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Dune

Started by Trond, October 24, 2021, 12:20:44 AM

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Wrath of God

#15
October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"

"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Neoplatonist1

#16
October 25, 2021, 08:33:18 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on October 24, 2021, 12:21:48 PM
Quote from: Trond on October 24, 2021, 12:20:44 AM
Reports that it had been made politically correct or "Hollywoodized" are highly exaggerated.

Considering the book is already a leftist fairy tale, it doesn't take too much additional political correctness to push it over the top. Like adding hot sauce to hot wings.

In your eyes, what makes it a leftist fairy tale?

Pat

#17
October 25, 2021, 10:38:03 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on October 25, 2021, 10:46:23 AM
Quote from: Trond on October 25, 2021, 12:04:49 AM
Some people read him as more decidedly heroic and then feel left down by the following volumes in the series. I was never one of those people (I actually always really enjoyed Dune Messiah for instance)

I thought Dune Messiah was ok but the books took a serious downturn in quality after that one. I read all the Dune sequels one after another and the change in writing style was very noticeable. It was almost as the last few books were written by someone else. I read many interviews with Frank Herbert (I did my high school term paper on Dune) and it was clear that he didn't want to make sequels and was a bit upset that his non-Dune books didn't sell as well. Some of the stuff he added into those later book feel like he's just trolling the Dune fans; such as Leto Jr making a worm suit or him cloning one of the characters from the first book and riding him around like he's Master Blaster.
I think God-Emperor is the second best book in the series, after Dune itself. It worked because it was the logical extrapolation of the first book, while taking the universe in a radically different direction. Messiah and Children were just the same old same old.

Trond

#18
October 25, 2021, 10:38:46 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on October 25, 2021, 10:46:23 AM
Quote from: Trond on October 25, 2021, 12:04:49 AM
Some people read him as more decidedly heroic and then feel left down by the following volumes in the series. I was never one of those people (I actually always really enjoyed Dune Messiah for instance)

I thought Dune Messiah was ok but the books took a serious downturn in quality after that one. I read all the Dune sequels one after another and the change in writing style was very noticeable. It was almost as the last few books were written by someone else. I read many interviews with Frank Herbert (I did my high school term paper on Dune) and it was clear that he didn't want to make sequels and was a bit upset that his non-Dune books didn't sell as well. Some of the stuff he added into those later book feel like he's just trolling the Dune fans; such as Leto Jr making a worm suit or him cloning one of the characters from the first book and riding him around like he's Master Blaster.

I actually thought that God Emperor of Dune was one of the best. I guess we just don't agree on this :D
Although I also remember being unable to finish anything past that one. So I guess I have read four books in the series.

BoxCrayonTales

#19
October 26, 2021, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
Look at the recent video games and upcoming TV show where the contractors clearly don't care to adhere to the lore. They're just using the brand name for clout, and the Estate doesn't care to maintain the lore.

HappyDaze

#20
October 26, 2021, 09:07:42 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2021, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
Look at the recent video games and upcoming TV show where the contractors clearly don't care to adhere to the lore. They're just using the brand name for clout, and the Estate doesn't care to maintain the lore.
So the whole Star Wars sequel trilogy tragedy replayed?

Trond

#21
October 26, 2021, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2021, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
Look at the recent video games and upcoming TV show where the contractors clearly don't care to adhere to the lore. They're just using the brand name for clout, and the Estate doesn't care to maintain the lore.

Hard to tell how much the estate is to blame.

As far as I understand it: Part of the issue is that the Tolkien Estate does not have full control of everything in his name. Tolkien himself sold the movie rights to the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit (to pay for his house I believe). But the estate has kept tight control on everything Silmarillion-related. So Hollywood and Amazon ( wanting to milk that money cow) have to come up with stuff while avoiding Silmarillion.

soundchaser

#22
October 26, 2021, 11:11:35 AM
Quote from: Trond on October 26, 2021, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2021, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
Look at the recent video games and upcoming TV show where the contractors clearly don't care to adhere to the lore. They're just using the brand name for clout, and the Estate doesn't care to maintain the lore.

Hard to tell how much the estate is to blame.

As far as I understand it: Part of the issue is that the Tolkien Estate does not have full control of everything in his name. Tolkien himself sold the movie rights to the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit (to pay for his house I believe). But the estate has kept tight control on everything Silmarillion-related. So Hollywood and Amazon ( wanting to milk that money cow) have to come up with stuff while avoiding Silmarillion.

Amazon has set at least the first series (8 episode, but I think all of the work they are doing is...) in the 2nd Age. T-Enterprises has rights to 3rd age and the estate holds, for now, 1st Age, granting to Amazon the 2nd Age for $250m. There is some evidence that links to New Line exist in order to allow for some material to be borrowed from the LOTR movies (Hobbit? hoping little is seen as useful, actually!! but that is a rabbit hole of its own, tragic but understandable as a botch). There are over 3,400 years of 2nd Age available... I've seen some buzz that "young Aragorn" is a feasible character in one of the series plot lines.

Banjo Destructo

#23
October 27, 2021, 02:51:35 PM
Saw the movie over the weekend. I enjoyed it. I listened to the audio book version of the books, listend up to but not including chapterhouse dune.  Weird series.  Would be funny to keep seeing Jason mamoa come back over and over as a tortured clone duncan idaho if they got up to like.. what? 6 movies in the series.

jhkim

#24
October 27, 2021, 03:51:21 PM
I saw Dune Monday night with some friends. It was pretty and competently done, and stayed reasonably true to the book -- but I didn't think it worked well as a movie, and there was a lot of stuff that didn't work well - especially the constant whispering and wacky vision montages to represent Paul's precognition.

Banjo Destructo

#25
October 27, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 27, 2021, 03:51:21 PM
I saw Dune Monday night with some friends. It was pretty and competently done, and stayed reasonably true to the book -- but I didn't think it worked well as a movie, and there was a lot of stuff that didn't work well - especially the constant whispering and wacky vision montages to represent Paul's precognition.
I will admit, the vision stuff kinda matches more with the feel of the second book, where he's basically paralyzed with not knowing what to do because of all the visions he keeps having.

Ratman_tf

#26
October 27, 2021, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 27, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 27, 2021, 03:51:21 PM
I saw Dune Monday night with some friends. It was pretty and competently done, and stayed reasonably true to the book -- but I didn't think it worked well as a movie, and there was a lot of stuff that didn't work well - especially the constant whispering and wacky vision montages to represent Paul's precognition.
I will admit, the vision stuff kinda matches more with the feel of the second book, where he's basically paralyzed with not knowing what to do because of all the visions he keeps having.

Yeah. The first book, Paul is willing to weaponize the Fremen to his cause, and kick everyone's ass. The 2nd and 3rd books go into how the Jihad and his empire building weigh heavily on him.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Trond

#27
October 28, 2021, 11:05:40 AM
On the acting and personality (or lack thereof): this may sound weird but it think even this was close to the source material. What struck me when I read the books was not the personalities, but the weird and interesting setting, some of the philosophical musings etc.

Ghostmaker

#28
November 01, 2021, 07:59:16 AM
Quote from: Trond on October 26, 2021, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2021, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 25, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteThe Tolkien Estate is sabotaging LotR,

Is it?
Look at the recent video games and upcoming TV show where the contractors clearly don't care to adhere to the lore. They're just using the brand name for clout, and the Estate doesn't care to maintain the lore.

Hard to tell how much the estate is to blame.

As far as I understand it: Part of the issue is that the Tolkien Estate does not have full control of everything in his name. Tolkien himself sold the movie rights to the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit (to pay for his house I believe). But the estate has kept tight control on everything Silmarillion-related. So Hollywood and Amazon ( wanting to milk that money cow) have to come up with stuff while avoiding Silmarillion.
Part of the problem is that Christopher Tolkien passed away. He was J.R.R.'s son and had, up till then, kept things on an even keel.

However, since his passing, there's less interest in sticking to canon. The Shadow of War games are explicitly a 'what if', scenario, but at least cleave to important things (and are interesting even outside of the theme -- the nemesis system fascinated me). But I am deeply concerned with Amazon dropping a Cleveland steamer all over the franchise with their upcoming projects.

Aglondir

#29
November 10, 2021, 10:09:45 PM Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 10:12:23 PM by Aglondir
Dune was good. I would have liked V's production values with the Lynch movie's dialog. Sadly, the most memorable line was Duncan Idabro quipping about Paul's lack of muscles. But there were a few things I didn't understand:

Why was the Baron taking a bath in crude oil?

Did Piter even have any speaking lines?

What was up with the Sardukar guy chanting, and the prisoners (?) hanging upside down?

If only Herbert had created a musical instrument in the books, and one of the main characters was an expert playing it. That would have been cool to see. I guess an NPC playing the bagpipes will work.



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