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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: jeff37923 on September 28, 2021, 11:03:23 AM

Title: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: jeff37923 on September 28, 2021, 11:03:23 AM
Direct from Variety.

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/babylon-5-reboot-the-cw-j-michael-straczynski-1235075236/?fbclid=IwAR1eHIrzPnsuBJZo57iCmb7gCagZeLjO5Wm0__Y6bLOsR9C7m07wIGSMvP0


Direct from J. Michael Strazynski:
Quote from: JMS
J. Michael Straczynski - Hang with JMS
 
To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is now in active development as a series for the CW.  We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen.  I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup.  The network understands the uniqueness of Babylon 5 and is giving me a great deal of latitude with the storytelling.

As noted in the announcement, this is a reboot from the ground up rather than a continuation, for several reasons.  Heraclitus wrote, “You cannot step in the same river twice, for the river has changed, and you have changed.”  In the years since B5, I’ve done a ton of other TV shows and movies, adding an equal number of tools to my toolbox, all of which I can bring to bear on the question: if I were creating Babylon 5 today, for the first time, knowing what I now know as a writer, what would it look like?  How would it use all the storytelling tools and technological resources available in 2021 that were not on hand then?  How can it be used to reflect the world in which we live, and the questions we are asking and confronting every day?  Fans regularly point out how prescient the show was and is of our current world; it would be fun to take a shot at looking further down the road.

So we will not be retelling the same story in the same way because of what Heraclitus said about the river.  There would be no fun and no surprises.  Better to go the way of Westworld or Battlestar Galactica where you take the original elements that are evergreens and put them in a blender with a ton of new, challenging ideas, to create something both fresh and familiar.

To those who have asked why we’re not just doing a continuation…for a network series like this, it can’t be done because over half our cast are still stubbornly on the other side of the Rim.  How do you telling continuing story of our original Londo without the original Vir?  Or G’Kar?  How do you tell Sheridan’s story without Delenn?  Or the story of B5 without Franklin?  Garibaldi?  Zack? 

The original Babylon 5 was ridiculously innovative: the first to use CGI to create ships and characters, and among the very first to shoot widescreen with a vigorous 5.1 mix.  Most of all, for the first time, Babylon 5 introduced viewers accustomed to episodic television to the concept of a five-year arc with a pre-planned beginning, middle and end…creating a brand new paradigm for television storytelling that has subsequently become the norm. That tradition for innovation will continue in this new iteration, and I hope to create additional new forms of storytelling that will further push the television medium to the edge of what’s possible.

Let me conclude by just saying how supportive and enthusiastic everyone at the CW has been and is being with this project.  They understand the unique position Babylon 5 occupies both in television and with its legions of fans, and are doing everything they can to ensure the maximum in creative freedom, a new story that will bring in new viewers while honoring all that has come before.{/
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 28, 2021, 11:13:30 AM
I have no faith in this.

Sorry. Seen too much. I don't know if JMS is woke or not, but I have no confidence either way. Either he's on the woke train, in which case it'll SUCK. Or he's not, at which point he'll get cross-threaded with the wokeists and spend inordinate amounts of time and energy fighting them.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 28, 2021, 11:29:48 AM
Babylon 5 was more hippie dippy and niavely idealistic then friggin STAR TREK.

But for the people that liked that sort of thing, it was made well. Babylon 5 needs maybe a CGI upgrade at most. Reboots are cynical cashgrabs and those that consume them are the kind of person that eats fast food for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Oddend on September 28, 2021, 01:41:45 PM
Direct from J. Michael Strazynski:
Quote from: JMS
the CW

lol
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 28, 2021, 01:59:11 PM
I have no faith in this.

Sorry. Seen too much. I don't know if JMS is woke or not, but I have no confidence either way. Either he's on the woke train, in which case it'll SUCK. Or he's not, at which point he'll get cross-threaded with the wokeists and spend inordinate amounts of time and energy fighting them.

   I think he's on the Woke Train. In any case, as I said on Twitter, the original B5 stood at a precarious balance between greatness and absurdity, and I think any remake is more likely to tumble into the abyss than find itself on solid footing.

    The question is, will he have Sheridan sell his marriage to Delenn to the Shadows? ;)
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2021, 02:10:52 PM
Speaking as a fan who is currently at halfway through Season 5 of a rewatch, I'm not very interested in this.

Babylon 5 was very much a product of it's time. When it was thought that Star Trek was the only sci-fi television show with any staying power, B5 came along and, with great effort, managed to get all 5 of it's planned seasons out, and carve out a fan niche of it's own.
It's planned storyline was revolutionary for it's time, when episodic television was the status quo. (Yes, there are exceptions)
But now? I feel like JMS has said and done everything that he wanted to say and do, and his sequel series and most of the TV movies (excepting In the Beginning) were really a (pun intended?) shadow of the main series. Crusade was terribly clunky, despite having some really great ideas (What's in the box?!?!?) and Legend of the Rangers was downright atrocious.

No, not even addressing whether it's going to be some kind of Woke garbage, Babylon 5, warts and all, is a complete story that's well worth watching, and the chances of a rehash adding anything of entertainment value are slim.

But for fanboy's sake...

Quote
To those who have asked why we’re not just doing a continuation…for a network series like this, it can’t be done because over half our cast are still stubbornly on the other side of the Rim.  How do you telling continuing story of our original Londo without the original Vir?  Or G’Kar?  How do you tell Sheridan’s story without Delenn?  Or the story of B5 without Franklin?  Garibaldi?  Zack?

There's 20 years after the end of the series and the decommisioning of Babylon 5 to tell stories in. They shouldn't dig up the bones of old characters. Do something new in the same setting. Only Zak was shown to still be on the station 20 years later, and he can be sidestepped, since the actor is likely not age appropriate anymore. Lockley could have moved on after a few years.
Just to make the point. They don't need to make a rote sequel with the same characters.


Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 28, 2021, 02:13:02 PM
Direct from Variety.

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/babylon-5-reboot-the-cw-j-michael-straczynski-1235075236/?fbclid=IwAR1eHIrzPnsuBJZo57iCmb7gCagZeLjO5Wm0__Y6bLOsR9C7m07wIGSMvP0


Seeing "Reboot," "The CW," and "Babylon 5" together is a factory of sadness eclipsing even the Browns.

Edit: screwed up formatting
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2021, 02:21:13 PM
Babylon 5 was more hippie dippy and niavely idealistic then friggin STAR TREK.

But for the people that liked that sort of thing, it was made well. Babylon 5 needs maybe a CGI upgrade at most. Reboots are cynical cashgrabs and those that consume them are the kind of person that eats fast food for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

The CGI got so much better over the course of the series, an update would be great, but cost to return ratio would likely be prohibitive.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 28, 2021, 06:46:10 PM
I don't know if JMS is woke or not, but I have no confidence either way. Either he's on the woke train, in which case it'll SUCK. Or he's not, at which point he'll get cross-threaded with the wokeists and spend inordinate amounts of time and energy fighting them.

There is reason to be optimistic, I think. JMS is one of the few explicitly atheist writers I've encountered who nonetheless groks religious thought and religious people well enough to write them in a serious, non-patronizing and non-offensive manner. That ability is usually incompatible with Woke sensibilities. And JMS has previously demonstrated enough stubbornness to disdain PC sensibilities where they would interfere with the story he wants to tell.

That said, I have to admit that much as I loved Babylon 5 in the '90s and would love to see a version done with everything that could be brought to bear on it now, there's a part of me that kind of wonders, "What's the point?" I know the story of the Shadow War, the secret of the hole in Sinclair's mind, the arc of Sheridan and Delenn, and everything else, and for JMS to overhaul those to the point of being surprising again he will have to lose all the mythic resonance of the original arcs. So I would probably check this out for curiosity's sake but couldn't guarantee sticking with it.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on September 30, 2021, 09:45:17 AM
I dunno.

On the one hand, I'm worried it might turn into woke garbage, or CW fluff.

On the other hand, though, it is true that B5 had to change course abruptly at a number of points, due to actors becoming unavailable, and threats of early cancellation. It would be interesting to see a version of Babylon 5 that went more according to plan. The show could be tighter overall, and avoid the pacing issues of Seasons 4 and 5.

They could also include elements like the Telepath War that were never filmed for the original show.

It would also be sweet to see a version of Babylon 5 shot with the technology they use for The Mandalorian. There's just so much more you could do.

One thing I haven't seen yet, and it may not be decided yet, is what the budget is going to be like, and how many episodes are going to be in a season, and how many seasons are planned.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on September 30, 2021, 09:53:14 AM
That said, I have to admit that much as I loved Babylon 5 in the '90s and would love to see a version done with everything that could be brought to bear on it now, there's a part of me that kind of wonders, "What's the point?" I know the story of the Shadow War, the secret of the hole in Sinclair's mind, the arc of Sheridan and Delenn, and everything else, and for JMS to overhaul those to the point of being surprising again he will have to lose all the mythic resonance of the original arcs. So I would probably check this out for curiosity's sake but couldn't guarantee sticking with it.

Here's a what-if: If they're going with Sheridan from Day 1, are they going to give him Sinclair's back story?

What will the Sheridan/Delenn arc look like if Delenn becomes human, and Sheridan becomes Valen? Do they go back in time at the end of the show, instead of doing Sleeping in Light?

It could be very different, and in a good way.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 30, 2021, 11:20:35 AM
That said, I have to admit that much as I loved Babylon 5 in the '90s and would love to see a version done with everything that could be brought to bear on it now, there's a part of me that kind of wonders, "What's the point?" I know the story of the Shadow War, the secret of the hole in Sinclair's mind, the arc of Sheridan and Delenn, and everything else, and for JMS to overhaul those to the point of being surprising again he will have to lose all the mythic resonance of the original arcs. So I would probably check this out for curiosity's sake but couldn't guarantee sticking with it.

Here's a what-if: If they're going with Sheridan from Day 1, are they going to give him Sinclair's back story?

What will the Sheridan/Delenn arc look like if Delenn becomes human, and Sheridan becomes Valen? Do they go back in time at the end of the show, instead of doing Sleeping in Light?

It could be very different, and in a good way.

JMS has said, quoted in the first post, that they won't be using the same characters. At least, not as we saw them in the show. I can't imagine them using all the character and plot beats from the original series. I'd expect some really radical departures and changes, otherwise, it's not even a reboot, but a straight remake.
Hell, the new series could have the same kind of issues come up, and get changed mid-series like the original.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on October 03, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
I would expect Season 1 to be radically different. For one, the pacing of the original is widely criticized. And two, assuming the Shadows are still the Big Bads, there wouldn't be much point in saving their introduction for the end of season cliffhanger. Everyone will know what's coming.

One big difference is that using a digital projection soundstage like The Mandalorian means you aren't tied down to plywood sets in a hot tub factory. The action can go off-station much more easily. And you can have scenes take place in much bigger spaces inside the station. The nightclub can be a full-sized casino. The bridge of the station can be bigger than a two car garage. The diplomatic spaces can have a proper UN sized auditorium.

Or maybe you keep the station sets small, because B5 is the cheap station they built after Babylon 4 disappeared, but you contrast it with grand spaces everywhere else.

At the very least, you can do the "walking down curved corridors in a station shaped like a drum" shots that 2001: A Space Odyssey did with expensive rotating sets, and B5 had to avoid because they didn't have the budget to do that all the time. 
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Pat on October 03, 2021, 11:57:10 AM
Direct from J. Michael Strazynski:
Quote from: JMS
the CW

lol
Unlike the stuffy old Babylon 5, in the nu Babylon 5 everyone is young, hot, and takes off their shirts a lot.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Zelen on October 03, 2021, 04:31:29 PM
Babylon 5 was more hippie dippy and niavely idealistic then friggin STAR TREK.

What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.


While I enjoyed Babylon 5 for its time, and I'd consider myself a big fan even today, I have no interest in a Babylon 5 remake done by CW or one that adapts to present day political orthodoxy. Not interested, and unless Straczynski and others explicitly state otherwise, I won't even look into it.


Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 04:43:19 PM
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 04:52:11 PM
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?
It was also only through military strength that Earth Force saved the League of Non-Aligned Worlds from the Dilgar.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Zelen on October 03, 2021, 07:20:14 PM
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?

I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

At the same time your critique isn't really informed since you only watched the first season. Definitely the weakest, and doesn't introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 07:37:19 PM
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.

Quote
introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.
I read some of the spoilers (The aliens where morons, got their leader killed, and then blamed the humans for it). From said spoilers they don't seem to make it better.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 07:46:35 PM
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.

Quote
introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.
I read some of the spoilers (The aliens where morons, got their leader killed, and then blamed the humans for it). From said spoilers they don't seem to make it better.
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed--it was poor diplomacy and arrogance. Their military was weak compared to the Minbari, but so were all of the younger races (the Minbari were the pets of the Vernon's, one of the Ancient races).
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 08:13:04 PM
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed-

It was. If a human came up to a unfamiliar animal, and then started yelling loudly at it and moving aggressively towards it arms overhead here is 2 things that can happen:
We would call the human a moron if after getting his gonads mauled, he would demand the extermination of that species. Now sadly there are plenty of moronic humans, but thats beyond the point.
The reason the Minbari decided to attack the humans was pure contrivance (and I could list reasons why), but they could have written a less contrived method of why they decided to exterminate the entire race based apon the actions of a few.
Regardless of what that reason was, the Minbari decided to exterminate the human race based upon the actions of a few. And the only reason they stopped was because they didn't decide to closely inspect their targets up close beforehand.

Even if we go with 'And we try to be hunky dory with the Minbari', its been established that the Minbari are cretins that could be setoff by somebody farting too loudly. If you had that sort of neighbor, I would do everything possible to be ready for another attack by them in case they felt that the humans eyebrows where to fuzzy that day and they needed to cull 75% of them.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Zelen on October 03, 2021, 08:26:45 PM
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.


You seem to be assuming that humans behave perfectly logically. I just don't agree. Twenty years ago the US suffered a devastating attack because "our" government let in a couple of migrants without properly vetting them for extremist beliefs & connections. Today "our" government is rushing to import as many unvetted migrants as possible, with predictable results.

While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 08:36:50 PM
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed-

It was. If a human came up to a unfamiliar animal, and then started yelling loudly at it and moving aggressively towards it arms overhead here is 2 things that can happen:
  • The animal runs away. Best case.
  • The animal attacks.
We would call the human a moron if after getting his gonads mauled, he would demand the extermination of that species. Now sadly there are plenty of moronic humans, but thats beyond the point.
The reason the Minbari decided to attack the humans was pure contrivance (and I could list reasons why), but they could have written a less contrived method of why they decided to exterminate the entire race based apon the actions of a few.
Regardless of what that reason was, the Minbari decided to exterminate the human race based upon the actions of a few. And the only reason they stopped was because they didn't decide to closely inspect their targets up close beforehand.

Even if we go with 'And we try to be hunky dory with the Minbari', its been established that the Minbari are cretins that could be setoff by somebody farting too loudly. If you had that sort of neighbor, I would do everything possible to be ready for another attack by them in case they felt that the humans eyebrows where to fuzzy that day and they needed to cull 75% of them.
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 08:37:36 PM
While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
Its more the show framing anti-warfare as moral and rightous is what makes me call the show naive. This isn't me calling the show terrible. Its just what bothered me.

The episode that made me quit watching the show (and just read synopsises), was when Jeffrey Sinclair gets out of a moral dilemna by just handing the military budget to striking workers. And what I had seen before of the show hadn't impressed me either.

Im ...eh... about Star Trek, but Deep Space 9 impressed me. It challenged its own convictions without just shitting on them STD style. I ultimately hated how it resolved, but it I could so often feel the writers actually trying to get out of their own headspace. Often failing, but it was the thought that counts. When they needed to make a defense of capitalism, they did a heartfelt (but pathetic) attempt. And I apreciated that.

Babylon 5 seemed (and from what I read sems) to always take the way more shlocky and easy route. RELIGEON AM BAD. DIVERSITY & SHIT. WAR AM DUM. Star Trek is very guilty of often doing the same, but when it didn't, thats when it stood out as exceptional.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 08:40:28 PM
While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
Its more the show framing anti-warfare as moral and rightous is what makes me call the show naive. This isn't me calling the show terrible. Its just what bothered me.

The episode that made me quit watching the show (and just read synopsises), was when Jeffrey Sinclair gets out of a moral dilemna by just handing the military budget to striking workers. And what I had seen before of the show hadn't impressed me either.

Im ...eh... about Star Trek, but Deep Space 9 impressed me. It challenged its own convictions without just shitting on them STD style. I ultimately hated how it resolved, but it I could so often feel the writers actually trying to get out of their own headspace. Often failing, but it was the thought that counts. When they needed to make a defense of capitalism, they did a heartfelt (but pathetic) attempt. And I apreciated that.

Babylon 5 seemed (and from what I read sems) to always take the way more shlocky and easy route. RELIGEON AM BAD. DIVERSITY & SHIT. WAR AM DUM. Star Trek is very guilty of often doing the same, but when it didn't, thats when it stood out as exceptional.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.

Had the Minbari never contacted another alien species before? Or are humans just #37 on the list of species they exterminated when their classic hail sign 'Jam their engines and open gun ports' for SOME reason triggers hostility. Its a contrived stupid reason. But no matter the reason, no matter how prideful and stupid the humans where (and in this case they where not) that is no excuse for mass species genocide, especially if they had actually contacted other species before, and therefore would know basic shit like 'Our sensors jam their engines and look threatening'.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Because 95% of all its portrayals of religeon portray its followers as closeminded and stupid. And that religeon is effectively a scam by aliens.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 08:52:31 PM
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Quote
Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?

Even if earth had the resources, they couldn't match the Minbari. The Earth Alliance had a thousand year tech gap, and a smashed infrastructure.
The military wouldn't buy diddly doo dah. Even the Battle of the Line was just target practice for the Minbari.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 08:58:55 PM
It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Wow that makes it even DUMBER.
But thats just me. B5 did not impress me, and I found its writing on the simplistic side. I don't want to rile the fans of the show for the reasons they like it. I have made my position clear.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 09:02:17 PM
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.

Had the Minbari never contacted another alien species before? Or are humans just #37 on the list of species they exterminated when their classic hail sign 'Jam their engines and open gun ports' for SOME reason triggers hostility. Its a contrived stupid reason. But no matter the reason, no matter how prideful and stupid the humans where (and in this case they where not) that is no excuse for mass species genocide, especially if they had actually contacted other species before, and therefore would know basic shit like 'Our sensors jam their engines and look threatening'.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Because 95% of all its portrayals of religeon portray its followers as closeminded and stupid. And that religeon is effectively a scam by aliens.

You seem to have made up your mind. It would be pointless to point out the positive portrayal of real earth religions later in the series.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 09:04:27 PM
It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Wow that makes it even DUMBER.
But thats just me. B5 did not impress me, and I found its writing on the simplistic side. I don't want to rile the fans of the show for the reasons they like it. I have made my position clear.

The CAPS LOCK really sells your argument.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 09:07:04 PM
You seem to have made up your mind. It would be pointless to point out the positive portrayal of real earth religions later in the series.

I mean I don't like the writing style of the show. Thats unlikely to change. But if it has a positive spin on human religeons (in later seasons) I will mention that if I ever need to bring it up.

I did not like how in some cultural festival, Sinclair just arranges all these different human priests in a line and they all agreed to just stand there awkwardly until asked for maximum diversity points. Its not a negative portrayal, I just found it hoakey. I do not get the sense that the writers of the show understand sprirituality, like the writers of DS9 tried to do.
The CAPS LOCK really sells your argument.

Its a writing tick of mine. Apologies.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 09:21:15 PM
You seem to have made up your mind. It would be pointless to point out the positive portrayal of real earth religions later in the series.

I mean I don't like the writing style of the show. Thats unlikely to change. But if it has a positive spin on human religeons (in later seasons) I will mention that if I ever need to bring it up.

I did not like how in some cultural festival, Sinclair just arranges all these different human priests in a line and they all agreed to just stand there awkwardly until asked for maximum diversity points. Its not a negative portrayal, I just found it hoakey. I do not get the sense that the writers of the show understand sprirituality, like the writers of DS9 tried to do.
The CAPS LOCK really sells your argument.

I agree. My complaint is that other alien races would be just as likely to have a diverse range of religous beliefs, and so that scene did come across as hokey to me.
They get much better later in the series. Many of the main characters are shown practicing their faith without turning it into a parade. And a group of Roman Catholics set up residence on B5, trading their secular services for room and board, and featuring in a few episodes.

Quote
Its a writing tick of mine. Apologies.

No prob.

I didn't like B5 when it first came out. My friends were all talking up the show, and I didn't want to invest my attention on another potentially doomed sci-fi series. And I had issues with some of the content in the show, like you did.

Years later, I caught some seasons 5 episodes, got hooked, and re-watched the entire show. It's got it's flaws, and I don't agree with every writing decision, but I wound up really liking it because it had a different voice than any other sci-fi show up until that point. And the Big Story was refreshing after Star Trek's mostly episodic format.

It just feels to me like dumping on DS9 or TNG just based on their first seasons, a person could have much the same kind of arguments.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 09:28:28 PM
It just feels to me like dumping on DS9 or TNG just based on their first seasons, a person could have much the same kind of arguments.

....Thats a really fair example. Alright, il stick with it further and see whats with it. I found DS9s first season just kinda generic, but TNGs first season is downright insufferable. But both shows had good moments.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 09:39:38 PM
It just feels to me like dumping on DS9 or TNG just based on their first seasons, a person could have much the same kind of arguments.

....Thats a really fair example. Alright, il stick with it further and see whats with it. I found DS9s first season just kinda generic, but TNGs first season is downright insufferable. But both shows had good moments.

I'd be interested if you wanted to post a thread about your thoughts on the show as you watch.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 09:54:21 PM
I'd be interested if you wanted to post a thread about your thoughts on the show as you watch.

I might. But you gotta tell me: What is the good stuff from the show? I go at anything with focus on what something does good over what it does bad. If it has allot of good, then I will probably overlook the bad.
Up intil that episode that made me quit, B5 was not impressing me with the good.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 10:08:45 PM
I'd be interested if you wanted to post a thread about your thoughts on the show as you watch.

I might. But you gotta tell me: What is the good stuff from the show? I go at anything with focus on what something does good over what it does bad. If it has allot of good, then I will probably overlook the bad.
Up intil that episode that made me quit, B5 was not impressing me with the good.

What hooked me was the Londo storyline from Season 5. Nowadays, it would probably be seen as quaint, but having a main character fall into a fate like his, not being a moustache twirling villain, but just a guy who made some evil decisions and later regretted them, that was really compelling to me.

The interplay between Londo and G'Kar was what kept my attention during the rewatch. The whole Narn/Centauri war storyline is pretty good, which leads into the bigger picture concerns about the Shadows and Vorlons manipulating events and how there's so many great setups with payoffs during the series.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 10:29:07 PM
What hooked me was the Londo storyline from Season 5. Nowadays, it would probably be seen as quaint, but having a main character fall into a fate like his, not being a moustache twirling villain, but just a guy who made some evil decisions and later regretted them, that was really compelling to me.
It doesn't sound quaint because most shows still don't do this and fail to do it compitently.

Still, season 5 sounds like ALLOT to swallow before it gets to the good parts. I know I dislike the resolution to the Vorlons/Shadow War, but I also disliked the resolution of DS9. Does the show get better at resolving its moral or situational dilemnas inbetween where I am and where it ends (ignoring the ending)?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 10:34:20 PM
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Because 95% of all its portrayals of religeon portray its followers as closeminded and stupid. And that religeon is effectively a scam by aliens.
To be fair, it was a scam by godlike aliens.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2021, 10:35:26 PM
What hooked me was the Londo storyline from Season 5. Nowadays, it would probably be seen as quaint, but having a main character fall into a fate like his, not being a moustache twirling villain, but just a guy who made some evil decisions and later regretted them, that was really compelling to me.
It doesn't sound quaint because most shows still don't do this and fail to do it compitently.

Still, season 5 sounds like ALLOT to swallow before it gets to the good parts. I know I dislike the resolution to the Vorlons/Shadow War, but I also disliked the resolution of DS9. Does the show get better at resolving its moral or situational dilemnas inbetween where I am and where it ends (ignoring the ending)?

Where are you at? If you quit mid-first-season, I'd say watch the last episode of season 1 for the context, and then give season 2 a shot. Season 2 will give you a good idea of how the rest of the series is like.

If you want to recapitulate my experience, watch season 5's The Fall of Centauri Prime. That was the one that grabbed my attention.

Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Zelen on October 03, 2021, 10:43:42 PM
Babylon 5 (like DS9) is hard to watch these days because it falls in the weird middle ground between episodic shows like ST:TNG that are easy to put on in the background on a Saturday afternoon, and strong seasonal arc shows. I know myself I struggle to find time to watch ANY show, much less 15+ hours for a single season of a show.

For someone who is a Trek fan, DS9's filler episodes are probably more palatable than B5 simply because it's Trek, and therefore has a big reserve of background affection & lore to draw on. But in my opinion B5's mainline plotting is superior, it's more ambitious and less safe, and the character arcs are better. Particular favorites are Londo (Peter Jurasik) & G'Kar (Andreas Katsulas). Nothing Star Trek does comes close to these two characters, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 10:54:43 PM
Babylon 5 (like DS9) is hard to watch these days because it falls in the weird middle ground between episodic shows like ST:TNG that are easy to put on in the background on a Saturday afternoon, and strong seasonal arc shows. I know myself I struggle to find time to watch ANY show, much less 15+ hours for a single season of a show.

For someone who is a Trek fan, DS9's filler episodes are probably more palatable than B5 simply because it's Trek, and therefore has a big reserve of background affection & lore to draw on. But in my opinion B5's mainline plotting is superior, it's more ambitious and less safe, and the character arcs are better. Particular favorites are Londo (Peter Jurasik) & G'Kar (Andreas Katsulas). Nothing Star Trek does comes close to these two characters, in my opinion.
At the time of their initial release, both shows were sometimes hard to get into because of the long story arcs and (particularly for B5) irregular air times. In todays world of streaming (and even last decade's DVRs), this is much less of an issue, but back in the 90s it took effort to really get into and appreciate these shows.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 03, 2021, 11:52:02 PM
To be fair, it was a scam by godlike aliens.

JMS has said that he tried to deliberately leave it unclear whether the religious imagery of various races had been implanted by the Vorlons or merely exploited by them. He has also pointed out that there are many elements of the story where we are not told what the actual objective truth of a situation is, only what the characters think or believe is the truth.  It's possible that this didn't come across as clearly as he wished, but that was at least his intended approach.

That the various races' religions may have been exploited is one thing; that those religions are all nothing but scam is not, I think, a conclusion you can draw from the series itself.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 04, 2021, 12:03:30 AM
That the various races' religions may have been exploited is one thing; that those religions are all nothing but scam is not, I think, a conclusion you can draw from the series itself.
That does make it somewhat better. Anyway I will watch up to season 2 to just get something out of my season purchase at least.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 04, 2021, 08:41:06 AM
Still, season 5 sounds like ALLOT to swallow before it gets to the good parts. I know I dislike the resolution to the Vorlons/Shadow War, but I also disliked the resolution of DS9. Does the show get better at resolving its moral or situational dilemnas inbetween where I am and where it ends (ignoring the ending)?

   Season 2 is where it really picks up steam; Season 3 isn't quite as good but should have enough to keep your interest, IMO. There are chunks of Season 4 I've never seen, but a lot of people swear by it. Season 5 is generally considered a step down but pulls up a bit in the second half, and "Sleeping in Light" has some genuinely touching moments.

   My experience was catching some episodes of Seasons 3 and 4 in syndication--including "Into the Fire," the resolution to the Vorlon/Shadow War, which I found likewise underwhelming--and then marathoning Seasons 1-3 on an episode a day basis in the summer of 1998, when TNT had picked up the series for the fifth season, as well as catching much of Season 5. I enjoyed it, but I don't swear by it like so many do, and I prefer DS9 overall (which I was also watching, having jumped on board at the tail end of Season 3 reruns). I think catching so much of it in retrospect gave me a different perspective than those who got on board at first or who came into it blind, though.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 04, 2021, 09:24:55 AM
To be fair, it was a scam by godlike aliens.

JMS has said that he tried to deliberately leave it unclear whether the religious imagery of various races had been implanted by the Vorlons or merely exploited by them. He has also pointed out that there are many elements of the story where we are not told what the actual objective truth of a situation is, only what the characters think or believe is the truth.  It's possible that this didn't come across as clearly as he wished, but that was at least his intended approach.

That the various races' religions may have been exploited is one thing; that those religions are all nothing but scam is not, I think, a conclusion you can draw from the series itself.
It wasn't just the Vorlons; they were actually among the youngest of the Ancients. The Shadows appear in the religion of the Narn, atl least, and the other Ancients--like the Walkers and Krishiac (sp?)--were in the creation tales of peoples far older than humans.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 04, 2021, 09:35:08 AM
It wasn't just the Vorlons; they were actually among the youngest of the Ancients. The Shadows appear in the religion of the Narn, atl least, and the other Ancients--like the Walkers and Krishiac (sp?)--were in the creation tales of peoples far older than humans.

Which is another one of those things that can be taken either way depending on the viewer: you can take it as reason to be skeptical of religious texts' claims for getting wrong what they witnessed, or you can take it as reason to be open to religious texts' claims when it turns out that what they recorded was actually real.

The idea that nonhuman entities can and will misrepresent themselves to humans (or other mortals) as having a spiritual status they don't in fact possess would not actually be a new concept for most religions, after all.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 04, 2021, 09:39:54 AM
It wasn't just the Vorlons; they were actually among the youngest of the Ancients. The Shadows appear in the religion of the Narn, atl least, and the other Ancients--like the Walkers and Krishiac (sp?)--were in the creation tales of peoples far older than humans.

Which is another one of those things that can be taken either way depending on the viewer: you can take it as reason to be skeptical of religious texts' claims for getting wrong what they witnessed, or you can take it as reason to be open to religious texts' claims when it turns out that what they recorded was actually real.

The idea that nonhuman entities can and will misrepresent themselves to humans (or other mortals) as having a spiritual status they don't in fact possess would not actually be a new concept for most religions, after all.
Of course, if the aliens have the powers of gods (and some additional materials expanded the other Ancients showing some were far beyond the Vorlons), is it really the place of lesser beings to say they are not gods?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 04, 2021, 10:07:02 AM
Of course, if the aliens have the powers of gods (and some additional materials expanded the other Ancients showing some were far beyond the Vorlons), is it really the place of lesser beings to say they are not gods?

Depends on how you define a god. If it's just a matter of comparative individual or social power, that's one thing. If it's a question of superior moral status, or role in creating life and the universe, that's something else.

The entire theme of the Shadow War, if you look at it from that point of view, is the arc by which a child finally achieves enough moral understanding to see where his parents have failed to live up to the morals they taught, and what to do after that moment of realization -- does one take that moment as inspiration to do better oneself, or to give up and throw out those morals entirely? One thing I liked about B5 was its willingness to ask such questions.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Pat on October 04, 2021, 10:18:42 AM
JMS has said that he tried to deliberately leave it unclear whether the religious imagery of various races had been implanted by the Vorlons or merely exploited by them. He has also pointed out that there are many elements of the story where we are not told what the actual objective truth of a situation is, only what the characters think or believe is the truth.  It's possible that this didn't come across as clearly as he wished, but that was at least his intended approach.
It can be hard to sell an unreliable narrator in a serial show with a (fairly) consistent cast who are portrayed mostly sympathetically. Heroic narratives have developed certain conventions, and one of them is that the inevitable infodumps are typically thinly-veiled attempts by the author to explain the setting to the audience, rather than the biased perspective of a character inside the setting. It's hard enough as it is to incorporate background information seamlessly and naturalistically, much less having to fight against the current of expectations.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 04, 2021, 12:06:10 PM
It can be hard to sell an unreliable narrator in a serial show with a (fairly) consistent cast who are portrayed mostly sympathetically. Heroic narratives have developed certain conventions, and one of them is that the inevitable infodumps are typically thinly-veiled attempts by the author to explain the setting to the audience, rather than the biased perspective of a character inside the setting. It's hard enough as it is to incorporate background information seamlessly and naturalistically, much less having to fight against the current of expectations.

True; but then, that's one of the reasons why G'Kar was given a very important line in an early S1 episode, when he said to Catherine Sakai, "No one here is exactly what he appears. Not Mollari, not Sinclair, not Delenn... and not me." JMS has since confirmed that that was meant to be a deliberate heads-up to the viewer not to take everything a character says of himself or his world at face value.

Which is one of the things that will hopefully make a B5 reboot interesting. Now that audiences are primed to be slightly more skeptical, how will narrative arcs be delivered differently?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Banjo Destructo on October 04, 2021, 02:09:06 PM
Well, I am kinda biased, I love B5.   Back when it was broadcast my dad and I purchased enough VHS blank tapes to record every episode in order when it was being rerun.  My wife and I purchased the DVD box sets. And when those went bad we purchased a new box set on DVD last year, along with a box set of the movies (almost all the movies.. dunno why they left out the one or two movies that they did leave out), and crusade (which I hadn't seen until I got the dvd set).  I even played a little bit of "babylon 5: a call to arms"... which led to my sad addiction to "A call to arms: star fleet" which is sad because I can't get anyone to play and I care more about the miniatures than I should.

I generally like JMS as a person even if I disagree with him on some things.  I've been meaning to read his biography.   As for a remake of B5, I'm kinda excited, and kinda dreadful.  I might give it a shot, but I'd just as rather keep what I have now and not deal with any stress about things being different.     I'd rather a brand new tv series that I might not have so much attachment to, in order to give it a better fair shake at a first impression.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 04, 2021, 02:54:50 PM
Well, I am kinda biased, I love B5.   Back when it was broadcast my dad and I purchased enough VHS blank tapes to record every episode in order when it was being rerun.  My wife and I purchased the DVD box sets. And when those went bad we purchased a new box set on DVD last year, along with a box set of the movies (almost all the movies.. dunno why they left out the one or two movies that they did leave out), and crusade (which I hadn't seen until I got the dvd set).  I even played a little bit of "babylon 5: a call to arms"... which led to my sad addiction to "A call to arms: star fleet" which is sad because I can't get anyone to play and I care more about the miniatures than I should.

I generally like JMS as a person even if I disagree with him on some things.  I've been meaning to read his biography.   As for a remake of B5, I'm kinda excited, and kinda dreadful.  I might give it a shot, but I'd just as rather keep what I have now and not deal with any stress about things being different.     I'd rather a brand new tv series that I might not have so much attachment to, in order to give it a better fair shake at a first impression.
I generally preferred B5 Wars over B5 ACTA. You can still find the pdfs needed to play it (and there are a LOT of ships available). I moved to it after years of SFB, and only moved away from it around 2008 after getting back with my SFB buddies that had switched over entirely to FedCom (90% of the options of SFB at 50% of the effort). Still, I may have to dif my B5 Wars stuff out some day soon...
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on October 05, 2021, 12:45:24 PM
One of the things I wonder about the new B5 is the "five year plan."

The original show famously had a 5 year plot outline with a beginning, middle and end. This was great in some ways, but bad in others. It had a pretty good ending, but issues with actor availability and syndication meant that they had to change course at several points during its run. They had to force an ending onto Season 4, for instance, because they didn't think they were getting Season 5. Then they did get Season 5, and had to kind of stretch out the story they had left. Then by the end of season 5, when things were going really well for them, people were like "Why are we ending this?"

So far, the new show has not said "5 year plan" and I wonder if that's not an accident.

I think this time around they probably have a vague outline for roughly five seasons. But I would expect the show to be written more as a set of one-season arcs, with the last one being the finale arc, but with the ability to stretch to six or seven seasons if they are doing great by season 3.

And that's assuming we are getting 20+ episodes in a season. If they shoot it in seasons of 8-12 episodes like Westworld or Game of Thrones, all bets are off.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: HappyDaze on October 05, 2021, 01:17:59 PM
One of the things I wonder about the new B5 is the "five year plan."

The original show famously had a 5 year plot outline with a beginning, middle and end. This was great in some ways, but bad in others. It had a pretty good ending, but issues with actor availability and syndication meant that they had to change course at several points during its run. They had to force an ending onto Season 4, for instance, because they didn't think they were getting Season 5. Then they did get Season 5, and had to kind of stretch out the story they had left. Then by the end of season 5, when things were going really well for them, people were like "Why are we ending this?"

So far, the new show has not said "5 year plan" and I wonder if that's not an accident.

I think this time around they probably have a vague outline for roughly five seasons. But I would expect the show to be written more as a set of one-season arcs, with the last one being the finale arc, but with the ability to stretch to six or seven seasons if they are doing great by season 3.

And that's assuming we are getting 20+ episodes in a season. If they shoot it in seasons of 8-12 episodes like Westworld or Game of Thrones, all bets are off.
Do shows even do 20+ episode seasons anymore? The short season shows seem to be the only thing around.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Banjo Destructo on October 05, 2021, 01:33:15 PM
If they do stick to shorter seasons of 10-12 episodes in this B5 reboot, it will be a lot easier for JMS, who basically wrote almost every episode of the original B5.

I do like when there are episodes that just let you breathe though, develop character relationships while handling smaller day-to-day crises instead of every episode having to be about the big plots.   I miss 20-30 episode seasons.   There's so much more TV these days, but much less at the same time.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on October 05, 2021, 01:35:37 PM
Do shows even do 20+ episode seasons anymore? The short season shows seem to be the only thing around.

Most of JMS's shows have had long seasons, I think. The only one that didn't was Sense8, and it was a Netflix show run by other people.

The Berlantiverse shows on the CW usually have long seasons.

OTOH, if they go for top dollar maxi-series production values, it will probably have short seasons, just to accommodate the post-production. But it will look and sound gorgeous.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 05, 2021, 01:43:45 PM
So far, the new show has not said "5 year plan" and I wonder if that's not an accident.

Well, we don't know much of anything at this point. A few tweets from JMS and some articles commenting on those tweets.

It's hard for me to even have an opinion. I have concerns and trepidations, but nothing solid.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on October 08, 2021, 12:56:19 PM
So far, the new show has not said "5 year plan" and I wonder if that's not an accident.

Well, we don't know much of anything at this point. A few tweets from JMS and some articles commenting on those tweets.

It's hard for me to even have an opinion. I have concerns and trepidations, but nothing solid.

That's sensible. As far as I know, they're in early pre-production on a new pilot. I don't think the script is even finished yet.

The pilot could be a year out, and if the original series is any indication, things could change a lot between the pilot and the first few episodes.

I suspect we will hear from JMS a lot sooner than that, though. One of the things he did with the original B5 was to go online and promote the show before it premiered. He was on Usenet, and there were official B5 forums on GEnie and Compuserve. So by the time a completed pilot was ready, there was an online fanbase primed to seek it out. And he kept it up while the show was running, issuing hints and spoilers, and answering questions from fans about points of trivia and continuity.

EDIT:

Or not. This is from JMS' twitter account:

Quote
Not gonna blab much about what's in the pilot on any subject, much prefer to let folks see it in finished form.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 08, 2021, 01:54:37 PM
The pilot could be a year out, and if the original series is any indication, things could change a lot between the pilot and the first few episodes.

I suspect we will hear from JMS a lot sooner than that, though. EDIT: Or not.

That actually kind of makes sense. Babylon 5 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer were among the first shows to really take advantage of Internet-based interactive marketing, and the success of that means most shows do it now. So now the reboot will stand out by virtue of not doing what has been established as normal, thus fanning the flames of curiosity.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on October 09, 2021, 10:43:29 AM
That actually kind of makes sense. Babylon 5 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer were among the first shows to really take advantage of Internet-based interactive marketing, and the success of that means most shows do it now. So now the reboot will stand out by virtue of not doing what has been established as normal, thus fanning the flames of curiosity.

It may also be a simple matter that JMS and B5 aren't unknowns any more, so he doesn't need to self-promote.

The flurry of news coverage surrounding the announcement proves that.

I hope JMS is making phone calls and trying to get some of the band back together. People like Tim Earls (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0247383/), who designed the Starfury.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ruprecht on October 15, 2021, 06:36:21 PM
On the other hand, though, it is true that B5 had to change course abruptly at a number of points, due to actors becoming unavailable, and threats of early cancellation. It would be interesting to see a version of Babylon 5 that went more according to plan. The show could be tighter overall, and avoid the pacing issues of Seasons 4 and 5.
This is what gives me hope. I loved the series in the day but rewatching it has left me flat. The series had momentum because of the questions raised, once answered it isn't as interesting. Hopefully he'll go back to the oldest story outlines and produce lots of surprises.
I also hope the set designer, prop designer, and costume folks watched the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Spinachcat on October 16, 2021, 04:39:40 AM
CW + B5 + Reboot = Woke Trainwreck

Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: jeff37923 on October 16, 2021, 11:04:57 PM
CW + B5 + Reboot = Woke Trainwreck

I really really hope not.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: tenbones on October 18, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
CW + B5 + Reboot = Woke Trainwreck

Well the word on the street is CW is trying to steer the ship away from SJW waters. Superman and Lois is their first offering in that direction, and I admit, I *finally* got bored and decided to check it out this past week.

I am going to say this... and I can't believe I'm saying it... I'm three episodes in and stunned that CW pulled this off. It's actually *good*. Now it could be that I'm so detached from Hollywood that my expectations were gay Superman, black transfemale Lois, and their Furry, Quad-spirited Siamese Twin boys, both bisexual and bi-gendered incest fans. But to my utter amazement the show pays homage to Superman as he should be.

So if any of this is true, it gives me an atom of hope that JMS and CW pulls it off... if not? Well it's one more atom atop the Himalayan-sized pile of dashed hopes and dreams Hollywood degenerates have made of my childhood franchises.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:16:39 PM
CW + B5 + Reboot = Woke Trainwreck

Well the word on the street is CW is trying to steer the ship away from SJW waters. Superman and Lois is their first offering in that direction, and I admit, I *finally* got bored and decided to check it out this past week.

I am going to say this... and I can't believe I'm saying it... I'm three episodes in and stunned that CW pulled this off. It's actually *good*. Now it could be that I'm so detached from Hollywood that my expectations were gay Superman, black transfemale Lois, and their Furry, Quad-spirited Siamese Twin boys, both bisexual and bi-gendered incest fans. But to my utter amazement the show pays homage to Superman as he should be.

Interesting. I'm tempted to give it a try, then.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 18, 2021, 08:00:21 PM
Interesting. I'm tempted to give it a try, then.

I've seen the whole season and I can attest to this. Not just non-SJ but well-written and exciting to boot. Moves like a sonova, too.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 08:51:51 PM
I've seen the whole season as well. I'm not going to say Superman & Lois is the best ever, but it's really solid. The F/X are also quite good. They don't dance around the fact that Superman has overwhelming strength and speed.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 01:34:41 PM
Well, not to derail, maybe we need a new thread for the Superman & Lois show, but I watched the first episode and it wasn't too bad. I have nitpicks, but overall I liked it.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Aglondir on November 10, 2021, 09:03:16 PM
I love B5, but JMS needs to hit it out of the park with this. Considering:

Season 5 ranged from ok to awful (until the Sleeping in Light finale)
Legend of the Rangers was cringeworthy
Crusade was passable at best
Lost Tales (or was it Forgotten Tales?) was meh

It doesn't give me great hope. Has he done any TV or movies since B5?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Banjo Destructo on November 11, 2021, 09:03:38 AM
I love B5, but JMS needs to hit it out of the park with this. Considering:

Season 5 ranged from ok to awful (until the Sleeping in Light finale)
Legend of the Rangers was cringeworthy
Crusade was passable at best
Lost Tales (or was it Forgotten Tales?) was meh

It doesn't give me great hope. Has he done any TV or movies since B5?

"Sense 8" & "Jeremiah" are two tv shows he created after B5.  He wrote stories for some movies.  Did some comic books too.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: jeff37923 on November 14, 2021, 07:01:20 AM
I love B5, but JMS needs to hit it out of the park with this. Considering:

Season 5 ranged from ok to awful (until the Sleeping in Light finale)
Legend of the Rangers was cringeworthy
Crusade was passable at best
Lost Tales (or was it Forgotten Tales?) was meh

It doesn't give me great hope. Has he done any TV or movies since B5?

The biggest thing that he has been involved with is the dispensation of the Harlan Ellison estate following that author's death. This includes the publication of The Last Dangerous Visions.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
Post by: Lurkndog on November 21, 2021, 10:36:13 AM
I love B5, but JMS needs to hit it out of the park with this. Considering:

Season 5 ranged from ok to awful (until the Sleeping in Light finale)
Legend of the Rangers was cringeworthy
Crusade was passable at best
Lost Tales (or was it Forgotten Tales?) was meh

It doesn't give me great hope. Has he done any TV or movies since B5?

I think you could make the case that Crusade was cancelled before it got a chance to hit its stride. There were scripts floating around for two or three episodes that never got filmed, and they had some major reveals in them. As with B5, the initial setup was intended to launch the series, and then be superseded by the real central plot, which would have begun around Season 2. Season 1 was supposed to end with an assassination attempt on Matthew Gideon on Mars. Not sure if it was supposed to be successful or not. And the "save the Earth" storyline would be over by the second season.