stuff, like the condemnation of AI, along with that line of thinking that of a Marxist hermeneutic of suspicion mainly in the themes related to the manipulations of the BG "seed planting" to prepare for their messiah). That hermeneutic is what bothers me most, but it's liberal enlightenment thought mixed with materialism and the cyclical Hegelianism, tracing the rise and fall of civilizations while regarding religion as a construct of the elite. That's something that trends across modern political lines, generally.

ChrisFox

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Re: Dune
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 11:14:24 PM »
Well….. that was pretty darn good actually. Very respectful to the novel. Reports that it had been made politically correct or “Hollywoodized” are highly exaggerated. Cinematography, how do I put this; fantastic. the cinematography was some of the best I’ve ever seen.

My only concern is that it was much easier to follow for me, who read the book years ago, but my wife and her friend often looked bewildered, though they enjoyed the special effects and all.  So maybe it’s mostly good for the fans? 🤔

What do you think?

I really, really enjoyed Dune, but saw the same reaction with people not familiar with the book. Of course, I saw exactly the same reaction when those same people watched Fellowship of the Ring. Once the extended edition and the rest of the movies were available the early criticism died down, and now it's considered a classic.

Hopefully it's the same with Dune. 7th grade Chris was very, very excited to see it all come to life exactly as I imagined.


soundchaser

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Re: Dune
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2021, 11:21:57 PM »
https://www.therpgsite.com/media-inspiration/duneneuve-novel-spoilers!/

I've had a day to process.
I think it looked great, the acting, aside from a few standouts, was weak. Especially Paul and Jessica, who had to carry the second half of the movie, and IMO didn't manage it.

I am ambivalent about the acting. That section of the movie and the novel both have a sort of muted feel, something minimalist and grim, with a tone of spiritual "balance." I think, among the other movie attempts, this one did a better job skating in a difficult tension. Jessica comes off as a BG adept and pretty fierce balanced with calm. I loved Rebecca Ferguson's restrained effort. I don't have a verdict on Chalamet. It's very tough thing to do in a new way, this reluctant hero, coming of age, stuff. It's been done so poorly in the past though, and in this film, one gets the idea that past mistakes are known and they're trying to avoid them.

Trond

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Re: Dune
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 12:04:49 AM »
I sometimes get the feeling that some people read a different Dune than me, which is of course down to personal interpretations and such. But I felt the actors, and specifically the main actor, gave a “feel” very similar to how I read the book. Some people read him as more decidedly heroic and then feel left down by the following volumes in the series. I was never one of those people (I actually always really enjoyed Dune Messiah for instance)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Dune
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 12:28:18 AM »
Odd lefty notion? Dune's author supported centrist GOP off and on in his life, and I think he was very critical of JFK. His space-feudalism is predominantly aristocratic and militaristic. Sure, he's got elements of the anti-colonialism present in the Fremen (though I'd say there's some mixing of weird stuff, like the condemnation of AI, along with that line of thinking that of a Marxist hermeneutic of suspicion mainly in the themes related to the manipulations of the BG "seed planting" to prepare for their messiah). That hermeneutic is what bothers me most, but it's liberal enlightenment thought mixed with materialism and the cyclical Hegelianism, tracing the rise and fall of civilizations while regarding religion as a construct of the elite. That's something that trends across modern political lines, generally.

“Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It’s true! Liberal governments always develop into aristocracies. The bureaucracies betray the true intent of people who form such governments. Right from the first, the little people who formed the governments which promised to equalize the social burdens found themselves suddenly in the hands of bureaucratic aristocracies. Of course, all bureaucracies follow this pattern, but what a hypocrisy to find this even under a communized banner. Ahhh, well, if patterns teach me anything it’s that patterns are repeated. My oppressions, by and large, are no worse than any of the others and, at least, I teach a new lesson.   —”

― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

hedgehobbit

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Re: Dune
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 10:46:23 AM »
Some people read him as more decidedly heroic and then feel left down by the following volumes in the series. I was never one of those people (I actually always really enjoyed Dune Messiah for instance)

I thought Dune Messiah was ok but the books took a serious downturn in quality after that one. I read all the Dune sequels one after another and the change in writing style was very noticeable. It was almost as the last few books were written by someone else. I read many interviews with Frank Herbert (I did my high school term paper on Dune) and it was clear that he didn't want to make sequels and was a bit upset that his non-Dune books didn't sell as well. Some of the stuff he added into those later book feel like he's just trolling the Dune fans; such as Leto Jr making a worm suit or him cloning one of the characters from the first book and riding him around like he's Master Blaster.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 11:01:08 AM by hedgehobbit »

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Dune
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2021, 01:57:12 PM »
Odd lefty notion? Dune's author supported centrist GOP off and on in his life, and I think he was very critical of JFK. His space-feudalism is predominantly aristocratic and militaristic. Sure, he's got elements of the anti-colonialism present in the Fremen (though I'd say there's some mixing of weird stuff, like the condemnation of AI, along with that line of thinking that of a Marxist hermeneutic of suspicion mainly in the themes related to the manipulations of the BG "seed planting" to prepare for their messiah). That hermeneutic is what bothers me most, but it's liberal enlightenment thought mixed with materialism and the cyclical Hegelianism, tracing the rise and fall of civilizations while regarding religion as a construct of the elite. That's something that trends across modern political lines, generally.
Judging by how controlling big tech is right now, Frank's prohibition on thinking machines is pretty prophetic. It wasn't that machines were evil and would rebel (which is idiotic considering that machines can only ever do what we design them to, they're not living things capable of evolving on their own), the danger was that they made people lazy and easy to control by big tech tycoons.

I thought Dune Messiah was ok but the books took a serious downturn in quality after that one. I read all the Dune sequels one after another and the change in writing style was very noticeable. It was almost as the last few books were written by someone else. I read many interviews with Frank Herbert (I did my high school term paper on Dune) and it was clear that he didn't want to make sequels and was a bit upset that his non-Dune books didn't sell as well. Some of the stuff he added into those later book feel like he's just trolling the Dune fans; such as Leto Jr making a worm suit or him cloning one of the characters from the first book and riding him around like he's Master Blaster.
The sequels also take places thousands of years after the first trilogy, so things have changed a lot.

At least they're better than those awful Anderson fanfics that completely miss the messages of the originals.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Dune
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2021, 02:00:02 PM »
Odd lefty notion? Dune's author supported centrist GOP off and on in his life, and I think he was very critical of JFK. His space-feudalism is predominantly aristocratic and militaristic. Sure, he's got elements of the anti-colonialism present in the Fremen (though I'd say there's some mixing of weird stuff, like the condemnation of AI, along with that line of thinking that of a Marxist hermeneutic of suspicion mainly in the themes related to the manipulations of the BG "seed planting" to prepare for their messiah). That hermeneutic is what bothers me most, but it's liberal enlightenment thought mixed with materialism and the cyclical Hegelianism, tracing the rise and fall of civilizations while regarding religion as a construct of the elite. That's something that trends across modern political lines, generally.
Judging by how controlling big tech is right now, Frank's prohibition on thinking machines is pretty prophetic. It wasn't that machines were evil and would rebel (which is idiotic considering that machines can only ever do what we design them to, they're not living things capable of evolving on their own), the danger was that they made people lazy and easy to control by big tech tycoons.

I thought Dune Messiah was ok but the books took a serious downturn in quality after that one. I read all the Dune sequels one after another and the change in writing style was very noticeable. It was almost as the last few books were written by someone else. I read many interviews with Frank Herbert (I did my high school term paper on Dune) and it was clear that he didn't want to make sequels and was a bit upset that his non-Dune books didn't sell as well. Some of the stuff he added into those later book feel like he's just trolling the Dune fans; such as Leto Jr making a worm suit or him cloning one of the characters from the first book and riding him around like he's Master Blaster.
The sequels also take places thousands of years after the first trilogy, so things have changed a lot.

At least they're better than those awful Anderson fanfics that completely miss the messages of the originals.
This comic seems oddly appropriate for that conclusion. :)

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15

caldrail

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Re: Dune
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2021, 02:29:21 PM »
I notice that many people seem baffled by Dune. Personally I never had a problem. I loved the novel, loved the David Lynch film, especially for its consistent style. I remember going to the cinema to watch that film with some friends - none of them had a problem with it. There was a epic performance from my mother once as the film came on television, constantly asking me what was that, what was going on, but she was a technophobe, almost medieval in mindset, and well outside her comfort zone though I suspect she was deliberately trying my patience.

The story seems to sit well with people who think about things naturally. Those with superficial or narcissistic behaviour just see imagery and fail to understand anything about it, expecting obvious clues and sentiments rather than almost spiritual concepts and innermost thoughts.

I haven't seen the new Dune film yet but I will do.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Dune
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2021, 02:46:45 PM »
This comic seems oddly appropriate for that conclusion. :)

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15
Seen it. There are countless reviews of the Andershit books criticizing them for missing the message of the originals, being ridiculously gory, getting basic details about the setting wrong multiple times, declaring the original books non-canon by claiming they're in-universe propaganda (which makes no sense), etc.

Dune was basically cyberpunk before there was cyberpunk. I suspect that it may have influence the future cyberpunk genre, or at least influenced the Schismatrix anthology which deals with the philosophical conflict between cyberpunks and biopunks.

I hope the Andershit books don't get adapted. Or at least if they are adapted, they get the hatred they deserve and Warner Bros goes 180 on continuing them. What Andershit did was worse than what Sony did to Starship Troopers. At least Sony hired people who outright admitted to hating the source material (despite admitting to never reading it). Andershit thinks his shitty fanfics are better than the source material to the point he declared the originals non-canon. How fucking arrogant can you get?

The Herbert Estate are also stupid assholes who denied GOG.com rights to sell the old Dune video games because they think "if it's old it should stay old," despite profiting off a book written by their dead ancestors decades ago.

This is why I am opposed to current ridiculous copyright lengths. It's very clear that these holding companies have no fucking clue how to maintain the IPs they inherited from their betters, or how to improve initially substandard but potentially promising IPs (they do exist) into something that can stand the test of time.

The Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR, the Herbert Estate is sabotaging Dune, Sony is sabotaging SST, Games Workshop is sabotaging Warhammer, Blizzard is sabotaging its ripoffs of Warhammer, Disney is sabotaging Star Wars, Paramount is sabotaging Star Trek, BBC is sabotaging Doctor Who, etc.