Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat's...retarded, John. Exclusionary immigration policies are neither novel nor admirable. Building physical walls to compensate for inadequacies in policy and government is a sign of weakness.

Well, I think you missed his point.  America has the least restrictive immigration policies of any developed nation.  We're far more wiling to take those seeking better opportunities for

And it's hard for America to come up with an adequate policy.  Our economy simply couldn't absorb the people who want to come here as fast as they would show up if we just opened the doors wide.

But seriously, it's not like anyone in Europe can criticize us.  It's super easy to become an American citizen, really.  Just join the military and serve a tour of duty.  Instant citizenship.  And that's just the easiest way, there are plenty of ways that don't require risking one's life.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat's...retarded, John. Exclusionary immigration policies are neither novel nor admirable. Building physical walls to compensate for inadequacies in policy and government is a sign of weakness.

You missed my points.  My main point is that you can tell how desirable of a place a country is by whether people want to go there or leave there.  As for inadequacies in policies, my secondary point was that I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a country's immigration policies when the children of people born in a country still aren't considered citizens.  And there are quite a few countries like that out there.

Duly noted.  It was just such a mixed message, I figured it had to be some kind of trap.



!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDuly noted.  It was just such a mixed message, I figured it had to be some kind of trap.

For the record, I actually kinda liked the immigration plan that McCain supported that was shot down in Congress.

Quote from: BalbinusIt's not, it's a good country with much going for it, I like it, but it's not the greatest nation on Earth.  No nation is, the very concept of a greatest nation on Earth is childish and frankly the outlook of a political simpleton.

Word. The idea of one country being the greatest on everything is so fucking idiotic that is almost painful.

QuoteThose who claim it is frequently haven't gone anywhere else, frequently don't speak anyone else's language and frequently have just assumed everyone else deep down wants to be American.

We have lots of these in Spain, and they behave exactly like that. They go even down to the level of cities, being Seville the most obnoxious example.

QuoteJackalope, with all due respect, is a fucking idiot, with so little grasp of history, politics or the international situation that he's not worth responding to directly.

Wow, it takes a lot to make you post something like this.

An American created Dungeons & Dragons.

Jazz got started in America.

So did comic Books.


I'm not with Jackalope on the cheerloading bandwagon - but the Unisted States of America was the first country that was set up with the right of citizens to be as weird as thgey want to be as long as thery didn't interfere with another citizen's right to be as weird as they want to be.
(Yeah I know it said Pursuit of Happiness - but it works out to the same thing)


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI'm not with Jackalope on the cheerloading bandwagon - but the Unisted States of America was the first country that was set up with the right of citizens to be as weird as thgey want to be as long as thery didn't interfere with another citizen's right to be as weird as they want to be.

You misspelt "England" there.

I guess I should have known at least part of this thread would have gone this way, but I have to say I heartily agree with Balbinus. I think aspects of this nation are great, like any nation, and others, like nay nation, are not so great.

I'm not sure I'd like to live elsewhere at the moment, but eventually I'd like to travel again, and maybe even consider living somewhere else.

Quote from: KoltarAn American created Dungeons & Dragons.

Jazz got started in America.

So did comic Books.


I'm not with Jackalope on the cheerloading bandwagon - but the Unisted States of America was the first country that was set up with the right of citizens to be as weird as thgey want to be as long as thery didn't interfere with another citizen's right to be as weird as they want to be.
(Yeah I know it said Pursuit of Happiness - but it works out to the same thing)


- Ed C.

I don't think anyone here is denying great Koltar, just greatest.

Jazz is interesting, going on the admittely possibly flawed analysis of Ken Burn's Jazz series, jazz could only have happened in America.  Without the Jim Crow laws throwing the New Orleans Creole classical orchestras into poverty and unemployment jazz would not have happened, interesting stuff.

As an aside, quoting Tony Blair to a Brit is not a way to win arguments.  The key difference between Bush and Blair is that Bush included regime change among his pre-war stated goals for Iraq.  Blair expressly denied regime change was a motivant, for us the only grounds given for the war were grounds of national defence - 45 minutes from an attack on our soil.  Those claims were untrue, and it's pretty much proven here Blair knew they were untrue when he advanced them to the nation.  As such, the war here was illegal in a way that I think it wasn't in the States, not in any way denigrating or dismissing those who criticise the US government's conduct of the events leading to the war and the conduct of the occupation.

Blair pulled us into a foreign war to serve a foreign power's national interest, and deceived both the public and parliament in doing so.  His opinions are a matter of irrelevance, his achievements in office at best questionable.

Other than that, I don't debate religion with fundamentalists, I don't debate politics with nationalists, I don't debate science with creationists.  You can't reason folk out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.

Quote from: John MorrowYou missed my points.  My main point is that you can tell how desirable of a place a country is by whether people want to go there or leave there.  As for inadequacies in policies, my secondary point was that I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a country's immigration policies when the children of people born in a country still aren't considered citizens.  And there are quite a few countries like that out there.

I agree with all those points, and it certainly indicates the US is a desirable place for a lot of people (I don't think anyone rational would say otherwise) and some otherwise great countries have shitty immigration policies (the ones in the UK are very harsh, as are increasingly many of our domestic policies), but I think it's a sub-argument to the main one.

Is America great?  Sure, look how many people want in.  Is America greatest?  Lots of people want in to Germany and the UK too, plus I think there's more to why people want to go to some places and don't want to go to others than how great the destination is.  Some great countries are very homogeneous and so unappealing, some places are dangerous but provide opportunity, some are frankly hostile but provide opportunity, some are hostile and provide nothing much but are conveniently placed for migrants, it's a complex issue.

America is better than most, but I'd question whether it's better than Germany or the UK to pick two I know fairly well.  Then again, if you were German or British I'd question if those are better than the US, I actually don't think it's a clear cut question and I think to a large extent it depends on who the immigrant is and why they're going where they're going.

Quote from: Serious PaulI guess I should have known at least part of this thread would have gone this way, but I have to say I heartily agree with Balbinus. I think aspects of this nation are great, like any nation, and others, like nay nation, are not so great.

I'm not sure I'd like to live elsewhere at the moment, but eventually I'd like to travel again, and maybe even consider living somewhere else.

I'd love to travel again too - Europe has something the US doesn't - Centuries of history to look at. Depending on what side of my family I look at, I'm as little as 2nd generation and as much as 5th generation American. I'd love to see what I came from.

But I can't imagine living elsewhere. I've been spoiled by our freedoms. Something tells me I would have trouble bringing my grandfather's gun over to another country. Old Bess is a great 9 shot revolver. Only problem is it was cusom fit to his ham fist, and I got little girls hands. So I just keep it nice and pretty and unused until I can pass it to my kids.

Also, hip-hop was born in America.

And Blaxploitation flicks.

Quote from: walkerpAlso, hip-hop was born in America.

True, but it was perfected in France.

French hip-hop kicks US hip-hop's ass, as it takes all the US influences and adds some African and Arab rhythms on top.

IAM for the win baby!

That said, one of the finest lines in popular music does come from Express Yourself by the undoubtedly excellent NWA:

"I'm expressin' with my full capabilities,
And now I'm livin' in correctional facilities"

which is just brilliant.