Typically, I have, like many RPG'rs very little interest in the 'The War'.  If I chose a side it is by gaming preference, rather than ideology.  I like my games to behave a certain way, to be capable of certain things. Those things fall more on the traditional gaming side of 'The War'.

But every once in a while you stumble across something that makes all the rhetoric and bile seem... not so out of place.  Most recently I sumbled across this monster thread on Dumpshock, the amusement value died when one of the posters on the Trad side of the war was banned for 'personal attacks' against the 'forgite' poster.

To save you some reading, if you are lazy or otherwise unconcerned...

It starts with a simple complaint that 'Shadowrun is broken, here are some extreme examples'.  At first blush the examples do sound a bit broken. You have a guy taking out an APC with a light pistol, that just sounds wrong.

At first this guy is just someone pointing out holes in the rule set, but the moment someone suggest a GM uses his 'Authority' to reign in players that try to repeat such crazy stunts, or at least keep them more reasonable, he goes into a three page screaming rant (in 'dialogue') about how GM's don't have any authority and shouldn't treat their players like children.  This is when his 'Forge' credentials come to light as he goes on about GM'less play. I believe he even name checked Dogs and possibly Poison'd, but his preference is Wushu.

As more posters pile in to point out how his examples are flawed, he begins to stop answering their counter-points and insteads starts declaring everything they say to be  a 'logical fallacy', complete with links to wiki entries for each fallacy he names.

At this point our future banning victim begins to both surgically destroy his examples as 'breaking the rules' and his arguements as being emotionally based, rather than logically, and pointing out that such arguements can only be countered, logically, by other emotional arguements, such as calling the other guy a poopy head.

Our forgite (wannabe? I mean, he is namechecking Wushu....) never actually responds beyond quoteing said 'poopyhead' and pointing out the logical fallacy of namecalling, and continually stating his examples have never been challenged.

Around page 18-19 he admits that he doesn't even bother to read the guy's posts because he respects him too much !?!  Right after that the mods ban the surgeon for personal attacks.   Not sayin' he didn't earn that ban, but it does seem to fit the tinfoil hat crowd description of tactics by the Forgites in many ways.



: Notes: The banned poster is Franktrollman, no great favorite of mine (ironically named as he seems to be an excellent troll...), and it was a multi week suspension rather than an outright banning.  The Wushu proselytizer is Cain, and he seems to have been doing this for two years now, I certainly recall seeing his example before.

I bring this up here because AFAIK, Dumpshock doesn't have an 'off topic' place, and no great internet crusade against the Forge and their ilk. Thus this forum is 'the place' for idle discussion of such things.  Enjoy.

So just skipping to the end of the thread, it seems like the moderator made Franktrollman take off for his comments like:

"Your mouth is filled with too much talk, and not enough cock."

Out of curiousity, is this normal for Dumpshock?  i.e. If people make such attacks, they get temporarily blocked?  Or do you think there was some moderator bias against him?

Cain and Frank Trollman (real name) are two notorious Dumpshockers, both with big chips on their shoulders.

I never worked with Frank and have nothing personal against him, but he pissed off quite a few people while he worked as a Shadowrun freelancer (Street Magic and Augmentation). He also had the bad taste of going public about some development decisions he didn't agree with.

Cain is a diehard fan of previous editions who utterly hates SR4, but (perhaps not so oddly enough) keeps posting in Dumpshock's SR4 forum and just about every SR4 thread you can find over at RPGnet. I have no idea about his other gaming preferences, so I won't go in there.

Both of them are extremely stubborn, in case you haven't noticed. :haw:

John, Dumpshock's moderation level has gone through several stages. A few years ago the Mods closed a subforum called The Lounge (think Tangency Open Jr.), after too many stupid flame wars that had nothing to do with gaming. That's why there is no Off Topic area in DS.

After that, moderation was pretty much relaxed until SR4 was announced. That's when a small, but very rabid group of people began disrupting the forum, until the Mods took off their gloves. Some of them moved on to RPGnet, and some kept a slightly lower profile.

Last year, Dumpshock's owners appointed some additional Mods, as they were too busy to keep a constant eye on the forum. These new Mods are a bit more proactive than we were used to, but there hasn't been any RPGnet-style fuckup yet.

It's no RPGsite, but certainly no RPGnet either.

I can't believe I just waded through all of that about a game I don't even know or play... :raise:  

But I have to tell you - if I were so inclined, I think I'd be much more harsh than Mr. Trollman.  Though not because of the "GM's are the suxxorz!" bit (I know, an exaggeration) from Cain, but because of the complete lack of ability to respond in any way with anything that made any sense or refuted the counterpoint. I mean, I kept expecting a "Lalalalalala I can't hear you" post....

But Spike? I owe you one...and I don't mean in a good way....bastard

I've actually met Frank Trollman quite recently, and he seems to be a great guy. But internet might change people, I don't know...

Anyway the discussion seems to be pretty rough, but not that much about "the War" as Spike probably implies.

Quote from: AlnagI've actually met Frank Trollman quite recently, and he seems to be a great guy. But internet might change people, I don't know...

That's the riddle, isn't it? I still talk with Frank over IM, and he seems an OK guy, but there's quite a few other people I know who'd disagree with me. :confused:

Mr Kim:

At first, I was inclined to go 'way harsh, dude'... but then I remembered where I normally hang my hat, at which point I had to agree he had it coming to him.  Personally? I don't think I'd want to game with Mr. Trollman, he seems to view shadowrun vastly differently than I do (hackers should be able to brainhack anyone NOT hooked up to a computer, fer ex :raise: ), so: no bias.

James: I am here to serve.

There a lot of crazy Forgers out there, desperately in love with Uncle Ronny. I know of one floating around my game circle right now, yet another example of taking five sessions and 10,000 words of emails to organise the first session. What is it about indie games that you can't just sit down and play them, you have to agree on your Premise and Creative Agenda and generally waffle on quoting Uncle Ronny?