Do any of you have direct dealings, or have you had direct or indirect dealings with the nation of Islam? I have been trying to explain to my wife, with out as much of my bias as I can, what the Nation of Islam believes, and why, and what I've seen in reality when dealing with them.

She has, until recently never directly encountered any one associated with the Nation of Islam.

They used to believe all kinds of crazy shit that had nothing to do with real islam, mostly taught by their founder (with whom the "islam" part was largely just a facade for his own teachings); the claim is that the founder, Elijah Muhammed, spoke personally with Allah (something that would immediately count as heresy in traditional Islam), who gave him "special secret teachings".

So they thought that Black people, who were the original race and genetically superior to all other races (this goes absolutely against the Muslim belief in the equality and brotherhood of all peoples), once had a super-advanced civilization (so advanced that they created special UFOs that created mountains), but that an evil mad scientist created a genetically inferior race, the white man, who was only better at manipulation, but through that manipulation managed to destroy that entire civilization and enslave the black man until now.

After the death of Elijah Muhammed, most of the nation of Islam at that time underwent a reformation (as indeed people like Malcolm X were attempting to do beforehand) and ended up renaming itself and falling into more mainstream muslim practices and beliefs. However, a MUCH smaller branch, run by Louis Farrakhan, refused to go along; their claim is that Elijah Muhammed didn't die, and was instead transported onto a spaceship from which he still oversees and teaches his "successor" Farrakhan (Elijah had never made Farrakhan his successor in fact), and they claim that the other ex-leaders who abandoned the loonier teachings of the Nation of Islam are traitors to the cause.

RPGPundit

I believe that the Southern Poverty Law Center has them listed as a hate group. You might want to check their entry on them and show that to your wife.

Pundit's got much of it right, they're racist nutjobs with beliefs that make scientology look like it really is an ology.

On the other hand, they've succeed in giving people a sense of dignity and brotherhood in some fucked up areas, so there is some good to be said for it, but they're separate racists who have more in common with White supremacist groups than the Moslem community.

And they're about as Islamic as the Dalai Llama.

Of course, actual Islam wasn't quite that egalitarian at any given point in time either.  After all, Arabic is the language of God, which has a not so subtle implication that those who spoke other languages are debased.

That said, as long as you were not an unbeliever or an idol worshipper, at any given point in Islamic history, life was pretty good no matter who you were.  

Of course, when Islam... er... came into being... it was pretty radical, but like most contemporary religions you couldn't seperate it from the local culture/ethnic group that gave birth to it. The decision to allow non-arabs to convert to Islam was a late addition made after the death of Muhammed, and was considered quite radical.  The Pundit can either confirm or smack me down on this, but I understand early christianity had the same sort of early debate: were the teachings of Christ meant for just the Jews, or for all men?

Obviously both faiths went the same way, and that departure from traditional views allowed both faiths to become the juggernauts they eventually became.

Yeah I have dealt extensively with the NOI, and other Mulanic style gangs in my line of work pretty extensively.

Michigan is actually a really big breeding ground for Islamic radicals, and pseudo-Islamic radicals.

Quote from: SpikeOf course, actual Islam wasn't quite that egalitarian at any given point in time either.  After all, Arabic is the language of God, which has a not so subtle implication that those who spoke other languages are debased.

That said, as long as you were not an unbeliever or an idol worshipper, at any given point in Islamic history, life was pretty good no matter who you were.  

Of course, when Islam... er... came into being... it was pretty radical, but like most contemporary religions you couldn't seperate it from the local culture/ethnic group that gave birth to it. The decision to allow non-arabs to convert to Islam was a late addition made after the death of Muhammed, and was considered quite radical.  

That's not exactly true, Spike.  I think that what you're thinking of is the Umayyad dynasty of Caliphs, who imposed a political and religious policy that to become a muslim you first had to be formally adopted into one of the Arab tribes. This was a means of social control more than anything.

But BEFORE the Umayyads, and of course after they were overthrown, the common understanding was that all human beings are equally open to becoming Muslims. Mohammed was pretty clear in that the word of Allah was for all men.

And the response against the Umayyads was hardly considered radical; and the Abbasids, the dynasty that overthrew and eventually replaced the Umayyads, were descendants of Mohammed.

It is, on the contrary, the view of the Umayyads that was radically disconnected from real Islamic values, and why to this day many muslims think of them as a corrupt and sinful dynasty.

QuoteThe Pundit can either confirm or smack me down on this, but I understand early christianity had the same sort of early debate: were the teachings of Christ meant for just the Jews, or for all men?

Now here, you're right.  There was a big debate between Paul, who thought that his teaching about a Resurrected Jesus was for everyone, and absolutely every other disciple, who believed that Jesus' teachings about Judaism were, obviously, for Jews.

RPGPundit

Oh, the Nation of Islam...they're special.

My High School principal was the SW regional VP of it. A very interesting man.

1. A dead ringer for Samuel Jackson.
2. Dressed like an undercover pimp.
3. Referred to himself in the third person.

Spring of my Junior year he was suspended from his post due to accusation of financial irregularities, sexual indescretion, etc, etc. Local community FLIPS OUT and accused the district of racism. This was funny because his replacement/boss and most of his subordinates were black!

So the NOI and New Black Panthers show up to "protest" (ie walk around adjacent to school property with suspicious bulges beneath their trenchcoats) and create a huge media circus.

In the end, the Liberal Arts program at the school (and me with it) moved to its own campus while the principal was reinstated. A year later he replaced his Mom on the state school board so she could run for State House. Ugh.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not exactly true, Spike.  I think that what you're thinking of is the Umayyad dynasty of Caliphs, who imposed a political and religious policy that to become a muslim you first had to be formally adopted into one of the Arab tribes. This was a means of social control more than anything.

But BEFORE the Umayyads, and of course after they were overthrown, the common understanding was that all human beings are equally open to becoming Muslims. Mohammed was pretty clear in that the word of Allah was for all men.

And the response against the Umayyads was hardly considered radical; and the Abbasids, the dynasty that overthrew and eventually replaced the Umayyads, were descendants of Mohammed.

It is, on the contrary, the view of the Umayyads that was radically disconnected from real Islamic values, and why to this day many muslims think of them as a corrupt and sinful dynasty.


RPGPundit

I'll have to take your word for the attitude the Islamic world has towards the Umayyads.  My understanding of the situation was that prior to then, Islam, such as it was, wasn't really spreading around beyond the arab world, thus no real thought was put into wether or not non-arabs could join the Ummah, which was Mohammed's 'tribe of humanity'.  Recall that Medina, at the time, was essentially a Jewish-Arab community, and as I understand, no effort was made to integrate the Jewish people into the Ummah.

Of course, Since I have only one source for my history, and that being from an Iranian (Shite) scholar, there may be some subtle bias I am missing as well.  Certainly the early Caliphs (right title? Crap, can't recall off hand...) were not portrayed in the most flattering light.

Jews are NEVER pushed into converting, because like Christians they are already considered a "people of the Book". They're certainly welcome to convert, but no special effort will be made to try to "integrate" them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditJews are NEVER pushed into converting, because like Christians they are already considered a "people of the Book". They're certainly welcome to convert, but no special effort will be made to try to "integrate" them.

RPGPundit

Really? I mean, according the Koran, the Jews and Christians, while respected for being 'people of the Book' have got it all wrong, which means they are to be pitied (and, I think, enlightened... eg converted.)  I mean, its been a while, and while the poetic nature of the writing may have mass appeal, it hardly makes it easy to grasp what the 'hard and fast' rules are meant to be.

Of course, I haven't bothered to read the Koran for... five? years now, so I may be forgeting something.

Now: Old Testament style, I remember a specific injunction against proseletyzing, though not against conversions (if a Gentile has dinner with you, or is a guest do not speak to him about religion, if he asks, however, you may... or words to that effect).

Then again, the Koran, while held as the 'word of Allah direct to Mohammed' wasn't actually compiled until years after his death. (Fourth Caliph?  Degenerate bastard of a Caliph except for that one act...  what WAS his name... eh, whatever, unimportant.) which makes it a poor source for what Mohammed actually taught on a day to day basis in some regards.   I won't go into the Haditha's, though I have a set I haven't got around to reading yet.  Those damn things are more or less historical propaganda from what I know.