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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Akrasia on April 06, 2008, 04:27:33 AM

Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Akrasia on April 06, 2008, 04:27:33 AM
NYT obit here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/movies/06heston.html?ref=movies

:(
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Hackmastergeneral on April 06, 2008, 09:32:44 AM
Hrm.  While he was a great actor, I was adamantly against his politics lately.  Mostly since taking over the NRA.

Godspeed, Charlton.  In heaven, God will keep the paws of those damn dirty apes off you forever.  :D
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: laffingboy on April 06, 2008, 09:34:09 AM
Aw, shit. :(
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 09:37:42 AM
Epic actor, retarded politics.

Rest in peace, he will be remembered as the legend he was.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: droog on April 06, 2008, 09:38:19 AM
(http://www.rubinville.com/dailydave/uploaded_images/moses-754231.jpg)
GOD, THESE RULES ARE SHIT!!!!!
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 06, 2008, 12:06:52 PM
You know, Charlton really kicked some ass.  They don't make actors like him anymore.  He wasn't subtle, but he was manly without being goofy.  And his dystopic trilogy (Soylent Green, Omega Man and of course Planet of the Apes) is a classic grouping in and of itself.  He gave me a great deal of viewing pleasure.  Thanks, Mr. Heston!  I hope they give you a nice gun closet up in heaven.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on April 06, 2008, 12:19:14 PM
Quote from: Cthy
Epic actor, retarded politics.



Yeah, fuck black people getting to vote!

One of the worst things about Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine was how it took one of the most adamant crusaders against racism in Hollywood, confronted him while he was mentally deranged by Alzheimer's and managed to twist his words to make him sound like a racist.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Acta Est Fabula on April 06, 2008, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
Yeah, fuck black people getting to vote!

One of the worst things about Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine was how it took one of the most adamant crusaders against racism in Hollywood, confronted him while he was mentally deranged by Alzheimer's and managed to twist his words to make him sound like a racist.


It's a shame people only remember post 1980 Charlton Heston, and not pre-1980 Heston, when he was not only a strong supporter of the Kennedy's, but one of the most outspoken crusaders of equal rights.  And for a rich white man in the late 50s/early 60s to speak so heavily against racism, that was pretty rare.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Zachary The First on April 06, 2008, 01:08:57 PM
Fuck.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 01:09:33 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
Yeah, fuck black people getting to vote!

One of the worst things about Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine was how it took one of the most adamant crusaders against racism in Hollywood, confronted him while he was mentally deranged by Alzheimer's and managed to twist his words to make him sound like a racist.


Don't be a prick, his politics dodn't just revolve around the black vote. You do a bit of good, well done you, you do some bad shit well shame on you.

His views on guns and gun ownership are widely publicised - outside of a shit Moore documentary.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 06, 2008, 01:45:01 PM
Quote from: Acta Est Fabula
It's a shame people only remember post 1980 Charlton Heston, and not pre-1980 Heston, when he was not only a strong supporter of the Kennedy's, but one of the most outspoken crusaders of equal rights.  And for a rich white man in the late 50s/early 60s to speak so heavily against racism, that was pretty rare.



Yeah - too bad if a man is more complex than the press (ot M
I also gew up watching Charlton Heston play tough guy heroes in movies - especially those three Science Fiction ones mentioned earlier.

Considering I shared half a name with him - I tended to always notice when he was in a movie.

- Ed Charlton
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Acta Est Fabula on April 06, 2008, 02:01:41 PM
Quote from: Cthy
Don't be a prick, his politics dodn't just revolve around the black vote. You do a bit of good, well done you, you do some bad shit well shame on you.

His views on guns and gun ownership are widely publicised - outside of a shit Moore documentary.


Considering his "good" things (massive player in the early civil rights movement) had a much greater impact to society than his "bad" things (if you think the pro-gun rights are bad; many don't), I get the feeling that the above post comes across as, "Ice cream sundaes suck because they have those sprinkly nuts on top." when the rest of the sundae is delicious.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 02:48:38 PM
Well true, but just because the guy is dead does not make him a saint. He carried out some fantastic acts, from charitable donations to backing civil liberties.
He also advocated private gun ownership.

Y'all see, not such a bad guy after all. :rolleyes:
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Acta Est Fabula on April 06, 2008, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Cthy
Well true, but just because the guy is dead does not make him a saint. He carried out some fantastic acts, from charitable donations to backing civil liberties.
He also advocated private gun ownership.

Y'all see, not such a bad guy after all. :rolleyes:


You're vilifying him for advocating the 2nd amendment, and wording it in a way that makes it seem that advocating private gun ownership is the negative flip side of fighting for equal rights?  You're entitled to your opinions, but there are worse things to vilify a person for.  Sure, he was a bit....over the top, but it's not like he was advocating anything that had a profound negative effect on a large group of people.  He was advocating a popular interpretation of the constitution.  Especially in the light of all the good he had done for people over his lifetime.

Unless you are, of course saying that advocating private gun ownership is the evil equivalent of fighting for equal rights.  But then you'd have to also agree, by that logic, that a person who wanted to prohibit people from owning guns would have made up for advocating apartheid and Jim Crow laws.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 03:14:14 PM
Tbh, you have a point. I think I came into this thread negatively - looking for a destructive argument rather than a constructive one. I mean, for fucks sack, the guy made Ben Hur, I have to give him respect for that. :)

I dont think your 2nd amendment is evil, just stupid. You should, however, have the right to arm bears. That should be international law.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Acta Est Fabula on April 06, 2008, 03:16:50 PM
Quote from: Cthy


I dont think your 2nd amendment is evil, just stupid. You should, however, have the right to arm bears. That should be international law.


Not only bears, but all wildlife.  I think it would definately make hunting more of a "sport" than it is now ;)
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dar on April 06, 2008, 03:51:31 PM
The very idea that arming the animals would put people and prey on a more level playing field is EXACTLY why the private ownership of guns is important.

Guns make everybody dangerous.

I think, under certain conditions, that's a good thing.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 04:02:27 PM
Gun ownership is good. Y'know, just incase that zombie uprising happens just as predicted.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dar on April 06, 2008, 04:05:47 PM
Or your government decides that police cameras are also needed in your home not just everywhere else.

Besides, didn't this very forum have a thread about the very best anti zombie weapon. Wasn't it the crowbar?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dansebie on April 06, 2008, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: Koltar
Yeah - too bad if a man is more complex than the press (ot M


No. He completely changed his political affiliation in the 70s or early 80s.

I don't see why everyone is so focused on his involvement with the NRA when he sat on the advisory board of Accuracy in Media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media). If anything highlights his fucking disgusting politics, it's that.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 06, 2008, 04:10:34 PM
Yeah...and again people are getting too hung up on one issue.
 Look at the totality of the man's life and his career.


- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 04:26:19 PM
Thats some great gloss paint you have there. :D
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 06, 2008, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: dansebie
I don't see why everyone is so focused on his involvement with the NRA when he sat on the advisory board of Accuracy in Media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media). If anything highlights his fucking disgusting politics, it's that.


So what's so awful about AIM that's not true of, say, it's left-wing counterpart FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting)?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 06, 2008, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Acta Est Fabula
Unless you are, of course saying that advocating private gun ownership is the evil equivalent of fighting for equal rights


As several pamphlets and essays that aren't too difficult to find online, there were no shortage of gun control laws in the Jim Crow South designed to prevent blacks from being able to defend themselves against white mobs and that, in a nutshell, is why I support gun ownership rights regardless of the second amendment.  The right to self-defense is one of the most fundamental rights and a gun allows an individual to stand up to a mob.  Otherwise, mob rules.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Drew on April 06, 2008, 04:54:10 PM
Ah yes, that must be why we English are continually being overrun by mobs. Damned pesky things, always where you least expect 'em.  ;)
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dar on April 06, 2008, 04:58:49 PM
are they zombie mobs?

the paint is purple.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dansebie on April 06, 2008, 05:19:05 PM
Quote from: John Morrow
So what's so awful about AIM that's not true of, say, it's left-wing counterpart FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting)?


What the hell does FAIR have to do with anything?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Spike on April 06, 2008, 05:28:18 PM
I could explain it to you, but that would require opening a dialog with you, and in 22 posts I can already see I don't really want to bother...
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 06, 2008, 05:38:47 PM
I hate it when you are out shopping and all of a sudden a mob appears and ruins your day. Its just not cricket!
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 06, 2008, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: dansebie
What the hell does FAIR have to do with anything?


AIM and FAIR are two sides of the same coin.  Is there something other than their partisanship that makes you call AIM "disgusting"?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: dansebie on April 06, 2008, 05:46:38 PM
Quote from: Spike
I could explain it to you, but that would require opening a dialog with you, and in 22 posts I can already see I don't really want to bother...


Pointing to the other guy and saying "they're doing it, too!" is just juvenile.
When AIM denies global warming, props up the manufactured links between Al-Qaeda and Iraq and presents intelligent design as a scientific theory, that's bad no matter what FAIR is doing.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 06, 2008, 06:01:35 PM
Quote from: Cthy
I hate it when you are out shopping and all of a sudden a mob appears and ruins your day. Its just not cricket!

You don't think people can get abducted and murdered while out shopping?  It doesn't even take a mob.  Ask Gail Shollar.  Oh, wait.  You can't.  She was abducted, raped, and murdered from a suburban supermarket parking lot that's within walking distance of my house in 1992.  Or if you want something more recent, how about being attacked by a mob while riding the subway. (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080403_4_more_teens_arrested_in_fatal_subway_attack__sixth_sought.html)  Go ahead.  Tell me how the victims were to blame.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on April 06, 2008, 06:29:54 PM
I'm gonna duck the man's politics and do my own research.  Until then, may the dude rest in peace, 'cause he was a good actor and made his manly mark.

Plus, he was the only thing I liked about that Tim Burton movie that ripped off Planet of the Apes.  What was it called again...?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: JamesV on April 06, 2008, 06:39:37 PM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!
I'm gonna duck the man's politics and do my own research.  Until then, may the dude rest in peace, 'cause he was a good actor and made his manly mark.

Plus, he was the only thing I liked about that Tim Burton movie that ripped off Planet of the Apes.  What was it called again...?


Charlie and the Cocolate Factory? All I can say about that movie is that while Johnny Depp is fun, he's no Charlton Heston.

I can say that when I saw Heston in a movie, I was almost always entertained. I can say that.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 06, 2008, 06:57:20 PM
Quote from: dansebie
When AIM denies global warming, props up the manufactured links between Al-Qaeda and Iraq and presents intelligent design as a scientific theory, that's bad no matter what FAIR is doing.


In other words, you don't agree with their politics and fault them for advocating positions you don't like.  Yup.  That free speech sure is "disgusting".  

Did you actually read AIM's recent article about the links between Al Qaeda and Saddam's Iraq (http://www.aim.org/guest-column/report-shows-link-between-saddam-and-al-qaeda-mainstream-media-wrong-again/) or did you just read a left-wing source that condemned it?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: arminius on April 06, 2008, 07:20:33 PM
Can we get the nutty out of this thread?

Probably not. Oh, well. I liked the guy as an actor, Planet of the Apes is a great movie, I liked his other movies, and he did some very funny self-parody when he was on SNL.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 06, 2008, 08:14:36 PM
"THERE ARE NO PHONES RINGING!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evdQL5RFLec)
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: jgants on April 07, 2008, 12:36:14 AM
Boy, I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I didn't have a problem with the guy's politics (since I do not support gun control in general) but I never thought he was much of an actor.

Frankly, I thought he came from the William Shatner school of over-acting (or maybe Bill went to the Heston School of Over-Acting).  Yeah, I said it.  I love Planet of the Apes and Omega Man as much as the next guy, but because of the cheesy/fun quality of them, not because I think they're great art.

That said, I did think he had an excellent speaking voice, and always seemed rather intelligent and well-spoken, as well as being very morally committed to his causes.  He was a good man and will be missed.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 12:38:36 AM
IF it was the "school of Over-Acting" , then he did it with more style than William Shatner.

 Much more dignified too.


- Ed Charlton
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Lancer on April 07, 2008, 12:54:58 AM
The man will be sorely missed. I thought Planet of the Apes was one of the best sci-fi movies ever made(not the crappy modern one).

The Ten Commandments and Ben Hur were fun as well.

The message of Soylent Green must have been a shocking one , helping to galvanize environmentalists.

I actually never got to see The Omega Man. I should rent this one-- It's probably better than the current Will Smith version.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Zardoz on April 07, 2008, 02:18:12 AM
Quote from: Drew
Ah yes, that must be why we English are continually being overrun by mobs. Damned pesky things, always where you least expect 'em.  ;)



Well, lack of guns is why you english are being monitored 24/7 by constant video surveillance in your major cities and why you can't defend your homes when they're broken into and the fucking english cops won't bother to respond...
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Zardoz on April 07, 2008, 02:19:50 AM
Quote from: Lancer
The man will be sorely missed. I thought Planet of the Apes was one of the best sci-fi movies ever made(not the crappy modern one).

The Ten Commandments and Ben Hur were fun as well.

The message of Soylent Green must have been a shocking one , helping to galvanize environmentalists.

I actually never got to see The Omega Man. I should rent this one-- It's probably better than the current Will Smith version.


It is.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Drew on April 07, 2008, 02:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zardoz
Well, lack of guns is why you english are being monitored 24/7 by constant video surveillance in your major cities and why you can't defend your homes when they're broken into and the fucking english cops won't bother to respond...


I take it you've never visited here, have you?

The last occasion I had cause to call the police was around two weeks ago, when the violent ex-husband of a client walked into my place of work and became physically aggressive. Officers arrived in less than three minutes, restrained the man and took him away.

As for the cameras, they're a joke. No one's manning them.

But the rampaging mobs are still a problem. If the general public had easy access to firearms then I'm sure the situation would clear itself up immediately.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 07, 2008, 03:52:58 AM
Quote from: John Morrow
You don't think people can get abducted and murdered while out shopping?  It doesn't even take a mob.  Ask Gail Shollar.  Oh, wait.  You can't.  She was abducted, raped, and murdered from a suburban supermarket parking lot that's within walking distance of my house in 1992.  Or if you want something more recent, how about being attacked by a mob while riding the subway. (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080403_4_more_teens_arrested_in_fatal_subway_attack__sixth_sought.html)  Go ahead.  Tell me how the victims were to blame.

No offense dude but you seem to have problems. Who said it was the victims fault? Oh wait, you were just using that as an example to get your point accross in a dramatic yet stupid way.

Well dont you, you are so special. :raise:

On a different note, the police have always arrived within a couple of minutes when I have had need to call them (twice).
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Rob Lang on April 07, 2008, 08:12:55 AM
Didn't agree with Heston's politics but respect his movie work. Ben Hur is a classic where he did a load of his own stunts. Fair play.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: jgants on April 07, 2008, 09:06:21 AM
Quote from: Lancer
I actually never got to see The Omega Man. I should rent this one-- It's probably better than the current Will Smith version.


Omega Man is so much better than Will Smith's movie, there's really no comparison at all.  Omega Man doesn't try to use phony sentimentality to add "drama" to the story and the bad guys aren't phony-looking and simple-minded cartoons.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 09:27:24 AM
He should also be correctly remembered for this :

Quote
  World War II Service
In 1944, Heston enlisted in the United States Army Air Forces. He served for two years as a B-25 radio operator/gunner stationed in the Alaskan Aleutian Islands with the Eleventh Air Force, rising to the rank of Staff Sergeant.



Here  is the Wikipedia article link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleton_Heston



- Ed Charlton

Also...its a longshot - but I might be related to hium after all. My family lived in the Illinois area for decades upon decades. Never knew this until reading that article:

Quote
Heston was born John Charles Carter in Evanston, Illinois, the son of Lilla (née Charlton) and Russell Whitford Carter, a mill operator.[5] (However, the 1930 Census for Richfield, Michigan, where the family then lived, reports Russell Whitford Carter was a real estate salesman and their six year old son is referenced by the name "Charlton"). Heston was of English and Scottish descent and a member of the Fraser clan. When he was ten, his parents divorced. Shortly thereafter, his mother married Chester Heston. The new family moved to well-off Wilmette, Illinois, a northern suburb of Chicago.    .....................
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 09:34:22 AM
Quote from: Cthy
No offense dude but you seem to have problems. Who said it was the victims fault?

Well, you seemed to be implying that nobody engaged in normal activity like shopping could possibly need to defend themselves when, in fact, there are people who have been abducted and murdered while out shopping.  

Quote from: Cthy
On a different note, the police have always arrived within a couple of minutes when I have had need to call them (twice).

And of course you have so many hit points nobody could possibly kill you before the police arrive, right? :rolleyes:
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: Drew
Ah yes, that must be why we English are continually being overrun by mobs. Damned pesky things, always where you least expect 'em.  ;)


Of course there are no gangs or mobs attacking people in England, criminals never get a hold of guns because the UK has such strict controls on them, and the police always arrive on time before anyone gets hurt or dies, right? :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3397433.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/05/gender.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4460778.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/24/youthjustice.gunviolence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6564669.stm
http://www.patriciaebauer.com/2008/03/01/uk-gang-sentenced-to-life-for-murder-of-disabled-man/
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/03/12/killer-gang-used-a-machete-in-sefton-park-attack-100252-20611203/
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 07, 2008, 10:34:23 AM
Please get off the soapbox, John Morrow.  This is not the thread and you are starting to show your true colours.  I'm actually a little suprised, thinking you were actually one of those rational conservatives because you usually have such well thought out arguments.  But you are starting to reveal your "Fox News" side here.  Better tone it down.

Now on to the real issues.

1) Yes, Charlton Heston was not the best actor.  He definitely masticated the scenery and threw his big jaw around.  But he was entertaining, charismatic and tough and he really did make an effort.  Give me a big name male movie star with those failings over the weird self-aware safe pseudo-irony of Tom Cruise or even Brad Pitt any day.

2)  The Omega Man, overall, is really not a good movie.  It descends into the bizarre racial and sexual politics of its time in the last half.  However, the first half is still really cool (Charlton Heston driving around deserted LA in a convertible with a Bren Gun at his side, come on) and it is more true to the Richard Matheson story (and thus more interesting ultimately) than the weird blanded-out Will Smith version.

Those are my positions anyhow.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 11:15:38 AM
Quote from: walkerp
Please get off the soapbox, John Morrow.  This is not the thread and you are starting to show your true colours.

I'm showing my true colors but it's A-OK for people to call his politics "retarded" and "fucking disgusting", and even trivialize his work on civil rights issues to demonize him, right?  Yeah, I started it and I'm the only problem here.  The conservative needs to sit down and shut up and let the liberals rant, right?

Quote from: walkerp
I'm actually a little suprised, thinking you were actually one of those rational conservatives because you usually have such well thought out arguments.  But you are starting to reveal your "Fox News" side here.

Yes, heaven forbid conservatives actually speak up or defend conservative positions against obnoxious liberals lest they be like Fox News which gets maligned and singled out not for being biased (which other news organizations most certainly are) but for having a conservative bias.  And heaven forbid a conservative actually make an argument in defense of private gun ownership in a thread about Charlton Heston.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Drew on April 07, 2008, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: John Morrow
Of course there are no gangs or mobs attacking people in England, criminals never get a hold of guns because the UK has such strict controls on them, and the police always arrive on time before anyone gets hurt or dies, right? :rolleyes:



Yeah, really bad stuff happens in England sometimes. Just look at our history.

You know what though? It's rare as rocking horse shit, and is usually confined to areas that have broken down due to poverty, drugs and poor community relations. Day to day life in Britain is mercifully free of the horrific acts of violence you've cited, and I can't see how allowing the general public access to guns would make things any better.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 11:19:23 AM
John,

 The problem is you are helping the thread drift into "politics" when it might be nicer to remember the man and his career (all three of them, military, union, acting)  than to keep the politics argument going.


- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Drew on April 07, 2008, 11:37:47 AM
Quote from: Koltar
John,

 The problem is you are helping the thread drift into "politics" when it might be nicer to remember the man and his career (all three of them, military, union, acting)  than to keep the politics argument going.


Quite right. I'm outta here.


Rest in peace, Charlton Heston. You made some great movies.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 11:41:27 AM
Quote from: Drew
You know what though? It's rare as rocking horse shit, and is usually confined to areas that have broken down due to poverty, drugs and poor community relations. Day to day life in Britain is mercifully free of the horrific acts of violence you've cited, and I can't see how allowing the general public access to guns would make things any better.


Population density is a big issue that rarely gets mentioned when the UK or Japan are compared to the United States.  It may be reasonable to expect the police to show up in 3 minutes in the UK.  To be honest, I'm not sure what to believe about crime in the UK because for every person who assures me that the UK is safe, I read things like this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/03/guns_and_crime.html).
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 11:49:33 AM
Quote from: Koltar
The problem is you are helping the thread drift into "politics" when it might be nicer to remember the man and his career (all three of them, military, union, acting)  than to keep the politics argument going.


First, I didn't start the drift.  Second, being president and spokesman for the NRA was also a part of his career.  Do you really think it honors Heston to run away from a discussion of an issue he apparently felt pretty strongly about?

Let me put it this way.  It takes two to keep a political argument going.  Why not ask the other side to stop?  Why do I have to stop defending the position that Heston, himself, supported?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 07, 2008, 12:21:12 PM
Quote from: John Morrow

Let me put it this way.  It takes two to keep a political argument going.  Why not ask the other side to stop?  Why do I have to stop defending the position that Heston, himself, supported?


Because you've already made your point several times.  That's the problem.  Every Charlton Heston thread on the net is going to have some political discussion in it.  It's natural.  But you push it to the next level.  Everybody else made one or two political comments, but for you it's another excuse to launch into post after post of evidence and discssion points.  It's boring and annoying.  Why don't you just start another thread about gun control and maybe another about how the victimized conservative viewpoint while you're at it.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 12:30:35 PM
John M,

 You don't have to keep responding (then they respond, etc..)

For me its enough that Charlton Heston played HEROIC characters really well. His name had a similarity to mine - so when I was a kid that made me feel better seeing an actor play heroes who had 'Charlton' as part of his name.

The three I remember were : Planet of the Apes, Omega Man, and Earthquake.  As I grew older I connected him with The Ten Commandments as well.

He was also very watchable in :

Soylent Green  - played a basically Good Cop in a society that was corrupt and going to hell quick.

Airport 1975 - really hokey made more watchable because Heston plays a hero role.

He als0 had a memorable cameo in thre recent Kennth branagh version of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Charlton Heston played the elderly leader of the group of the thespians - the ones who stage the lay that will reveal the "conscience of the king".


- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: walkerp
Because you've already made your point several times.  That's the problem.


Given that people keep bring up the same points again and again, apparently I haven't made my point.  I'll repeat one of my points since apparently you've missed it.  It takes at least two people to sustain an argument like the one you are complaining about.  You have just as much power to stop this exchange as I do if you weren't up on your own soap box trying to get in the last word and pin this on me alone.

Quote from: walkerp
Every Charlton Heston thread on the net is going to have some political discussion in it.  It's natural.  But you push it to the next level.  Everybody else made one or two political comments, but for you it's another excuse to launch into post after post of evidence and discssion points.  It's boring and annoying.


Yes, yes, it's all my fault.  It's "natural" for people to bash Heston's politics but grossly unnatural and perverse to actually defend them. :rolleyes:

I would take you a lot more seriously if you weren't ignoring the fact that (A) a few people tried to more subtly rebuff the political bashing earlier in the thread but it was ignored by those doing the bashing and (B) my own first few replies were fairly innocuous and people decided to take issue with them.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 12:59:32 PM
Quote from: Koltar
John M,

 You don't have to keep responding (then they respond, etc..)


Correct.  And you could say the same thing to the people that respond to me.

Why is it my responsibility, alone, to let it go?  If you or walkerp had said, "Can everyone get off of their political soapboxes and talk about his acting career," as an appeal to decorum, I might have obliged.  "Sit down and shut up, John, this is all your fault," I don't respond so well to.  Sorry.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: James J Skach on April 07, 2008, 01:03:16 PM
Why? Why is it John that pushed it too far? Did he call Heston's politics retarded or disgusting?

You guys want to point the finger at Mr. Morrow because you don't agree with the policies he's defending.

BTW - Mr. Morrow, FWIW, I think you're chasing the wrong argument; I always do when people go down this line. The right to have a gun is as much (moreso IMHO) for the purpose of protecting yourself from the government as it is anything else. It's quaint, these days, but the concept is no less meaningful.

RIP, Chuck - well played, sir.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 07, 2008, 01:14:30 PM
John Morrow, you're the only person who came on this thread and didn't say anything about Charlton Heston.  All the other participants started out arguing about Charlton Heston's politics.  Then it devolved into some more general political discussions, which is where you came in.  And then you kept it going.  That's the difference.  It's like you hang around waiting for something you disagree with and then you jump in.  That's the problem for me at least.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 07, 2008, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: John Morrow
Why is it my responsibility, alone, to let it go?


Nature of the site John, one of the reasons I don't hang around here long. Judged as a whole, therpgsite is very center-left and that means you don't deserve the same respect as the typical center-left poster.

It's not moderated, but one can still be shouted down.

One of the sad things about this thread is that posters here have broken one of the traditional rules- an announcement of a person’s recent death (as this thread was) is not the place to debate their policies, but instead only to express loss, and list achievements from the PoV of the deceased.

Attacking those achievements should be left for other times and places. It's the one place and time where "if you have nothing good to say, say nothing" should aways apply.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 01:24:27 PM
John, Folks,

 People sometimes claim that I'm as "right-wing" as John Morrow is.

 I don't know if thats true or not.
 I am getting tired or politics and side issues getting dragged into every thread about a famous person's death.

In some ways it seems like people have a jealousy thing where because somebody was famous they feel they have to "take them down a peg or two" - just out of spite.


 By-the-way ....
 I DON"T feel any 'left-center-vibe'  politically speaking here on therpgsite. Felt the leftwing stuff more so on the Big Purple. (Tangency must be pretty whacky today I bet, between the Condi Rice story and Charlton Heston news)

Here, on Pundit's forum it feels a lot more "centrist" politically speaking - if there is such a thing on the web.

To re-cap : Charlton Heston was pretty darn good actor. I liked it when he played heroes in over the top movies.

- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 01:40:46 PM
Quote from: walkerp
John Morrow, you're the only person who came on this thread and didn't say anything about Charlton Heston.


Here's the problem.  My main memories of Charlton Heston are political, which is why I refrained from adding them to the thread because I didn't want to make it political.  The first few people who didn't like his politics simply said so and moved on, which I had no problem with.

So, do you want to know what I remember most fondly about Charlton Heston?  The day he got on the Rush Limbaugh program and told Rush Limbaugh that the secret to a long marriage is three words.  Rush asks, "You mean, 'I love you?'"  "No," Heston replied, "'I was wrong.'"  I also remember Rush Limbaugh playing Charlton Heston reading the lyrics for the rap song Cop Killer to Time-Warner's shareholder meeting.  And, yes, I remember him a spokeman for the NRA and being attacked for that.  If this little memory starts a round of Rush Limbaugh bashing, remember, you pretty much asked for it.

Yes, I could also have "me, too"ed about Planet of the Apes, Soylent Green, Omega Man (which I want to see again, since I haven't seen it in years), and the movie I most remember him for, The Ten Commandments, but I didn't think I'd have much to add there that other people weren't saying.

Quote from: walkerp
All the other participants started out arguing about Charlton Heston's politics.  Then it devolved into some more general political discussions, which is where you came in.  And then you kept it going.  That's the difference.


It takes two sides to keep it going.  Why do you keep pretending that's not the case?

Quote from: walkerp
It's like you hang around waiting for something you disagree with and then you jump in.  That's the problem for me at least.


So, would you really like to see more "Me, too" posts from me?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 07, 2008, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: John Morrow

So, do you want to know what I remember most fondly about Charlton Heston?  The day he got on the Rush Limbaugh program and told Rush Limbaugh that the secret to a long marriage is three words.  Rush asks, "You mean, 'I love you?'"  "No," Heston replied, "'I was wrong.'"  I also remember Rush Limbaugh playing Charlton Heston reading the lyrics for the rap song Cop Killer to Time-Warner's shareholder meeting.  And, yes, I remember him a spokeman for the NRA and being attacked for that.


Now you're talking.  What was the context of him reading Cop Killer?  Was it an artist they promoted?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 07, 2008, 01:53:40 PM
You want to talk irony??

Ice-T now plays a Cop weekly on NBC.


Maintaining continuity : Yay Charlton Heston!!


- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: J Arcane on April 07, 2008, 02:02:26 PM
I like guns.  I like shooting them.  I'd like to be able to own my own guns, once I actually can afford to do so.

I have no delusions however, that a bunch of scrabbly rednecks with storebought fire arms are going to put up much of a threat to an armed government possessed of the full range of modern military hardware.  So unless you're talking about extending the amendment to cover the full range of high powered military gear, then the "revolution" argument is a load of old bollocks.  

I also possess no delusion of them being especially useful for "self defence", considering, for one, how utterly irresponsible it is to be carrying or storing a loaded firearm, and for the second, how many statistics suggest that the second you brandish a weapon, especially a gun, the chance of you winding up dead from what otherwise might've been a survivable encounter go through the roof.  

Guns are not magic wands that make all your problems go away.  And these two arguments in particular, as well as the lunacy of Heston and his NRA, make responsible gun owners look bad, make the cause of gun ownership look bad, and tarnish the reputation of the entire United States.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: John Morrow on April 07, 2008, 02:22:08 PM
Quote from: walkerp
Now you're talking.  What was the context of him reading Cop Killer?  Was it an artist they promoted?

Basically, they were trying to get Time-Warner to stop selling and promoting rap with vile lyrics.  So to bring home the message of exactly what was being said in those lyrics on the ablums Time-Warner was selling to the shareholders, Charlton Heston read them out loud in the meeting.  He also read the lyrics to "KKK Bitch" (which included lyrics about "Tipper Gore's two 12-year-old nieces").  His article about it from National Review in 1992 can be found here (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_/ai_12666325).  He does a few of the less vulgar lyrics in this speech (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/charltonhestonculturalwar.htm) (full audio here (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=bcisbcis&dir=forum&file=Heston) - about 14 minutes in) if you want a sample.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: The Good Assyrian on April 07, 2008, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
I have no delusions however, that a bunch of scrabbly rednecks with storebought fire arms are going to put up much of a threat to an armed government possessed of the full range of modern military hardware.


I know some Vietnamese who would likely take issue with that little piece of hubris... ;)


TGA
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on April 07, 2008, 03:26:35 PM
Quote from: Drew
Yeah, really bad stuff happens in England sometimes. Just look at our history.

You know what though? It's rare as rocking horse shit, and is usually confined to areas that have broken down due to poverty, drugs and poor community relations. Day to day life in Britain is mercifully free of the horrific acts of violence you've cited, and I can't see how allowing the general public access to guns would make things any better.


Getting rid of guns is a band-aid solution to the collapse of social support structures in the developed world. If you spent real money helping the poor, breaking down racist structures in society and treating the mentally ill humanely it wouldn't matter if everyone had guns (see Switzerland or France or Canada, for example, all of which possess a great deal of long-arms).
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Drew on April 07, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
Getting rid of guns is a band-aid solution to the collapse of social support structures in the developed world. If you spent real money helping the poor, breaking down racist structures in society and treating the mentally ill humanely it wouldn't matter if everyone had guns (see Switzerland or France or Canada, for example, all of which possess a great deal of long-arms).


I agree with all the above, and am being very careful not to propose that other nations need to change their own legislation.

My current thinking is that the sudden introduction of guns to countries where they aren't commonly available would likely be more catastrophic than the sudden removal of them from countries where they are. This of course assumes that said countries (including Britain) still labour under the difficulties you mention above.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Spike on April 07, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Charlie: Your acting may not have been top shelf, but your movies never failed to entertain.

You politics may not agree with others, but they were always much more normal than many of the celebrities which try to fill your oversized boots.

I think your first act as an 'out of the closet Alzhiemer's patient' would be to go around Hollywood beating Tom Cruise or Madge or...

Well, you get the picture.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: SionEwig on April 07, 2008, 08:09:46 PM
cue Beethoven's Symphony No. 6 „Pastorale"
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Ian Absentia on April 09, 2008, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: gleichman
Judged as a whole, therpgsite is very center-left and that means you don't deserve the same respect as the typical center-left poster.

It's not moderated, but one can still be shouted down.
I'm curious, Brian -- what happens on a right-of-center site? Everyone marches in lockstep? :D

!i!
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 12:05:03 AM
Quote from: Ian Absentia
I'm curious, Brian -- what happens on a right-of-center site? Everyone marches in lockstep? :D

!i!


With respect to RPGs, as far as I know they don't exist.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: James J Skach on April 10, 2008, 12:22:41 AM
Quote from: gleichman
With respect to RPGs, as far as I know they don't exist.

We just don't talk politics on d20 Haven :D
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 10, 2008, 12:28:31 AM
Quote from: James J Skach
We just don't talk politics on d20 Haven :D



Yeah man - you don't wanna see it when Orcs, Ogres and Dwarves start to arguing about presidential primaries - you thought humans were bad?? The non-human races are even worse.


- Ed C.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Zardoz on April 10, 2008, 03:13:56 AM
Quote from: Ian Absentia
I'm curious, Brian -- what happens on a right-of-center site? Everyone marches in lockstep? :D

!i!

 Check out the hero games forums for an example of a right of center game website.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Melan on April 10, 2008, 04:17:43 AM
Quote from: gleichman
With respect to RPGs, as far as I know they don't exist.

Incorrect. (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4281)
Also, I'd probably put TheRPGSite's politics on a fairly right-wing side, at least by European standards... that Tangen... Off Topic is more liberal is kind of an universal constant in RPG boards.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 08:18:37 AM
Quote from: James J Skach
We just don't talk politics on d20 Haven :D


That's sort of what I'd expect from a right-center RPG site.

But if that's the case, one would never know if it was right-center, or a very rare case of reasonable left-center. At least not without asking and that would break it then and there. :)
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 08:20:23 AM
Quote from: Zardoz
Check out the hero games forums for an example of a right of center game website.


Been there.

It was very much like this place. And rather horrible if one was interested in HERO System to boot.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 08:22:32 AM
Quote from: Melan
Incorrect. (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4281)
Also, I'd probably put TheRPGSite's politics on a fairly right-wing side, at least by European standards... that Tangen... Off Topic is more liberal is kind of an universal constant in RPG boards.


By European standards, everyone in America is right-center. It says more about Europe than it does websites or America.

Given that, I won't even waste the time checking out your link.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 10, 2008, 08:57:18 AM
I don't know, gleichman, it seems that by your standards everyone is center-left.  At first, this place seemed a den of fascists like the old Pyramid newsgroups, but now I see that it is really hard to characterize any one true political leaning here.  There are a lot of posters here who even as individuals are extremely hard to put in any one camp.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Koltar on April 10, 2008, 09:00:59 AM
Whether I lean left or right depends on if I'm using my cane that day and on how my legs are feeling.


- Ed
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Melan on April 10, 2008, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: gleichman
Given that, I won't even waste the time checking out your link.

Fuck you too. :)
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 10:14:25 AM
Quote from: walkerp
I don't know, gleichman, it seems that by your standards everyone is center-left.  At first, this place seemed a den of fascists like the old Pyramid newsgroups, but now I see that it is really hard to characterize any one true political leaning here.  There are a lot of posters here who even as individuals are extremely hard to put in any one camp.


I could name a few right-center people here. Like John Morrow for one example. But they are poorly treated for the most part, as happened in this thread.

As to the rest of your comments...

Most people don't think well enough to do anything but go with their crowd. For the most part online, that's left-center but can also be seen on the right. Generally that results in confusion of belief. There are also known mixes of left/right that make certain sense if one isn't too demanding.

And fascism is left-wing: http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207834251&sr=8-1
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 10, 2008, 11:51:25 AM
Quote from: gleichman
I could name a few right-center people here. Like John Morrow for one example. But they are poorly treated for the most part, as happened in this thread.


Poorly treated?  Did you mean to say argued against?  And Morrow counts for like 3 people with his posting count on political issues.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 10, 2008, 11:53:07 AM
Quote from: gleichman

And fascism is left-wing: http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207834251&sr=8-1


Proof!

Also, I'm an eco-fascist.

More proof!
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 11:54:44 AM
Quote from: walkerp
Poorly treated?  Did you mean to say argued against?


I mean to say what happened in this thread.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: hgjs on April 10, 2008, 12:07:37 PM
Quote from: Acta Est Fabula
You're vilifying him for advocating the 2nd amendment, and wording it in a way that makes it seem that advocating private gun ownership is the negative flip side of fighting for equal rights?  You're entitled to your opinions, but there are worse things to vilify a person for.  Sure, he was a bit....over the top, but it's not like he was advocating anything that had a profound negative effect on a large group of people.  He was advocating a popular interpretation of the constitution.  Especially in the light of all the good he had done for people over his lifetime.

Unless you are, of course saying that advocating private gun ownership is the evil equivalent of fighting for equal rights.  But then you'd have to also agree, by that logic, that a person who wanted to prohibit people from owning guns would have made up for advocating apartheid and Jim Crow laws.


Leave it to anti-gun wackos to make it sound as if the NRA is the Great Satan.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: walkerp on April 10, 2008, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: gleichman
I mean to say what happened in this thread.


Oh so when the right threadcraps it's acceptable?
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: walkerp
Oh so when the right threadcraps it's acceptable?


John didn't threadcap, he responded to threadcaps that started at the second post to this thread.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: Cthy on April 10, 2008, 05:40:58 PM
You did it! No you did it! Did so! Did Not! Did too!




Yawn.
Title: Charlton Heston dead at 83
Post by: gleichman on April 10, 2008, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: Cthy
You did it! No you did it! Did so! Did Not! Did too!


It's nice to have a written record in cases like this, however boring you may find it.