Quote from: jhkim;1110042It just seemed bad on many levels, I felt based on two episodes. Wooden dialog, bad production values, indifferent direction. I hesitate to comment on the acting given how bad the dialog was.

Batwoman at least makes an effort at visual style -- it plays up a bleak post-Batman Gotham, and pulls in a bunch of angles. The plot is bland melodramatic, but the dialog was at least better (on par with the other series, it seemed to me - which isn't great). The actors managed some good moments - Dougray Scott stood out to me, and I thought Ruby Rose was decent.

Ruby Rose CAN act, it's not her fault they give her shitty scripts. I was very much waiting for the show, and was talking against the SJWs going after her for "not being lesbian enough" and other BS. Had they opted to make a superhero show and gave her some good scripts I'm convinced she can pull it off.

As it stands it's a soap opera like the rest of the CW, no better and no worse, which isn't a compliment since all of the CW is shit.

Quote from: jhkim;1110042It just seemed bad on many levels, I felt based on two episodes. Wooden dialog, bad production values, indifferent direction. I hesitate to comment on the acting given how bad the dialog was.

Batwoman at least makes an effort at visual style -- it plays up a bleak post-Batman Gotham, and pulls in a bunch of angles. The plot is bland melodramatic, but the dialog was at least better (on par with the other series, it seemed to me - which isn't great). The actors managed some good moments - Dougray Scott stood out to me, and I thought Ruby Rose was decent.

Sounds look worthy at least. Its post Batman?

Seriously how hard is it to have a super hero fight crime and have to battle against a super villain to spice things up.  Adam West and the animated series had no issues with this so why can't CW grasp it?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1110088Seriously how hard is it to have a super hero fight crime and have to battle against a super villain to spice things up.  Adam West and the animated series had no issues with this so why can't CW grasp it?

They save that for the crossovers.

What I've gathered from other thread on the show was this 1st episode was mostly set up. background and establishing characters and relationships?

Quote from: CarlD.;1110144What I've gathered from other thread on the show was this 1st episode was mostly set up. background and establishing characters and relationships?

Pretty much, and that goes for episode 2 also.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1110155Pretty much, and that goes for episode 2 also.

Yeah, as I recall Arrow was something like that too.

Quote from: Omega;1109326Massive miss. It is very Feminist Agenda'd and I am pretty damn tired of the posturing and "Im better than any man!" screed these things love to push. The advertisements for it were like they wanted it to fail. Makes no sense.

I think if you go into a super hero movie and expect the hero to be less heroic than one of the supporting characters, you've completely missed the boat.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1110395I think if you go into a super hero movie and expect the hero to be less heroic than one of the supporting characters, you've completely missed the boat.

Seems like they caught on after the debacle of the trailer and toned it down in the actual show.

But this is a recurring problem for DC adaptions. For some insane reason about every other adaption is handed off to someone who vocally despises the source. And not just DC. But they seem to do this more than Marvel or any other for a long long time. There also is this recurring trend of the new show going out of its way to offend the fans of the original. Very often deliberately.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1110395I think if you go into a super hero movie and expect the hero to be less heroic than one of the supporting characters, you've completely missed the boat.

Could you explain/expand on this comment, please?

Quote from: CarlD.;1110502Could you explain/expand on this comment, please?

You really dont want him to answer that. Trust us. :rolleyes:

Quote from: CarlD.;1110502Could you explain/expand on this comment, please?

If you see a comic title of Batman versus Superman, who's going to win?  

The answer, of course, is whoever's comic it is.  If Superman is making a guest appearance in a Batman comic, than Batman is going to win.  If Batman is making a guest appearance in a Superman comic, Superman is going to win.  

The answer of 'who is the greatest superhero' is always 'whoever is on the title.  

If you watch a Catwoman show, Catwoman is going to be the most effective character, even if someone else who is nominally more powerful makes a guest appearance.  It's partly because the narrative is going to play to the protagonist's strengths - if Superman is there, there's going to be some information that you can't get by showing up and punching people in the face - so Catwoman is going to be able to use her manipulative abilities to 'win' when Superman couldn't.  

Outside of actual heroes, of course the main character is going to be 'better' than the supporting characters.  If the supporting characters were 'better', the show would be about them.  Sometimes Albert is going to get a chance to do something awesome and they're going to follow him with the camera, but when he's doing Master Wayne's laundry in the mansion they're going to follow Batman punching Joker in the face.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1110566If you see a comic title of Batman versus Superman, who's going to win?  

The answer, of course, is whoever's comic it is.  If Superman is making a guest appearance in a Batman comic, than Batman is going to win.  If Batman is making a guest appearance in a Superman comic, Superman is going to win.  

The answer of 'who is the greatest superhero' is always 'whoever is on the title.  

If you watch a Catwoman show, Catwoman is going to be the most effective character, even if someone else who is nominally more powerful makes a guest appearance.  It's partly because the narrative is going to play to the protagonist's strengths - if Superman is there, there's going to be some information that you can't get by showing up and punching people in the face - so Catwoman is going to be able to use her manipulative abilities to 'win' when Superman couldn't.  

Outside of actual heroes, of course the main character is going to be 'better' than the supporting characters.  If the supporting characters were 'better', the show would be about them.  Sometimes Albert is going to get a chance to do something awesome and they're going to follow him with the camera, but when he's doing Master Wayne's laundry in the mansion they're going to follow Batman punching Joker in the face.

Well, there are exceptions, but generally that's accurate But as I understood the complaint it wasn't Batwoman's presentation it was some of the statement's she made "I am better than any man" and other claim in character or not that she "better than Batman (who actually is one of those characters that outdoes others in their own books..) and/or advertising/presentation that played those up. Which I can understand rubbing people the wrong way. If the ads (maybe the actual show?) for a Superboy program contained claims he was better than any woman, even Wonder Woman, there would be some negative feedback possibly worse if it was the advertising and presentation (women are presented as helpless damsels and such only).

I've read and seen plenty of stories where the main character admired, respected (even feared) so called outside characters as better, tougher, smarter, or just better than them. You see it towards Captain Marvel in the MCU films, for instance. But generally the title character does get the spotlight though that can maintain the sense of scaling. 'Mazing Man the TV show shouldn't)make him look more powerful than Superman though he is the hero because he's there, willing and heroic to do that job required not power boosted because he's name's on the show. The story is about him, but gratuitously worfing Supes would annoy me unless there was kind of plot/story driven reason for it; just don't have Supes show up. Best not to have Superman show or present a narrative that brings out his weaknesses and allow 'Mazing Man to shine and play a signifcant part.

Though perhaps I've misunderstood the complaints. From what I understand, she didn't do anything in the show so far to show she's "better than any man or even just Batman" (or likely more hand Bats/all men the idiot ball?) So it may just be poor commercials or at least ones that play to a very specific audience. It doesn't have to be because this character is a woman, but if the commercials where that blatant about it I'd say they sort of opened the door to it.

Again I don't watch CW much these day so honestly I didn't see them. And as I understand the show's setting was post Batman anyway so he wasn't in it for her to show up (For sound reasons, maybe he's getting old, shades of Batman Beyond* or handing any character with the wrong plumbing the idiot ball).

*Though I didn't feel Terry "out did" Bruce in that show, not precisely he served a role a mentor and adviser to a new rising hero taking on and continuing the legacy. I guess part of the reason there was less friction was they where both guys and no other issues of "culture war" were brought up and people seem much more touchy about the subject lately than back then.

Edit: In fairness, IME, Batman is one of the exceptions when it comes to showing up in the story and outdoing the central character. Sometimes its well presented, sometimes not.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1110395I think if you go into a super hero movie and expect the hero to be less heroic than one of the supporting characters, you've completely missed the boat.

Nice strawman you got there, you sure you can beat it to death by yourself? You don't need help from your buddies?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1110755Nice strawman you got there, you sure you can beat it to death by yourself? You don't need help from your buddies?

Speaking from an outside perspective, it seems like you both may be talking past each other to some degree.