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Author Topic: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development  (Read 1695 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2021, 04:43:19 PM »
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?

HappyDaze

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2021, 04:52:11 PM »
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?
It was also only through military strength that Earth Force saved the League of Non-Aligned Worlds from the Dilgar.

Zelen

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2021, 07:20:14 PM »
What makes you say that? B5 had some pretty dark parts to it between Londo & G'Kar as well as the EarthGov / PsiCorps.

I only watched season 1, but so much of it was "EVIL" anti-alienists. Or about how the government was wrong for spending on military stuff.
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?

I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

At the same time your critique isn't really informed since you only watched the first season. Definitely the weakest, and doesn't introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2021, 07:37:19 PM »
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.

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introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.
I read some of the spoilers (The aliens where morons, got their leader killed, and then blamed the humans for it). From said spoilers they don't seem to make it better.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 07:38:55 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

HappyDaze

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2021, 07:46:35 PM »
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.

Quote
introduce much of the later elements that actually give some context & explain some of the issues you're hung up on.
I read some of the spoilers (The aliens where morons, got their leader killed, and then blamed the humans for it). From said spoilers they don't seem to make it better.
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed--it was poor diplomacy and arrogance. Their military was weak compared to the Minbari, but so were all of the younger races (the Minbari were the pets of the Vernon's, one of the Ancient races).

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2021, 08:13:04 PM »
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed-

It was. If a human came up to a unfamiliar animal, and then started yelling loudly at it and moving aggressively towards it arms overhead here is 2 things that can happen:
  • The animal runs away. Best case.
  • The animal attacks.
We would call the human a moron if after getting his gonads mauled, he would demand the extermination of that species. Now sadly there are plenty of moronic humans, but thats beyond the point.
The reason the Minbari decided to attack the humans was pure contrivance (and I could list reasons why), but they could have written a less contrived method of why they decided to exterminate the entire race based apon the actions of a few.
Regardless of what that reason was, the Minbari decided to exterminate the human race based upon the actions of a few. And the only reason they stopped was because they didn't decide to closely inspect their targets up close beforehand.

Even if we go with 'And we try to be hunky dory with the Minbari', its been established that the Minbari are cretins that could be setoff by somebody farting too loudly. If you had that sort of neighbor, I would do everything possible to be ready for another attack by them in case they felt that the humans eyebrows where to fuzzy that day and they needed to cull 75% of them.

Zelen

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2021, 08:26:45 PM »
I mean, I think you have a point but this is just such a conventional problem to get caught up on. Fictional stories almost always accelerate time in this way, so you can both have some major event in the past, as well as have new major events occurring to the same set of characters.

Stories don't always do this, and when they do it actually does bother me. And the '10 years' part was my smallest part of the hangup. Even if it happened 100 years ago, being anti-military when a weak military almost ended up spelling humanities doom is a hard sell. Thats what I mean by niaeve.


You seem to be assuming that humans behave perfectly logically. I just don't agree. Twenty years ago the US suffered a devastating attack because "our" government let in a couple of migrants without properly vetting them for extremist beliefs & connections. Today "our" government is rushing to import as many unvetted migrants as possible, with predictable results.

While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 08:28:59 PM by Zelen »

HappyDaze

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2021, 08:36:50 PM »
It wasn't a weak military that almost got the Earth Alliance destroyed-

It was. If a human came up to a unfamiliar animal, and then started yelling loudly at it and moving aggressively towards it arms overhead here is 2 things that can happen:
  • The animal runs away. Best case.
  • The animal attacks.
We would call the human a moron if after getting his gonads mauled, he would demand the extermination of that species. Now sadly there are plenty of moronic humans, but thats beyond the point.
The reason the Minbari decided to attack the humans was pure contrivance (and I could list reasons why), but they could have written a less contrived method of why they decided to exterminate the entire race based apon the actions of a few.
Regardless of what that reason was, the Minbari decided to exterminate the human race based upon the actions of a few. And the only reason they stopped was because they didn't decide to closely inspect their targets up close beforehand.

Even if we go with 'And we try to be hunky dory with the Minbari', its been established that the Minbari are cretins that could be setoff by somebody farting too loudly. If you had that sort of neighbor, I would do everything possible to be ready for another attack by them in case they felt that the humans eyebrows where to fuzzy that day and they needed to cull 75% of them.
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2021, 08:37:36 PM »
While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
Its more the show framing anti-warfare as moral and rightous is what makes me call the show naive. This isn't me calling the show terrible. Its just what bothered me.

The episode that made me quit watching the show (and just read synopsises), was when Jeffrey Sinclair gets out of a moral dilemna by just handing the military budget to striking workers. And what I had seen before of the show hadn't impressed me either.

Im ...eh... about Star Trek, but Deep Space 9 impressed me. It challenged its own convictions without just shitting on them STD style. I ultimately hated how it resolved, but it I could so often feel the writers actually trying to get out of their own headspace. Often failing, but it was the thought that counts. When they needed to make a defense of capitalism, they did a heartfelt (but pathetic) attempt. And I apreciated that.

Babylon 5 seemed (and from what I read sems) to always take the way more shlocky and easy route. RELIGEON AM BAD. DIVERSITY & SHIT. WAR AM DUM. Star Trek is very guilty of often doing the same, but when it didn't, thats when it stood out as exceptional.

HappyDaze

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2021, 08:40:28 PM »
While we generally shouldn't accept real life levels of cartoonish evil and incompetence in fiction, having the humans in the B5 universe move on relatively quickly from the Minbari war to accepting a role as one of the major diplomatic players on the galactic stage without going into full-on-militarism doesn't seem unreasonable.
Its more the show framing anti-warfare as moral and rightous is what makes me call the show naive. This isn't me calling the show terrible. Its just what bothered me.

The episode that made me quit watching the show (and just read synopsises), was when Jeffrey Sinclair gets out of a moral dilemna by just handing the military budget to striking workers. And what I had seen before of the show hadn't impressed me either.

Im ...eh... about Star Trek, but Deep Space 9 impressed me. It challenged its own convictions without just shitting on them STD style. I ultimately hated how it resolved, but it I could so often feel the writers actually trying to get out of their own headspace. Often failing, but it was the thought that counts. When they needed to make a defense of capitalism, they did a heartfelt (but pathetic) attempt. And I apreciated that.

Babylon 5 seemed (and from what I read sems) to always take the way more shlocky and easy route. RELIGEON AM BAD. DIVERSITY & SHIT. WAR AM DUM. Star Trek is very guilty of often doing the same, but when it didn't, thats when it stood out as exceptional.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2021, 08:51:18 PM »
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.

Had the Minbari never contacted another alien species before? Or are humans just #37 on the list of species they exterminated when their classic hail sign 'Jam their engines and open gun ports' for SOME reason triggers hostility. Its a contrived stupid reason. But no matter the reason, no matter how prideful and stupid the humans where (and in this case they where not) that is no excuse for mass species genocide, especially if they had actually contacted other species before, and therefore would know basic shit like 'Our sensors jam their engines and look threatening'.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Because 95% of all its portrayals of religeon portray its followers as closeminded and stupid. And that religeon is effectively a scam by aliens.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2021, 08:52:31 PM »
This is a setting where humanity was just purely accidentally spared from a war of extermination by a species of alien idiots. 10 years ago.

It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Quote
Bitch PLEASE! The earth should be militarizing itself in every shape and form possible after that! Maybe the next time a alien race decides to exterminate humanity, the military will buy itself enough time for the aliens to conduct genetic tests on humans BEFORE they are knocking on the door on the home planet.

People talk about the war as if the aliens attacked like 100 years ago. But 10?? Are you MAD?

Even if earth had the resources, they couldn't match the Minbari. The Earth Alliance had a thousand year tech gap, and a smashed infrastructure.
The military wouldn't buy diddly doo dah. Even the Battle of the Line was just target practice for the Minbari.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2021, 08:58:55 PM »
It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Wow that makes it even DUMBER.
But thats just me. B5 did not impress me, and I found its writing on the simplistic side. I don't want to rile the fans of the show for the reasons they like it. I have made my position clear.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2021, 09:02:17 PM »
Imagine if the EA would have taken time to send a non-military contact out to the Minbari. Perhaps with some assistance from the League or even the Centauri. But no, arrogance and stupidity efficiently led to disaster.

Had the Minbari never contacted another alien species before? Or are humans just #37 on the list of species they exterminated when their classic hail sign 'Jam their engines and open gun ports' for SOME reason triggers hostility. Its a contrived stupid reason. But no matter the reason, no matter how prideful and stupid the humans where (and in this case they where not) that is no excuse for mass species genocide, especially if they had actually contacted other species before, and therefore would know basic shit like 'Our sensors jam their engines and look threatening'.
You felt that B5 said RELIGION AM BAD? Why did you think this?

Because 95% of all its portrayals of religeon portray its followers as closeminded and stupid. And that religeon is effectively a scam by aliens.

You seem to have made up your mind. It would be pointless to point out the positive portrayal of real earth religions later in the series.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Ratman_tf

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Re: Babylon 5 Reboot in Development
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2021, 09:04:27 PM »
It wasn't a pure accident. Spoilers for a 30 year old sci fi series, but Sinclair/Valen knew how the war would turn out, and why, and left instructions which became prophecy.
But a thousand years can test faith, and dilute the message, and not everyone believed him.

Wow that makes it even DUMBER.
But thats just me. B5 did not impress me, and I found its writing on the simplistic side. I don't want to rile the fans of the show for the reasons they like it. I have made my position clear.

The CAPS LOCK really sells your argument.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung