Quote from: StormBringer;354095He wasn't particularly honourable, actually.  While the previous negotiation breakdowns may have warranted a bit more aggressive posture, rolling in and nuking their home isn't really 'honourable'.

Irrelevant, he was a mercenary and had made no agreements or even contacts with the Na'vi. Besides I was merely refering to his honor in dealing with fellow humans, not aliens.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095Plus, he perverted Jake's entire mission into one of covert intel rather than good faith cultural exchange with the natives.

To which Jake agreed readily until he decided to betray him for a piece of alien ass.

Another way to put it would be that he found a way to gather intel easier, faster and without risking the lives of his men.

That's pretty damn honorable for a military leader. Get the job done, take care of your own.

And he DID get Jake a means to get his legs back as he had promissed, but the lure of having a giant blue dick was too strong, I guess.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095Additionally, the movie indicates the source of unobtanium below their tree wasn't the only vein of the mineral, just the largest.  They could have spent their resources much more efficiently locating and gathering the other deposits instead of focussing on the one motherlode and their pursuit of running the natives off at any cost.

Indeed, one of the many plotholes and inconsistecies of the movie. We all know Cameron had them make a bee-line for the tree just to show how "evil" they are.

There is a huge invisible Deux ex Machina along the entire lenght of the movie which, "just because", seems to prevent otherwise fully-functional characters from noticing things even a 12-year old would consider.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095An honourable soldier would have said:
"This is an entire fucking planet with other deposits.  We will continue to protect the workers from the hostile environment while they mine those resources.  We can continue to negotiate with the Na'vi here in the meantime.  We are not, however, in the business of butchering natives to make things easier for you."

See? Even you can come up with a better plot than Cameron.

I again point to the giant invisible Deux ex Machina.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095In fact, the narrative requires him to be almost dis-honourable to provide the contrast for Jake's actions.  Sipping coffee with a grin while your troops slaughter an unarmed village is a fairly standard description of 'not honourable'.

Look lets get one thing straight. The movie is a mess, the plot makes no sense, characters are cardboard figures and cliches, etc, etc.

When I say that consider Colonel Quaritch "honorable" It means I think that within the awful, biased, contrived mess that is "Avatar" he comes out as a character that abides to a personal code of honor, EVEN with the invisible, giant DeM preassuring him all along to make him the bad guy.

His code of honor might not be something you would agree with personaly, but the fact remains he has one.

He does have some odd, unexplained near-psychotic failings of character which crop up for no apparent reason, as does 99% of the human population of Pandora, aparently.
For that I can offer no excuse or explanation because there is none. It's up to Cameron to justify for his own sloppy writting and bad characterization, not me.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095I just wanted to touch on this briefly.  If Dali says (...)

You are comparing two different artistic mediums. Painting is not the same as the movies

Please tell me what the similarity is between interpreting the paintings of a master of Surrealism and a B-grade Sci-Fi movie with flashy effects.

In fact I would go further and say that your whole argument is flawed because the classification of "Avatar" as a work of "art" is higly debatable in the first place.

Quote from: StormBringer;354095One can certainly make the argument that an artist's intent was poorly executed.

In the case of Avatar you are right on the money.

Or maybe not, because "Avatar" is not the work of an artist. It is a corporate fabrication.

Quote from: StormBringer;354084I mean, technically, a serf really could just pack up and leave to find another...  well, another landlord that would have no better terms than the last one, really.  It's not like they had extensive data networks to keep track of them.

So, apparently, you also aren't quite aware of the definition of "Serf", then?

The idea that your life, or anyone's in western civilization today, is anywhere near as horrible as a Serf's was is just so profoundly absurd, I don't know what to make of it. That you can seriously compare the hardship of the American Middle Class to the hardship of being a powerless, optionless indentured serf bound to the land and living in absolute squalor without access to education, medicine, justice, or even the guarantee of enough food to eat, is just so bizarre that I don't know what else to say to you.

I mean why don't you go ahead and say that South African blacks under apartheid had it better than the American Middle Class too, while you're at it??!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian Absentia;354086Don't be daft, man.  The comparison that he was making related directly to the issue of capital-holders essentially holding their debtors ransom.  He's referring to banks -- specifically lending banks, creditors -- that have created an environment where they have attracted a vast sector of the middle-class to extend themselves with easy credit, are now squeezing their debtors in the fashion that medieval landholders squeezed their serfs, or Antebellum landholders squeezed their sharecroppers, or 19th century Robber Barons squeezed their frontier employees with "company stores".

You're the one demanding that an index of suffering displays a level of suffering equal to or exceeding that of medieval serfs.  The rest of us understand that it's the strategy that's at issue.

!i!

And the strategy fails, in any way, to make any meaningful points toward his original intention. The very best he can say is that the situation is somewhat similar but sucks much less. So what?

RPGPundit

Quote from: StormBringer;354094Certainly, they were legally and financially bound to the landholder.  What I meant was that they didn't have extensive identification and tracking mechanisms, so they could feasibly pack up and leave.  It was usually just a really, really bad idea.  The new landlord would likely become instantly suspicious and would hear about their 'defection' soon enough if they didn't move far away; a further complication to an already daunting task at the time.

Which also has a parallel.  I can pack up and leave ConglomCoSprockets, Inc. any time I want.  I would be giving up income and health benefits, of course, at least.  But trying to find further employment would subject me to other companies in the sprocket industry questioning my move, and calls to my former employer who would be unlikely to provide a glowing review had I just started not showing up for work.

Excellent analysis and explanation of my point, though.  Thanks for clarifying that.

I am honestly flabbergasted that you would be seriously, with a straight face, trying to claim that the latter is the same as the former.

Come on.. admit that you're putting us all on. No one could be that stupid.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;354109Come on.. admit that you're putting us all on. No one could be that stupid.

RPGPundit

You have no idea how this internet thing works, do you?

Quote from: RPGPundit;354109I am honestly flabbergasted that you would be seriously, with a straight face, trying to claim that the latter is the same as the former.

You should be, as it is quite clear that I am not doing so.  While it may help bolster your flagging arguments, it is pretty obvious I made no such correlation.

QuoteCome on.. admit that you're putting us all on. No one could be that stupid.

Well, you have been going on for several pages now, so I don't see how you can be surprised.

On the other hand, you must be wilfully missing the point by now.  Ian explained it very clearly.  No, serfs did not up and leave their landholders, but you failed to show that there was some divine force that absolutely prevented them from doing so.  Did it happen very often?  I doubt there are any recorded instances.  Were they physically able to?  Of course, no landholder could afford to station a guard or two outside of every hovel.  Was it practically a self-imposed death penalty?  No doubts there.  All that is really missing currently is a push to dismantle Unemployment Insurance.  Once that is gone, or seriously curtailed, it will be looking like 9th century Europe all over again.

But your insistence that it absolutely couldn't (or didn't happen) is bizarre, to say the least.  It's as though your version of history has serfs as mindless drones without so much as a single thought towards revolt until about 1500 (or much later in some places).

So, serfs had virtually no mobility, which is where current income inequality is headed in this country, as explained by Ian.  I also fail to believe you can be that stupid, so I have to attribute that to intentional obtuseness and your highly selective interpretation of history.

For example: "Serfdom, indeed, was an institution that reflected a fairly common practice whereby great landlords were assured that others worked to feed them and were held down, legally and economically, while doing so".  Which falls quite in line with many current working conditions for Americans, at least, in the middle class.  If the health care reform makes it mandatory to purchase insurance and doesn't provide subsidies, then it is de facto illegal to be unemployed, isn't it?  Because you will be fined by the government for not paying your tithe to the insurance barons; failure to pay that tithe is a penalty to your taxes, which carries a possibility of prison if those are not paid.  Even moreso for blue collar workers and those that are below them on the pay scale.

It's really not hard to see the parallels when you take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting.

What you are doing, sir, is engaging in the kind of asinine hyperbolic self-pitying baloney that is far too typical of the bourgeoisie.

I mean seriously, "wahh boo hoo, we're stuck in jobs that afford us the greatest average quality of life that any group of people have ever had in the history of man, because the alternative would be to inconvenience ourselves and not get to buy stuff! We're just like the serfs!!!"
That's you.

Could the people my ancestors used to own hear you now, they would want to set fire to you, and I would be of a mind not to stop them.

And no, nothing right now is "Looking like 9th century europe". Nothing is even looking like 19th century europe right now. To believe that they are is to have an utterly twisted conception of historical reality.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Edsan;354105Irrelevant, he was a mercenary and had made no agreements or even contacts with the Na'vi. Besides I was merely refering to his honor in dealing with fellow humans, not aliens.

Wait, you just said he was honourable, but now the evidence of his dis-honesty is irrelevant?

QuoteTo which Jake agreed readily until he decided to betray him for a piece of alien ass.

Or, you know, to prevent genocide.

QuoteAnother way to put it would be that he found a way to gather intel easier, faster and without risking the lives of his men.

That's pretty damn honorable for a military leader. Get the job done, take care of your own.

There is more to honour and leadership than that, actually.

QuoteAnd he DID get Jake a means to get his legs back as he had promissed, but the lure of having a giant blue dick was too strong, I guess.

No, he merely stated that he could.  We have no idea whether or not it was actually possible, or that he intended to do so.  Assuming the general could actually deliver on that promise, Jake took actions to prevent an entire group of people from getting wiped out in preference to walking again.  I will leave it to the reader to decide which is more honourable.

 

QuoteIndeed, one of the many plotholes and inconsistecies of the movie. We all know Cameron had them make a bee-line for the tree just to show how "evil" they are.

Or, it's a narrative device.  What reasons do you imagine for them not exploiting the other resources instead of that specific vein?

QuoteThere is a huge invisible Deux ex Machina along the entire lenght of the movie which, "just because", seems to prevent otherwise fully-functional characters from noticing things even a 12-year old would consider.

Such as?

 

QuoteSee? Even you can come up with a better plot than Cameron.

I again point to the giant invisible Deux ex Machina.

And why wasn't that plot explored, do you think?

 

QuoteLook lets get one thing straight. The movie is a mess, the plot makes no sense, characters are cardboard figures and cliches, etc, etc.

That is your claim.  You haven't listed any specific examples.

QuoteWhen I say that consider Colonel Quaritch "honorable" It means I think that within the awful, biased, contrived mess that is "Avatar" he comes out as a character that abides to a personal code of honor, EVEN with the invisible, giant DeM preassuring him all along to make him the bad guy.

Or, it could be that his personal code of honour was wrong.  Which might even be the point, there.

QuoteHis code of honor might not be something you would agree with personaly, but the fact remains he has one.

Meaningless.  All manner of atrocity has been committed by people with a strong code of honour.  Tom Cruise even starred in a movie which demonstrated the differences.

QuoteHe does have some odd, unexplained near-psychotic failings of character which crop up for no apparent reason...

Because he was near-psychotic.  The reason is right there in your description.

QuoteFor that I can offer no excuse or explanation because there is none. It's up to Cameron to justify for his own sloppy writting and bad characterization, not me.

It's not up to the director to cater to your tastes, unless you are willing to pony up over a billion dollars to pay him.

 

QuoteYou are comparing two different artistic mediums. Painting is not the same as the movies

I didn't say they were.  I said the interpretation of an artist's work is not automatically correct by the reviewer, especially when the artist states their intent in clear terms.

QuotePlease tell me what the similarity is between interpreting the paintings of a master of Surrealism and a B-grade Sci-Fi movie with flashy effects.

They both require critical thinking processes.  Other than that, I made no other correllation.

QuoteIn fact I would go further and say that your whole argument is flawed because the classification of "Avatar" as a work of "art" is higly debatable in the first place.

Only when you use 'art' in a qualitative sense.  Categorically, a movie is 'art', regardless of your opinion of it, and the producer of such is an 'artist'.

QuoteIn the case of Avatar you are right on the money.

Again, you have yet to demonstrate that.

QuoteOr maybe not, because "Avatar" is not the work of an artist. It is a corporate fabrication.

And again, this must be demonstrated.  I honestly have no idea what you would consider 'art' in this case.  The Sistine Chapel?  Commissioned.  Any composition of classical music?  Patronage.  Da Vinci's works?  Bought and paid for.  I guess that only leaves ancient cave paintings in France wholly free from the 'taint' of interference.

Yeah, sorry Edsan, this movie strikes me as many shades of wrong, but one thing that it doesn't strike me as is a movie made in Corporate Committee.  It is very much the vision of one artist. That its "art" doesn't mean it can't suck, though. Lots of art sucks.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;354124What you are doing, sir, is engaging in the kind of asinine hyperbolic self-pitying baloney that is far too typical of the bourgeoisie.

Your "rebuttal" entirely depends on your two well worn viewpoints:

1) Technology = Civilization
And by extension, quality of life and culture.

2) Academia/Uruguay
It's different out here in the real world, where most people don't live in the #1 third world nation (by your own admission).

For example, I don't have a maid.  Nor could I afford one in this country.  You play the part of the genteel landowner, showering the peasants with your generosity while making sure they are out of the house before the dinner guests arrive.  Relieved of the pressures that others endure at regular jobs, you have lulled yourself into believing you have a sense of aloof analysis, cool judgment, and calm assessment.  All of which is utterly distorted by your complete lack of contact with the very middle and lower class you claim is incredibly well off.

A direct contradiction to just about every objective analysis in this country.  But don't let the weight of statistics and specialists throw you with their pesky 'evidence' or 'facts'.  Much like your participation in this entire discussion, your confirmation bias is all that is needed to assure you have the truth of the matter.

Quote from: StormBringer;354136Your "rebuttal" entirely depends on your two well worn viewpoints:

1) Technology = Civilization
And by extension, quality of life and culture.

No. Not dying of Cholera at age 30 or watching 7 of your 14 children die before adolescence = Civilization, in this case.

Quote2) Academia/Uruguay
It's different out here in the real world, where most people don't live in the #1 third world nation (by your own admission).

Dude, are you serious? Listen to yourself. Uruguay is wonderful, but its still a third world nation. I probably see more REAL poverty on any given Tuesday than you have your entire fucking life. In fact, I'm sure of it since you don't seem to even understand what real poverty actually is.

QuoteFor example, I don't have a maid.  Nor could I afford one in this country.  You play the part of the genteel landowner, showering the peasants with your generosity while making sure they are out of the house before the dinner guests arrive.  Relieved of the pressures that others endure at regular jobs, you have lulled yourself into believing you have a sense of aloof analysis, cool judgment, and calm assessment.  All of which is utterly distorted by your complete lack of contact with the very middle and lower class you claim is incredibly well off.

What the fuck are you talking about?!
I mean fuck, Jong is going to be downright pleased as punch to hear that he's not middle class, apparently. And Sunboy is the very epitome of an genteel oligarch.
You fucking dumbass, I'm surrounded by people who work 40-hour weeks for $200-$600 per month and are unbelievably fucking grateful to have it. Because they too, unlike you, have seen what the alternatives are.

RPGPundit

everybody take a deep breath and think of bunnies.

Quote from: Aos;354147everybody take a deep breath and think of bunnies.

Oh, I see.  Thinking of humans isn't good enough for you.  Simple animals are somehow preferable to civilised society, eh?

Why do you hate Humanity, Aos?

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;354155Oh, I see.  Thinking of humans isn't good enough for you.  Simple animals are somehow preferable to civilised society, eh?

Why do you hate Humanity, Aos?

!i!

Gilman, Antonio
1981
The Development of Social Stratification in Bronze Age Europe
Current Anthropology, 22: 1-23

Gomi, Taro
1977 Everybody Poops

Marx, Karl
1848 The Communist Manifesto




That should get you started, check back with me later if you have any questions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;354143No. Not dying of Cholera at age 30 or watching 7 of your 14 children die before adolescence = Civilization, in this case.

So, the numerous cholera outbreaks in Europe and North America between 1830 and 1900 were because they hadn't gotten the benefits of civilization yet?  The American/Canadian infant mortality rate is below South Korea's because they need to provide us with the know-how to keep babies alive?

You realize that even with your self-selecting version of 'civilization', there are numerous Western countries still afflicted with those problems you cite as having been corrected?  And countless non-Western nations that suffer even more, despite your claims that Western colonialism efforts set them on the road to prosperity?

QuoteDude, are you serious? Listen to yourself. Uruguay is wonderful, but its still a third world nation. I probably see more REAL poverty on any given Tuesday than you have your entire fucking life. In fact, I'm sure of it since you don't seem to even understand what real poverty actually is.

Yes, hence, why I said it was the #1 third world nation, by your own admission.  Most of us live elsewhere, places where we can't afford to hire a maid for pesos a day by exploiting poor indigenous labour, because our cost of living is tied to a more expensive economy.  You are in a perfect position to incorrectly judge the middle class in America while you sit in a nation where $600 a month is considered a livable wage, and people feel lucky to get that much.  Guess what?  You can't make a living on that outside of the third world.  Surprising, I know, but it demonstrates how out-of-touch you are with the rest of the world.  Which carries over into your views of other topics, obviously.

As has been pointed out to you several times now, I made no mention of poverty.  You can keep bringing it up, but it will continue to be irrelevant.

QuoteWhat the fuck are you talking about?!

Wait for it...

QuoteI mean fuck, Jong is going to be downright pleased as punch to hear that he's not middle class, apparently. And Sunboy is the very epitome of an genteel oligarch.

What the fuck are you talking about?!

I have no idea how Jong and Sunboy managed to get dragged into this.  I was only referring to your situation.  As far as I can tell, Jong understands you don't have to win the pot at misery poker to make some parallels, and I don't recall ever carrying on a conversation with Sunboy, so I have no idea what his thoughts are.

QuoteYou fucking dumbass, I'm surrounded by people who work 40-hour weeks for $200-$600 per month and are unbelievably fucking grateful to have it. Because they too, unlike you, have seen what the alternatives are.

And, if you needed further demonstration as to the nature of many economies sliding back into feudalism, you need look no further than your own statements:
"I'm surrounded by people who work 40-hour weeks for $200-$600 per month and are unbelievably fucking grateful to have it."
"I probably see more REAL poverty on any given Tuesday than you have your entire fucking life."
In other words, if they get all uppity and want some basic rights, get the fuck out of my factory and starve in the streets.  Heaven forfend if you simply want to find a new job, or take some time to go to school to get a better job.

You have no concept of what a Western middle class life entails, and yet go to great lengths to defend it as the nirvana of existence.  Of course you think Western colonialism is fantastic, you are a direct beneficiary of it!  Other people have to struggle through the day worrying if this is the last week we are on the job and lose health benefits, homes, cars, and possibly families.  The reality for the Western middle class (and especially American middle class) worker is that their economic fate is no more in their own hands than it was a millennium ago.

David R showed your argument lacked any real cohesion very neatly; I am now seeing your statements starting to lack coherence.  As Ian clearly discerned my point about middle class workers, I can't take the blame for you digressing into some comparison between the current middle class and medieval serfs based on economic health.  Your other claims are only viable when ignoring vast swaths of non-Western history, and a good deal of Western history besides.

Which is the long way of saying that I have no idea where you are going with this discussion anymore.