Quote from: yancy;1111521Yeah, I've seen it and it's total garbage, possibly the worst piece of shit I've had the misfortune of viewing, bad on every conceivable level. Seriously.

How about you? You seen it?

Do you really think it's worse than Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Black Lightning, or Losers of Tomorrow? I'm certainly not saying those shows are great (or even good), but I will say that Batwoman fits right in the middle of the CW pack.

Quote from: yancy;1111521Yeah, I've seen it and it's total garbage, possibly the worst piece of shit I've had the misfortune of viewing, bad on every conceivable level. Seriously.

How about you? You seen it?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111554Do you really think it's worse than Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Black Lightning, or Losers of Tomorrow? I'm certainly not saying those shows are great (or even good), but I will say that Batwoman fits right in the middle of the CW pack.

I would say that it's below average for the CW, but yes, the same kind of tired shit. A soap opera with a very thin coat of superhero.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111557I would say that it's below average for the CW, but yes, the same kind of tired shit. A soap opera with a very thin coat of superhero.

What would a weekly series that was superhero without soap opera elements even look like? Serious question, because fight scenes and special effects are going to get boring quick, and possibly too expensive if done right (or just a turn off if done cheaply). It's also hard to do continuing season-long storylines without looking like soap opera, and if you don't go with such storylines, many viewers will not get pulled in to watch 20+ self-contained episodes with limited character interaction and minimal growth.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111559What would a weekly series that was superhero without soap opera elements even look like? Serious question, because fight scenes and special effects are going to get boring quick, and possibly too expensive if done right (or just a turn off if done cheaply). It's also hard to do continuing season-long storylines without looking like soap opera, and if you don't go with such storylines, many viewers will not get pulled in to watch 20+ self-contained episodes with limited character interaction and minimal growth.

Are you saying that the balance between soap opera and superhero is right in the CW?  Because I clearly said it's a soap opera with a very thin coat of superhero. Which isn't the same as saying there should be zero soap opera in the mix.

Edited to add:

I don't give a fuck how much it would cost to do the FX right or the costumes or the time to put them on, if you're going to do a superhero show, with established superhero characters then you have to do it right or don't do it.

Just look at the costumes of Teen Titans, cosplayers do it better. And if it takes one hour to put the costume on, I don't give a fuck, do it right or don't do it.

I'm a consumer, not gonna start making excuses for any multibillion corporation, if it's too expensive to do it right then don't do it, do a cartoon or a 3d animated series.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111564Are you saying that the balance between soap opera and superhero is right in the CW?  Because I clearly said it's a soap opera with a very thin coat of superhero. Which isn't the same as saying there should be zero soap opera in the mix.

Edited to add:

I don't give a fuck how much it would cost to do the FX right or the costumes or the time to put them on, if you're going to do a superhero show, with established superhero characters then you have to do it right or don't do it.

Just look at the costumes of Teen Titans, cosplayers do it better. And if it takes one hour to put the costume on, I don't give a fuck, do it right or don't do it.

I'm a consumer, not gonna start making excuses for any multibillion corporation, if it's too expensive to do it right then don't do it, do a cartoon or a 3d animated series.

I'm not saying they have the balance right. I'm sincerely asking for an example of what you would consider it being done right.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111569I'm not saying they have the balance right. I'm sincerely asking for an example of what you would consider it being done right.

There's none that I know about. Not from Marvel, not from DC.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111571There's none that I know about. Not from Marvel, not from DC.

Well, what would be right in your opinion?

Quote from: CarlD.;1111572Well, what would be right in your opinion?

Costumes done right, characters done right, less soap opera more superhero, zero race/gender swapping. For starters.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111571There's none that I know about. Not from Marvel, not from DC.

In that case, is it possible that you have unrealistic expectations?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111573Costumes done right, characters done right, less soap opera more superhero, zero race/gender swapping. For starters.

I'm still trying to understand what you mean by "less soap opera more superhero" when talking about these shows. What is it that makes them soap opera in your view, and is it something that has not also long appeared in the comics (e.g., I recall X-men comics being called superhero soap operas as far back as the mid-80s)?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111581I'm still trying to understand what you mean by "less soap opera more superhero" when talking about these shows. What is it that makes them soap opera in your view, and is it something that has not also long appeared in the comics (e.g., I recall X-men comics being called superhero soap operas as far back as the mid-80s)?

I mean what I wrote.

I was around back then, and buying/collecting/reading comics since before that. Go read those comics, compare them to the shows and sincerely tell yourself they are just the same.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111585I mean what I wrote.

I was around back then, and buying/collecting/reading comics since before that. Go read those comics, compare them to the shows and sincerely tell yourself they are just the same.

Since you've said that no good examples exist on TV, let's talk about the comics you want emulated. Is there a certain title during a certain time period that best represents the feel you want to see on the small screen?

Quote from: Snowman0147Not to mention how about we make a actual character with some depth that just happens to be a lesbian instead of a shallow character whose only characteristic is being a lesbian. It is not rocket science.

I don't agree with this. Not that Kate is particularly deep -- but I thought the opposite. Her being a lesbian seemed like a tacked-on part to her. Her core story is her tragic past of losing her sister and mother, and her struggle living up to her father's expectations. Her relationships to her family (father, step-sister, and sister) were the most important - and none of them make any deal out of her being lesbian. I feel like she could easily have been a man and very little would have had to be rewritten.

Quote from: HappyDazeI'm not saying they have the balance right. I'm sincerely asking for an example of what you would consider it being done right.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111573There's none that I know about. Not from Marvel, not from DC.

Quote from: CarlD.Well, what would be right in your opinion?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111573Costumes done right, characters done right, less soap opera more superhero, zero race/gender swapping. For starters.

Fair enough, but that doesn't give me a clear picture of what you're looking for. Also - I'm not familiar with the comic. Is there any race/gender swapping in the Batwoman series?

For me, I also don't know of a comic-book-based television that I particularly liked, except The Tick cartoon which was great for comedy. My favorite TV series in general is The Wire. Among the superhero series out there, the ones I enjoyed the most were probably Arrow, Jessica Jones, Supergirl, and Daredevil -- mostly based on the first season for each, since I haven't watched very far in for any of them. But all of them also had major flaws from my point of view.

Quote from: jhkim;1111588I don't agree with this. Not that Kate is particularly deep -- but I thought the opposite. Her being a lesbian seemed like a tacked-on part to her. Her core story is her tragic past of losing her sister and mother, and her struggle living up to her father's expectations. Her relationships to her family (father, step-sister, and sister) were the most important - and none of them make any deal out of her being lesbian. I feel like she could easily have been a man and very little would have had to be rewritten.





Fair enough, but that doesn't give me a clear picture of what you're looking for. Also - I'm not familiar with the comic. Is there any race/gender swapping in the Batwoman series?

For me, I also don't know of a comic-book-based television that I particularly liked, except The Tick cartoon which was great for comedy. My favorite TV series in general is The Wire. Among the superhero series out there, the ones I enjoyed the most were probably Arrow, Jessica Jones, Supergirl, and Daredevil -- mostly based on the first season for each, since I haven't watched very far in for any of them. But all of them also had major flaws from my point of view.

Did you read the whole exchange?

That part is answering as to what I want in a superhero series, not in the Batwoman series. So zero gender/race swapping in general.

But I heard somewhere that they were going to make Jim Gordon a black man? Not sure if for a movie or what.

I got all the Batwoman books since Kate took the mantle, well written comic, But they couldn't stay close to the original source, no, they had to go fuck it up. And don't get me started with her head being like a funko when in costume.

As  for the narrative that those evul istphobes fans review bombing the show because vagina/lesbian, let's not forget who it was against Ruby Rose doing the part and the fans (yes me included) argued against them.

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