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Author Topic: Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?  (Read 7945 times)

StormBringer

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #225 on: January 08, 2010, 07:01:50 pm »
Quote from: Aos;354158
Gomi, Taro
1977 Everybody Poops
What if I haven't pooped in a couple of days?
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #226 on: January 08, 2010, 07:19:02 pm »
Quote from: StormBringer;354172
What if I haven't pooped in a couple of days?


That might go a long way to explaining your intellectual constipation .

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #227 on: January 08, 2010, 07:24:15 pm »
Quote from: RPGPundit;354181
That might go a long way to explaining your intellectual constipation .

RPGPundit


Ha ha and your intellectual diarrhea. :teehee:

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #228 on: January 08, 2010, 07:31:06 pm »
Quote from: StormBringer;354168
So, the numerous cholera outbreaks in Europe and North America between 1830 and 1900 were because they hadn't gotten the benefits of civilization yet?  


Civilization is a process, and we're better both at it and for it than we were 100 years ago; even in our own backyards.

Quote
You realize that even with your self-selecting version of 'civilization', there are numerous Western countries still afflicted with those problems you cite as having been corrected?  


And you realize that the relative improvement over the past two centuries has been nothing short of astounding?

Quote
And countless non-Western nations that suffer even more, despite your claims that Western colonialism efforts set them on the road to prosperity?


What I actually claimed is that it provided them with significant improvements in their lives, and that the level to which they have sustained and built on those improvements is directly related to how much of western civilization they chose to throw out after independence.

Quote

Yes, hence, why I said it was the #1 third world nation, by your own admission.  Most of us live elsewhere, places where we can't afford to hire a maid for pesos a day by exploiting poor indigenous labour, because our cost of living is tied to a more expensive economy.  You are in a perfect position to incorrectly judge the middle class in America


You're in a perfect position to not have a fucking clue what you're talking about, apparently. If we could just reverse-engineer the process that led you to your current level of dumbfuck ignorance about the world in general, we might be able to make great strides in assuring it wasn't repeated in future generations.

Quote

As has been pointed out to you several times now, I made no mention of poverty.  You can keep bringing it up, but it will continue to be irrelevant.


But you should be mentioning poverty... well, really you shouldn't because as soon as it comes up  your argument is revealed for the absurd ridiculousness that it is.

Quote

What the fuck are you talking about?!

I have no idea how Jong and Sunboy managed to get dragged into this.


You suggested that I live "in complete lack of contact with the middle and lower class". Well, my regular contact is with, among others, Jong and Sunboy, who are most definitely not the ultra-rich landowning oligarchs you seem to think I while away my days with.

Quote

And, if you needed further demonstration as to the nature of many economies sliding back into feudalism, you need look no further than your own statements:
"I'm surrounded by people who work 40-hour weeks for $200-$600 per month and are unbelievably fucking grateful to have it."
"I probably see more REAL poverty on any given Tuesday than you have your entire fucking life."


I see, so now you've switched from the whole "you're a rich guy who can't possibly know what's going on" to "your statements prove what's going on"? Its hard to keep things straight with you...


Quote

You have no concept of what a Western middle class life entails, and yet go to great lengths to defend it as the nirvana of existence.


Dude; I grew up surrounded by the western middle class; and a rudimentary knowledge of history reveals it to be a pretty fucking spectacular existence compared to what 99.99% of humanity before us and to this day get to live.

Quote
The reality for the Western middle class (and especially American middle class) worker is that their economic fate is no more in their own hands than it was a millennium ago.


Yes, I get that this is the crux of what you're trying to argue. Unfortunately, you are in fact laughably, ridiculously WRONG.

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Edsan

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #229 on: January 08, 2010, 07:55:16 pm »
Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Wait, you just said he was honourable, but now the evidence of his dis-honesty is irrelevant?

What dis-honesty? Did he break any word given or failed to abide a contract?

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Or, you know, to prevent genocide.

Or, you know, to get a piece of alien ass.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
There is more to honour and leadership than that, actually.

Yes there is...your point being?

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
No, he merely stated that he could.  We have no idea whether or not it was actually possible, or that he intended to do so.
 

We obviously haven't seen the same movie then...possible since we live in different countries and might have gotten different cuts/versions.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Assuming the general could actually deliver on that promise, Jake took actions to prevent an entire group of people from getting wiped out in preference to walking again.
 

Ok, now I know we haven't seen the same movie.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
I will leave it to the reader to decide which is more honourable.

This reader disagrees with you.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Or, it's a narrative device.  What reasons do you imagine for them not exploiting the other resources instead of that specific vein?

What? You're asking me to explain the nonsensical bits of Cameron's movie to you?

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
And why wasn't that plot explored, do you think?

Ask Cameron. I don't know and I don't really care. Movie's done, over.  

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Or, it could be that his personal code of honour was wrong.  Which might even be the point, there.

That is your personal opinion and you are entitled to it.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Meaningless.  All manner of atrocity has been committed by people with a strong code of honour.  Tom Cruise even starred in a movie which demonstrated the differences.

Yes. The Colonel did his share of atrocity in the movie, so did Jake, so did the Na'avi, so did the animals, so did the Goddess (through more animals), even the geek scientist guy took lives. At the end of the day all were assassins. Take your pick, I just happen to like my assassin of choice...he was cool.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
They both require critical thinking processes.  Other than that, I made no other correllation.

So it was a useless comparison then?

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Only when you use 'art' in a qualitative sense.  Categorically, a movie is 'art', regardless of your opinion of it, and the producer of such is an 'artist'.

I concede.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
Again, you have yet to demonstrate that.

You haven't demonstrated anything much either. I tyre of your demands to be spoon-feed a justification for every line I write. Learn to think on your own for a bit.

Quote from: StormBringer;354130
And again, this must be demonstrated.
 

No it doesn't. Spoon-feeding is over.

Quote from: RPGPundit;354132
Yeah, sorry Edsan, this movie strikes me as many shades of wrong, but one thing that it doesn't strike me as is a movie made in Corporate Committee.  It is very much the vision of one artist. That its "art" doesn't mean it can't suck, though. Lots of art sucks.  

Again, I concede.
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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #230 on: January 08, 2010, 08:43:54 pm »
Quote from: Edsan;354209
What dis-honesty? Did he break any word given or failed to abide a contract?
I hope that isn't the sum-total of what you consider 'honourable'.

Quote
Or, you know, to get a piece of alien ass.
Well, you can keep repeating it, but you will continue to re-inforce your complete lack of understanding.

Quote
Yes there is...your point being?
That you have failed to notice the ways in which that character utterly failed to uphold those?

 
Quote
We obviously haven't seen the same movie then...possible since we live in different countries and might have gotten different cuts/versions.
Aside from a few idioms here and there, I have serious doubts the movie was drastically different.

 
Quote
Ok, now I know we haven't seen the same movie.
Only because you were not watching the important parts in your quest to ferret out the race traitors.

Quote
This reader disagrees with you.
Which, without any supporting argument, is meaningless.

Quote
What? You're asking me to explain the nonsensical bits of Cameron's movie to you?
Well, it works like this.

"That is a stupid colour to paint the walls."
"I like that colour, it matches the carpet."
"It's stupid."
"What colour do you think is better?"
"You're asking me to explain the nonsensical bits of the wall colour to you?"

If you take the effort to point out how poorly something is done, one expects you to have some kind of reasoning behind the criticism.  Absent that, your role in a discussion becomes pointless.

Quote
Ask Cameron. I don't know and I don't really care. Movie's done, over.  
And making over a billion dollars.  I will trust the general public and Mr Cameron's judgment in this case, as you decline to offer any reason for your disagreement.

Quote
That is your personal opinion and you are entitled to it.
So, you have nothing, then?

Quote
Yes. The Colonel did his share of atrocity in the movie, so did Jake, so did the Na'avi, so did the animals, so did the Goddess (through more animals), even the geek scientist guy took lives. At the end of the day all were assassins. Take your pick, I just happen to like my assassin of choice...he was cool.
Which does nothing to show he was an honourable character and refute that he was simply a sadistic killer.

Quote
So it was a useless comparison then?
Not really, but it may be lost on you.

Quote
You haven't demonstrated anything much either. I tyre of your demands to be spoon-feed a justification for every line I write. Learn to think on your own for a bit.
Wait, you are claiming the sadistic general is an honourable man because you think he's cool, and then proceed to advise me to think on my own?

Clearly, you are trolling at this point.

Quote
No it doesn't. Spoon-feeding is over.
Yes, it is.  You have no concept of cinematic or literary devices, characterization, or pacing.  Your opinion regarding this movie, to which you are certainly entitled,  has no validity.  I'm not going to walk you through the steps to demonstrating a supported point any longer.

Simply, you are wrong in every way possible about your interpretation of this movie.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

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StormBringer

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #231 on: January 08, 2010, 09:15:30 pm »
Quote from: RPGPundit;354194
Civilization is a process, and we're better both at it and for it than we were 100 years ago; even in our own backyards.
Is this meant to be some kind of thundering epiphany?  We are better at progress because of progress.  Good eye.

However, you don't seem to have a response to all those savages that die from cholera outbreaks.  Did you have a specific outbreak in mind?

Quote
And you realize that the relative improvement over the past two centuries has been nothing short of astounding?
Relative to...?

Quote
What I actually claimed is that it provided them with significant improvements in their lives, and that the level to which they have sustained and built on those improvements is directly related to how much of western civilization they chose to throw out after independence.
Really?  You are really saying that?  In other words, as they throw off the enlightenment of the West, the regress again into savagery.  Like the Chinese.  Or the Egyptians.  Or the Middle East.

Quote
You're in a perfect position to not have a fucking clue what you're talking about, apparently. If we could just reverse-engineer the process that led you to your current level of dumbfuck ignorance about the world in general, we might be able to make great strides in assuring it wasn't repeated in future generations.
Says the man in the ivory tower who can't figure out a simple analogy regarding feudalism.

Quote
But you should be mentioning poverty... well, really you shouldn't because as soon as it comes up  your argument is revealed for the absurd ridiculousness that it is.
Oh?  Do tell how this sweeping Western civilization has eradicated poverty and enhanced every nation where its boot has trod.  Why don't you start with South America, perhaps Uruguay specifically?

Quote
You suggested that I live "in complete lack of contact with the middle and lower class". Well, my regular contact is with, among others, Jong and Sunboy, who are most definitely not the ultra-rich landowning oligarchs you seem to think I while away my days with.
Not even remotely what I said.  You might want to apply a bit of the reading comprehension you developed at university.  I said you like to play the part of the genteel, sophisticate landowner, replete with servants and the patriarch's pipe.

Quote
I see, so now you've switched from the whole "you're a rich guy who can't possibly know what's going on" to "your statements prove what's going on"? Its hard to keep things straight with you...
Again, with just a modicum of comprehension, you will notice that is actually the same thing.  The biggest barrier is your obliviousness.  You see no disparity in playing the jaded ex-pat with some extra coin, lecturing people on cultural issues and at the same time exploiting the effects of a depressed economy on the locals to your advantage.  As I said, I can't afford a maid; nor can the vast majority of people in America.  You are able to afford one by exploiting the poverty of the indigenous people, which is exactly how colonialism operates.

Despite your claims of the opulence and erudition of the West descending on those poor benighted savages (if only they would accept it!), it is simply nothing more than your current living arrangement.

Quote
Dude; I grew up surrounded by the western middle class; and a rudimentary knowledge of history reveals it to be a pretty fucking spectacular existence compared to what 99.99% of humanity before us and to this day get to live.
Only from the 'technology = civilized' perspective.  Regardless of your obstinate refusal to acknowledge it, there are other perspectives that don't place quite the emphasis on technology for its own sake as a requisite for civilization.

Quote
Yes, I get that this is the crux of what you're trying to argue. Unfortunately, you are in fact laughably, ridiculously WRONG.
A claim which, had you anything besides your wilful misinterpretations and strawman arguments to back up, I might take under consideration.

As it stands, I don't make this up whole cloth.  There are any number of articles from the recent past that correctly predicted this trend, or the acceleration of this trend.  Current articles re-inforce many of the concepts with any number of reports and statistics.

Hence, I am impressed by your confidence, but much like our friend Amir, confidence and a quick response do not a valid answer make.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

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Edsan

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #232 on: January 08, 2010, 11:13:13 pm »
Stormbringer, seriously.

You can drop the holier-than-thou attitude now. I was trying to have a meaningful discussion but you limited yourself to ask justifications about every sentence I wrote, going as far as entering into semantic games.

But I'll play your game...you rogue. Let's have fun!


Well, you can keep repeating it, but you will continue to re-statement your complete lack of understanding.


"Your lack of understanding was demonstrated beforehand when you choose to counter my statement with a variation of itself lacking any supporting arguments."

 
Only because you were not watching the important parts in your quest to ferret out the race traitors.


"I went to the movie with an open mind and only at the end did I reach my conclusions. Your assumptions about my mind-set and your persistence in equating me with xenophobia are somewhat disturbing, due to what they indicate about your own persona."


Which, without any supporting argument, is meaningless.


"Indeed. Likewise, you have failed to provide any meaning or support to your discourse. It is curious, however, that you notice the imperfections of my writing with such vehement zeal while ignoring your own."


Well, it works like this.

"That is a stupid colour to paint the walls."
"I like that colour, it matches the carpet."
"It's stupid."
"What colour do you think is better?"
"You're asking me to explain the nonsensical bits of the wall colour to you?"


"I would detail and explain if I felt there was any use in a continued dialogue. Your discourse being limited to variations of "I do not agree with you" and obtuse questions focusing on semantics, denies any possible utility in said dialogue."



If you take the effort to point out how poorly something is done, one expects you to have some kind of reasoning behind the criticism.  Absent that, your role in a discussion becomes pointless.


"If you take the effort to point out how goodly something is done or express your total disagreement with someone, one expects you to have some kind of reasoning behind the criticism.  Absent that, your role in a discussion becomes pointless."


This is some nice shit! :)

Storm, honestly. What did you study? This is genius! Tearing someone's opinions and arguments apart with such ease while maintaining a veneer of petulant civility and at the same avoiding to commit any real opinions about the subject matter. Where did you learn this?!


And making over a billion dollars.  I will trust the general public and Mr Cameron's judgment in this case, as you decline to offer any reason for your disagreement.


"Russel's Teapot as long ago invalidated that train of thought; it is therefore meaningless and devoid of any value."

 
or...

"The celebration of the intrinsic artistic value of something based on a combination of blind capitalist results, the opinion of the masses and the opinion of the creator, is so riddled with bias that it is unusable as a logical argument."

Not really, but it may be lost on you.


Calling someone stupid with pretty euphemisms: Check. Worth remembering for future use. :p

Wait, you are claiming the sadistic general is an honorable man because you think he's cool, and then proceed to advise me to think on my own?

Clearly, you are trolling at this point.


Indeed I am, but you where trolling well before (albeit very politely and deceitfully) ;)  That one was just to see your reaction. I'm on to your game and this one caught you open.



You have no concept of cinematic or literary devices, characterization, or pacing.  


"You have shown no qualification to judge someone on their level of familiarity with any of those concepts; neither have you shown any evidence you are familiarized yourself with them beyond knowing they exist"
 

Man, this shit really, really works. :eek:

Let's try some more...

Your opinion regarding this movie, to which you are certainly entitled,  has no validity.  

"Your opinion regarding my opinion, to which you are certainly entitled,  has no validity."


Or...

"Even if your mistaken assumption that the validity of my option is zero proved somehow to be correct, it would still be numerically superior to yours, which can be resumed to a total contradiction of all I have opinionated."


I'm not going to walk you through the steps to demonstrating a supported point any longer.


"You phrase is a fallacy, you provided neither statement of intent nor indication that you where guiding me through an educational path."

Or...

"Your offer of help is as welcome as it is useless since I already master the process you intended to tutor me in. "



Simply, you are wrong in every way possible about your interpretation of this movie.

"To put it plainly, your conclusion regarding my thoughts on this movie, to which you are certainly entitled, is erroneous, totally lacking in support, and demonstrates a failure to grasp my arguments; therefore it has no validity."


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


Now, in all honesty. I am gladly willing to learn anything you want to teach me, cinema or otherwise, as long as you come clean on your offer and drop the BS coffe-shop semantics line.

Peace. ;)

And thanks for teaching me something today.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:17:56 pm by Edsan »
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« Reply #233 on: January 09, 2010, 01:57:50 am »
Quote from: Edsan;354239
Stormbringer, seriously.

You can drop the holier-than-thou attitude now. I was trying to have a meaningful discussion but you limited yourself to ask justifications about every sentence I wrote, going as far as entering into semantic games.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Quote
Well, you can keep repeating it...

Hollow mimicking without understanding does not make you look better.

Quote
Storm, honestly. What did you study? This is genius! Tearing someone's opinions and arguments apart with such ease while maintaining a veneer of petulant civility and at the same avoiding to commit any real opinions about the subject matter. Where did you learn this?!

My opinions on this matter are perfectly clear, actually, I have made no attempt to hide them.  That you are unable to discern them is not my responsibility.


Quote
Russel's Teapot as long ago invalidated that train of thought; it is therefore meaningless and devoid of any value.

Russell's teapot was fairly specifically in regards to demonstration of the unprovable not having to fall on the one expressing disbelief.  Essentially, you undermine your own position by mentioning it.  It can be summarized as 'those that assert assume the burden of proof'.


Quote
The celebration of the intrinsic artistic value of something based on a combination of blind capitalist results, the opinion of the masses and the opinion of the creator, is so riddled with bias that it is unusable as a logical argument."

I'm suggesting your unsupported opinion is diametrically opposed to the general consensus, and you might want to consider why that is.  A gigantic number of people seem to think there is some worthwhile story in there.

Hence, when you are discussing that 'race traitor movie with the virtuous general getting killed in the end', don't be too surprised when others give you a funny look.

Quote
Indeed I am, but you where trolling well before (albeit very politely and deceitfully) ;)  That one was just to see your reaction. I'm on to your game and this one caught you open.

Reflexively casting the same arguments back is not the height of cleverness, and you really didn't 'catch' me at anything.

Quote
You have shown no qualification to judge someone on their level of familiarity with any of those concepts; neither have you shown any evidence you are familiarized yourself with them beyond knowing they exist

Really?  Because you think the general was the honourable character, and don't understand the motivations for Jake or any of the other characters.  Are you really sure you want to point out that someone else doesn't understand characterization?  

Quote
Your opinion regarding my opinion...

Well, ok...  It's your choice, really.  You have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that you had no valid premise going into this.  You have removed any lingering doubt whatsoever that your opinion merited any serious consideration.  The results are yours to enjoy.

Quote
Now, in all honesty. I am gladly willing to learn anything you want to teach me, cinema or otherwise, as long as you come clean on your offer and drop the BS coffe-shop semantics line.

Indiscriminately placing value in any statement that is an 'opinion' is the highest form of what you call 'coffee-shop' discourse.  Your refusal to provide any kind of reasoning for your opinion is the aberration, not my insistence on it.

Quote
And thanks for teaching me something today.

Anytime.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.'
 - Thomas Paine
'Everything doesn't need to be a brutal education.'
-Cranewings

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« Reply #234 on: January 09, 2010, 11:04:46 am »
Quote from: StormBringer;354225
Relative to...?

The previous 2 millions years of human existence. In the entirety of known human history, there was never a time when the human race as a whole was doing as well, living as well, thinking as much, knowing as much, learning as much, living as long, feeling as healthy, caring as much for one another, or growing as much in general as it is today.

Quote
 Like the Chinese.  

The Chinese are their own Civilization, which never really got a profound contact with western civilization. They have their own virtues and values, some of them magnificent, others rather lamentable.
Again, all told, if one of the two are going to be our future Overlords, I'd much rather it be India with its relatively profound western influence, than China with its relative shallow western influence.

Quote
Oh?  Do tell how this sweeping Western civilization has eradicated poverty and enhanced every nation where its boot has trod.  Why don't you start with South America, perhaps Uruguay specifically?

Sure. Uruguay in the 19th century was known as "the Purple Land" because its green fields were stained with blood until they turned purple. Travelogues of the time detail how its people massacred themselves in the internecine warfare known as the "Guerra Grande", the people lived in an abject and miserable poverty, and general backwardness.
Then along came the great reformers: Varela and Rodo, who transformed the education system, making it "free, secular and obligatory" for everyone, modeling it in the continental european model.  Battle did the same with government, modeling the Uruguayan state after the French welfare state. Within 50 years of it having been known as the "Purple Lands" and being one of the most violent, insecure and unstable parts of South America, Uruguay came to be known as the "Switzerland of South America", one of the wealthiest, most prosperous, most stable, and most peaceful countries in South America.
THAT, sir, is what Civilization does for people.


Quote
Only from the 'technology = civilized' perspective.  Regardless of your obstinate refusal to acknowledge it, there are other perspectives that don't place quite the emphasis on technology for its own sake as a requisite for civilization.

And you like to lecture me on reading comprehension. I was NEVER arguing that it was technology that equals civilization. That is just your plan of attack. Ok, so its not lack of reading comprehension as it is outright dishonesty.
It isn't about technology, its about a framework of civil ethics, that leads to progress, that leads to an improvement in quality of life.
The Romans had very little technology compared to us but they had a spectacular sense of  civil ethics, and had a correspondingly high quality of life.


Quote
confidence and a quick response do not a valid answer make.

How does one really validly "answer" someone suggesting something as atrocious as that the modern middle class have it as bad as the Serfs? It is a class-based blindness combined with historical ignorance to form the Perfect Storm of offensiveness.

I'm sorry you don't like your job at Wal-mart, or wherever. But seriously, even in this economy, even with declining job prospects, if you were to change places for one fucking day with a peasant from medieval europe, assuming you survived to see the next sunrise, you'd be fucking begging to return to this society.  And the fact that you seriously try to assert otherwise just makes you look like such an utterly small-minded, utterly self-absorb pig-idiot who really believes "no one has it as bad as we do" when he's getting to live better than fucking monarchs did, with far more freedoms of both the abstract and the downright pragmatic than almost any other human being who ever lived has gotten to have, and you're fucking COMPLAINING. How blindingly willfully ignorant you are is only believable compared to how incredibly fucking spoiled you are.

There is no society in the history of man which has been better for the general commonwealth of its people than our own.

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JongWK

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #235 on: January 09, 2010, 11:13:29 am »
Does this thread have anything to do with the OP at this point? Or are we back to mindless king-of-the-forum-hill behaviour?
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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #236 on: January 09, 2010, 12:27:02 pm »
/kicks Jong in face/beats chest!
You are posting in a troll thread.

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Avatar: Anti-humanism, Anti-civilization and Empty-headed Holywood Religion?
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2010, 01:17:03 pm »
Quote from: JongWK;354305
Does this thread have anything to do with the OP at this point? Or are we back to mindless king-of-the-forum-hill behaviour?


That's fair enough. If someone wants to start another thread about Avatar here, or about my social views on my subforum, feel free.

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LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

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Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.