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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: GeekyBugle on October 16, 2021, 12:31:10 PM

Title: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 16, 2021, 12:31:10 PM
Lets start by destroying the hopes of all Dr. Who fans (me included)

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Russell T. Davies is a frothing madman. #RIPDrWho

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 16, 2021, 01:59:50 PM
...
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 16, 2021, 11:49:04 PM
...


It feels like shit.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: RandyB on October 17, 2021, 09:16:14 AM
...


It feels like shit.

It feels like freedom. I'm no longer chained to nostalgia. It is easier for me to look at new stuff in its own context, rather than constantly comparing to the old franchises.

Granted, that exposes even more how much a lot of the new stuff sucks...
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Zelen on October 17, 2021, 10:29:29 AM
I'm working on my own Star Trek-like setting & scripts since it's obvious that Abrams, Kurtzman et. al. will never acknowledge their works are incompatible with the spirit of ST or relinquish control of the franchise.

Feels good.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Wrath of God on October 21, 2021, 07:42:40 PM
Quote
Lets start by destroying the hopes of all Dr. Who fans (me included)

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Russell T. Davies is a frothing madman. #RIPDrWho

I'm not saying Russel T. Davies is not woke gay madman. But his seasons of DW were way better than Moffats and Chibnalls, and he was already raging gay leftist then. Just way better showrunner (Moffat best episodes are within Davies season spun narratives, Moffat unleashed turned into nonsensical farce - now one could say DW was always nonsensical farce. That's true. Trick is to make me believe during watching it's not.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 21, 2021, 08:22:12 PM
Quote
Lets start by destroying the hopes of all Dr. Who fans (me included)

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Russell T. Davies is a frothing madman. #RIPDrWho

I'm not saying Russel T. Davies is not woke gay madman. But his seasons of DW were way better than Moffats and Chibnalls, and he was already raging gay leftist then. Just way better showrunner (Moffat best episodes are within Davies season spun narratives, Moffat unleashed turned into nonsensical farce - now one could say DW was always nonsensical farce. That's true. Trick is to make me believe during watching it's not.

Even raging ideologues can have talent and put their ideals into the perspective of telling a good story.
Ones that don't tend to make the dreary anvilicious woke crap.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Zelen on October 21, 2021, 10:08:18 PM
Keep in mind that <CurrentYear> isn't <PriorYear>. Reality of living in <CurrentYear> is that many formerly-sane people are now wildly deranged.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Pat on October 21, 2021, 10:19:48 PM
Keep in mind that <CurrentYear> isn't <PriorYear>. Reality of living in <CurrentYear> is that many formerly-sane people are now wildly deranged.
Iterate at least a dozen times.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 25, 2021, 04:49:16 PM
I'm working on my own Star Trek-like setting & scripts since it's obvious that Abrams, Kurtzman et. al. will never acknowledge their works are incompatible with the spirit of ST or relinquish control of the franchise.

Feels good.
I'm doing something similar with franchises that were ruined by incompetent studios before the wokeness took over.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 27, 2021, 08:55:55 AM
I never hated Abrams, but it was painfully clear he was a fan -- and fans are not always the best people to put in charge of a franchise, whether it's film, game, or book.

It was as if you let a highly enthusiastic fanfic writer tackle things. Sure, they mean well, but you've got a better chance of getting My Immortal than you do The Last Ringbearer.

And that's with someone who LIKES the franchise. Get someone in there who's got ulterior motives (using the franchise to push their agenda) and to quote a certain annoying actor, "Oh my."
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2021, 11:52:34 AM
I never hated Abrams, but it was painfully clear he was a fan -- and fans are not always the best people to put in charge of a franchise, whether it's film, game, or book.

It was as if you let a highly enthusiastic fanfic writer tackle things. Sure, they mean well, but you've got a better chance of getting My Immortal than you do The Last Ringbearer.

And that's with someone who LIKES the franchise. Get someone in there who's got ulterior motives (using the franchise to push their agenda) and to quote a certain annoying actor, "Oh my."

Fan of what though. ST 09 was superficially Star Trek, in the way the sequels were superficially Star Wars. Lots of people running around and things whizzing around and emotional gloss over dumb storytelling.

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 27, 2021, 01:13:34 PM
I never hated Abrams, but it was painfully clear he was a fan -- and fans are not always the best people to put in charge of a franchise, whether it's film, game, or book.

It was as if you let a highly enthusiastic fanfic writer tackle things. Sure, they mean well, but you've got a better chance of getting My Immortal than you do The Last Ringbearer.

And that's with someone who LIKES the franchise. Get someone in there who's got ulterior motives (using the franchise to push their agenda) and to quote a certain annoying actor, "Oh my."

Fan of what though. ST 09 was superficially Star Trek, in the way the sequels were superficially Star Wars. Lots of people running around and things whizzing around and emotional gloss over dumb storytelling.
That's kind of the point. Abrams may love ST and SW, but he's not competent enough to kindle the same spark that past movies and TV showings did. Just like most fanfic writers.

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2021, 02:09:13 PM
Fan of what though. ST 09 was superficially Star Trek, in the way the sequels were superficially Star Wars. Lots of people running around and things whizzing around and emotional gloss over dumb storytelling.

That's kind of the point. Abrams may love ST and SW, but he's not competent enough to kindle the same spark that past movies and TV showings did. Just like most fanfic writers.

I haven't liked pretty much any of Abrams' work - though Regarding Henry and Super 8 were ok. I for sure hated his Star Trek reboot and his Star Wars sequels.

However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

The idea of a franchise that proceeds without being messed up seems mostly like a pipe dream to me. I prefer to see franchises as having upturns and downturns, rather than dying and resurrecting. Doctor Who has had lots of upturns and downturns through its history over the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and on.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2021, 02:38:47 PM
Fan of what though. ST 09 was superficially Star Trek, in the way the sequels were superficially Star Wars. Lots of people running around and things whizzing around and emotional gloss over dumb storytelling.

That's kind of the point. Abrams may love ST and SW, but he's not competent enough to kindle the same spark that past movies and TV showings did. Just like most fanfic writers.

I haven't liked pretty much any of Abrams' work - though Regarding Henry and Super 8 were ok. I for sure hated his Star Trek reboot and his Star Wars sequels.

However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

The idea of a franchise that proceeds without being messed up seems mostly like a pipe dream to me. I prefer to see franchises as having upturns and downturns, rather than dying and resurrecting. Doctor Who has had lots of upturns and downturns through its history over the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and on.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 27, 2021, 02:59:21 PM
To this day, I wonder if it was his idea, or some moron sold him on it, to have Greedo shoot first from pointblank range and miss.

From a technical standpoint it was a hilariously bad video edit -- Solo seems to twitch aside like a bad stop-motion effect. From a storytelling perspective it was stupid. The scene, originally, established that Han Solo was a rogue who wasn't afraid to play dirty, especially if someone had the drop on him. Greedo was a serious threat, and Solo dispatched him by talking long enough to snake his blaster out from under the table and drill him before he got a shot off. Awesome.

But the 'special edition' edit screwed it all up by making Solo shoot back in self defense... which wouldn't have been so bad except that there was no way in the galaxy Greedo could miss unless he was legally blind. In which case Solo wasn't in any danger at all!

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Trond on October 27, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

To be fair, Yoda seemed a bit nuts at his first appearance :D
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2021, 06:52:45 PM
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

Oh, I agree. I guess I find those aspects more of a dissapointment than provoking hatred, myself.

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2021, 06:56:14 PM
To this day, I wonder if it was his idea, or some moron sold him on it, to have Greedo shoot first from pointblank range and miss.

From a technical standpoint it was a hilariously bad video edit -- Solo seems to twitch aside like a bad stop-motion effect. From a storytelling perspective it was stupid. The scene, originally, established that Han Solo was a rogue who wasn't afraid to play dirty, especially if someone had the drop on him. Greedo was a serious threat, and Solo dispatched him by talking long enough to snake his blaster out from under the table and drill him before he got a shot off. Awesome.

But the 'special edition' edit screwed it all up by making Solo shoot back in self defense... which wouldn't have been so bad except that there was no way in the galaxy Greedo could miss unless he was legally blind. In which case Solo wasn't in any danger at all!

We all got it. Lucas didn't. And so now the scene looks stupid, and defeats the idea that Han was defending himself.

The Greedo edit especially leads me to believe that he didn't really understand the resonance of his own creation.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 27, 2021, 07:32:09 PM
We all got it. Lucas didn't. And so now the scene looks stupid, and defeats the idea that Han was defending himself.

The change with Greedo is extra frustrating because Lucas has no problem with Princess Leia murdering two people in RotJ after the despicable act of false surrendering. It's something Lucas has Indiana Jones do as well IIRC. [Which also brings up another trope I despise which is when the bad guys have the good guys in their sights but suddenly decide to capture them instead of kill them, even though they were trying to kill them 30 seconds previously. The "hero", of course, responds to this act of mercy by killing all the people that saved his life. We see this happen again in The Mandalorean.]
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2021, 08:43:29 PM
Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

Oh, I agree. I guess I find those aspects more of a dissapointment than provoking hatred, myself.

I feel that this more than anything ended my interest in the franchise -- because what the Jedi are about ​cuts through all of the Star Wars lore. It changes the whole ethos of the universe, even in stories or settings far removed from the prequels. It has a far wider effect than anything about what happens to particular characters or at particular points in history - like what happens to Luke and Leia, say.

I might be disappointed in how they handle particular characters or the plot in some particular film, but fundamentally changing the lore like that is a bigger deal to me.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 28, 2021, 07:59:24 AM
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 12:26:26 PM
Quote
The change with Greedo is extra frustrating because Lucas has no problem with Princess Leia murdering two people in RotJ after the despicable act of false surrendering. It's something Lucas has Indiana Jones do as well IIRC. [Which also brings up another trope I despise which is when the bad guys have the good guys in their sights but suddenly decide to capture them instead of kill them, even though they were trying to kill them 30 seconds previously. The "hero", of course, responds to this act of mercy by killing all the people that saved his life. We see this happen again in The Mandalorean.]

I must say I see absolutely no problem. When henchmen of tyrant in Palpatine lieu, are deciding to imprison me, after some botched gunfight rather than execute on spot, it's not mercy. It's purpose. Bad purpose. Better risk own life to kill them, than stay in their power.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Lurkndog on October 29, 2021, 10:22:38 AM
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 07:55:42 AM
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Don't take my word for it.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 01, 2021, 09:19:41 AM
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Don't take my word for it.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress

And Magnificent Seven is a retelling of Seven Samurai. Way more of a copy than Star Wars and Hidden Fortress.
I don't understand why that necessarily means Lucas isn't a good storyteller.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 11:41:00 AM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 01, 2021, 12:32:36 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 01:06:42 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Keep in mind he was writing a story for an RTS.

That being said, the story could've definitely used some fine tuning for Starcraft 2.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Pat on November 01, 2021, 03:46:37 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.
Happens with actors, too. I find it really strange that the quality of some actor's ability to act seems to be closely tied to the director, but I suppose it makes sense. Twain's "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead" seems universal across media.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 01, 2021, 06:23:25 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Keep in mind he was writing a story for an RTS.

That being said, the story could've definitely used some fine tuning for Starcraft 2.
There are plenty of RTS where the writers don’t sabotage themselves by bulldozing their own setting multiple times over. Command & Conquer, Star Trek Armada, Supreme Commander, etc. The writer of SC, Chris Metzen, is mentioned by a co-worker in a book (World of Warcraft Diary) as apparently having severe ADHD and memory problems. No shit.

StarCraft 1 was a mess of writer incompetence and studio inference. They killed all the potential villains, and civilizations, immediately after their introductions. The expansion had to introduce multiple new villains thru lazy retcons because the author shot himself in the foot multiple times.

The whole thing needed rebooting and a franchise bible to be written to keep it on track, not a sequel. That’s like saying that Twilight needed a sequel.

This isn’t rocket science. You have humans, space elves, and bugs, and they’re fighting each other for control of the galaxy because of politics, greed, and philosophy. That’s so effing simple and somehow Blizzard managed to fuck it up multiple times.

I’m not asking for a good plot. I know any plot is just an excuse to blow shit up. But I expect the writer to at least understand what genre he’s written for. Chris Metzen didn’t write an RTS plot, he wrote multiple bad soap operas with plot holes that you could drive a dozen trucks thru side by side. I have watched children’s shows with better writing.

But I could ignore all that if it wasn’t for the fandom being full of fucking morons who think this fanfiction-tier shit is actually good, because everybody with taste has long since left.

And the Starship Troopers game is based on the shitty Sony movies. So for fans of military scifi the video game scene sucks ass.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 01, 2021, 07:55:11 PM
I'm doing something similar with franchises that were ruined by incompetent studios before the wokeness took over.
It's entirely possible to not do a franchise, and not be woke at all, and yet still be truly awful. I present to you:

Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 08:43:57 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Keep in mind he was writing a story for an RTS.

That being said, the story could've definitely used some fine tuning for Starcraft 2.
There are plenty of RTS where the writers don’t sabotage themselves by bulldozing their own setting multiple times over. Command & Conquer, Star Trek Armada, Supreme Commander, etc. The writer of SC, Chris Metzen, is mentioned by a co-worker in a book (World of Warcraft Diary) as apparently having severe ADHD and memory problems. No shit.

StarCraft 1 was a mess of writer incompetence and studio inference. They killed all the potential villains, and civilizations, immediately after their introductions. The expansion had to introduce multiple new villains thru lazy retcons because the author shot himself in the foot multiple times.

The whole thing needed rebooting and a franchise bible to be written to keep it on track, not a sequel. That’s like saying that Twilight needed a sequel.

This isn’t rocket science. You have humans, space elves, and bugs, and they’re fighting each other for control of the galaxy because of politics, greed, and philosophy. That’s so effing simple and somehow Blizzard managed to fuck it up multiple times.

I’m not asking for a good plot. I know any plot is just an excuse to blow shit up. But I expect the writer to at least understand what genre he’s written for. Chris Metzen didn’t write an RTS plot, he wrote multiple bad soap operas with plot holes that you could drive a dozen trucks thru side by side. I have watched children’s shows with better writing.

But I could ignore all that if it wasn’t for the fandom being full of fucking morons who think this fanfiction-tier shit is actually good, because everybody with taste has long since left.

And the Starship Troopers game is based on the shitty Sony movies. So for fans of military scifi the video game scene sucks ass.
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 01, 2021, 09:04:01 PM
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Keep in mind he was writing a story for an RTS.

That being said, the story could've definitely used some fine tuning for Starcraft 2.
There are plenty of RTS where the writers don’t sabotage themselves by bulldozing their own setting multiple times over. Command & Conquer, Star Trek Armada, Supreme Commander, etc. The writer of SC, Chris Metzen, is mentioned by a co-worker in a book (World of Warcraft Diary) as apparently having severe ADHD and memory problems. No shit.

StarCraft 1 was a mess of writer incompetence and studio inference. They killed all the potential villains, and civilizations, immediately after their introductions. The expansion had to introduce multiple new villains thru lazy retcons because the author shot himself in the foot multiple times.

The whole thing needed rebooting and a franchise bible to be written to keep it on track, not a sequel. That’s like saying that Twilight needed a sequel.

This isn’t rocket science. You have humans, space elves, and bugs, and they’re fighting each other for control of the galaxy because of politics, greed, and philosophy. That’s so effing simple and somehow Blizzard managed to fuck it up multiple times.

I’m not asking for a good plot. I know any plot is just an excuse to blow shit up. But I expect the writer to at least understand what genre he’s written for. Chris Metzen didn’t write an RTS plot, he wrote multiple bad soap operas with plot holes that you could drive a dozen trucks thru side by side. I have watched children’s shows with better writing.

But I could ignore all that if it wasn’t for the fandom being full of fucking morons who think this fanfiction-tier shit is actually good, because everybody with taste has long since left.

And the Starship Troopers game is based on the shitty Sony movies. So for fans of military scifi the video game scene sucks ass.
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.

Yep Blizzard has always been shit storytellers. That ship sailed decades ago, sank, and is full of Murlocs now.

But in his defense, we are bitching about 20(ish) year old Star Wars movies too.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 02, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.
Sorry. I used to love StarCraft as a kid because kids are stupid and can't critically evaluate fiction. As an adult, I came back to StarCraft, started evaluating it critically and grew disgusted and frustrated with the world building and writing. When I tried talking about this on the fan forums, around the time that SC2 LotV was in full swing, I got deeply burned by flame wars. I'm still healing.

I got re-invested in games like Five Nations (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1565670/Five_Nations/), which is basically StarCraft except all the units are spacecraft and the plot is more political and military-focused. It's a very blatant pastiche of the scifi genre and full of plot points identical to other scifi like Star Trek, Babylon Five, StarGate SG-1, and the new Lost in Space, but the stories it has genuinely feel like they fit the military scifi RTS format. It's not a superhero soap opera shoehorned into the wrong genre.

Right now I'm looking forward to Immortal: Gates of Pyre, which seems like it will have a much better handling of politics and conflicts than the Blizzard games did. That's not saying much since Blizzard writing is bottom of the barrel despite their financial successes, but still. It has civilizations with ideologies, and it intends to let you play as Lovecraftian aliens trying to invade the planets.

Yep Blizzard has always been shit storytellers. That ship sailed decades ago, sank, and is full of Murlocs now.

But in his defense, we are bitching about 20(ish) year old Star Wars movies too.
At least SW has a community willing to critically evaluate the writing. There must be countless essays trying to understand the politics of the Empire even though it was never intended to be a well constructed fictional state.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 02, 2021, 04:01:29 PM
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.
Sorry. I used to love StarCraft as a kid because kids are stupid and can't critically evaluate fiction. As an adult, I came back to StarCraft, started evaluating it critically

That was your first mistake.

Quote
and grew disgusted and frustrated with the world building and writing. When I tried talking about this on the fan forums, around the time that SC2 LotV was in full swing, I got deeply burned by flame wars. I'm still healing.

And your second.

I say this not to mock, but to actually put it into perspective. Sometimes you outgrow the things you loved as a kid. You can either turn off your adult brain and enjoy them as a kid-at-heart again, or move on. I have my nerdy nitpicks that get me going on message forums, but they'll never be resolved.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 02, 2021, 09:24:14 PM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 02, 2021, 10:04:22 PM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.

A lot of 80's cartoons are wince. I loved Robotech, but I can't watch it nowadays. The inane, repeating dialog just drives me insane now.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: DocJones on November 02, 2021, 10:27:37 PM
I'm doing something similar with franchises that were ruined by incompetent studios before the wokeness took over.
It's entirely possible to not do a franchise, and not be woke at all, and yet still be truly awful. I present to you:


That's the most retarded story concept since "Space 1999"
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2021, 01:08:57 AM
That's the most retarded story concept since "Space 1999"

I had an Eagle One toy. I never watched the show. I only found out the premise many years later, and went, "Man wut?"

Your post has me watching the series on youtube. :D I love Gerry Anderson's stuff, despite the crazy idea of the moon getting knocked out of orbit and carrying them to Space Adventures.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 03, 2021, 06:50:12 AM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.

A lot of 80's cartoons are wince. I loved Robotech, but I can't watch it nowadays. The inane, repeating dialog just drives me insane now.
Are we talking the original Macross, or the Robotech adaptation crapped out by Harmony Gold?
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2021, 07:58:41 AM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.

A lot of 80's cartoons are wince. I loved Robotech, but I can't watch it nowadays. The inane, repeating dialog just drives me insane now.
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.
Sorry. I used to love StarCraft as a kid because kids are stupid and can't critically evaluate fiction. As an adult, I came back to StarCraft, started evaluating it critically

That was your first mistake.

Quote
and grew disgusted and frustrated with the world building and writing. When I tried talking about this on the fan forums, around the time that SC2 LotV was in full swing, I got deeply burned by flame wars. I'm still healing.

And your second.

I say this not to mock, but to actually put it into perspective. Sometimes you outgrow the things you loved as a kid. You can either turn off your adult brain and enjoy them as a kid-at-heart again, or move on. I have my nerdy nitpicks that get me going on message forums, but they'll never be resolved.
Different stories age differently. I don’t feel the same way about other RTS franchises like Command & Conquer. There are many genuine children’s shows that I can watch and turn my brain off with. Or appreciate without turning my brain off.

And as I said, my problem is more that the fans who didn’t leave in disgust are idiots with shit taste who take criticism of the bad writing as a personal attack. Fuck those guys.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 03, 2021, 09:15:06 AM
Different stories age differently. I don’t feel the same way about other RTS franchises like Command & Conquer. There are many genuine children’s shows that I can watch and turn my brain off with. Or appreciate without turning my brain off.

And as I said, my problem is more that the fans who didn’t leave in disgust are idiots with shit taste who take criticism of the bad writing as a personal attack. Fuck those guys.
I think I'm in the middle. If I play SC I'm barely paying attention to the story, beyond 'who am I gonna swarm with my top-tier units next?'.

Hell, I have more fun making up my own stories in my head for games like Stellaris.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2021, 12:29:18 PM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.

A lot of 80's cartoons are wince. I loved Robotech, but I can't watch it nowadays. The inane, repeating dialog just drives me insane now.
Are we talking the original Macross, or the Robotech adaptation crapped out by Harmony Gold?

Is there a fan out there that hasn't been letured on the difference? :) Yes, I meant Robotech and not Macross.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2021, 11:03:27 PM
I do feel for BCT though. Trying to watch 80's Transformers cartoons nowadays is kind of wince-worthy, except for a few notable ones.

A lot of 80's cartoons are wince. I loved Robotech, but I can't watch it nowadays. The inane, repeating dialog just drives me insane now.
Dude, do you like have a grudge or something? Did Starcraft steal your girlfriend?

Seriously, the last time I saw this much salt over a video game was this one fellow who was absolutely assblasted about Darkest Dungeon and couldn't shut the fuck up for five minutes about how it was a walking simulator.
Sorry. I used to love StarCraft as a kid because kids are stupid and can't critically evaluate fiction. As an adult, I came back to StarCraft, started evaluating it critically

That was your first mistake.

Quote
and grew disgusted and frustrated with the world building and writing. When I tried talking about this on the fan forums, around the time that SC2 LotV was in full swing, I got deeply burned by flame wars. I'm still healing.

And your second.

I say this not to mock, but to actually put it into perspective. Sometimes you outgrow the things you loved as a kid. You can either turn off your adult brain and enjoy them as a kid-at-heart again, or move on. I have my nerdy nitpicks that get me going on message forums, but they'll never be resolved.
Different stories age differently. I don’t feel the same way about other RTS franchises like Command & Conquer. There are many genuine children’s shows that I can watch and turn my brain off with. Or appreciate without turning my brain off.

And as I said, my problem is more that the fans who didn’t leave in disgust are idiots with shit taste who take criticism of the bad writing as a personal attack. Fuck those guys.

... am I going to point out the hypocracy in calling people idiots with shit taste because they didn't agree with you, guilty of taking criticism as a personal attack?
I guess I just did.
Title: Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
Post by: Omega on November 05, 2021, 06:08:41 AM
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Don't take my word for it.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress

And Magnificent Seven is a retelling of Seven Samurai. Way more of a copy than Star Wars and Hidden Fortress.
I don't understand why that necessarily means Lucas isn't a good storyteller.

Lets see, what all did Lucas borrow from and then trademark and copyright?

Hidden Fortress is one. But they both share some aspects with Flash Gordon which Lucas wanted to make into a movie. Chewbacca is a very obvious Thun the Lion Man.
Theres a music cue and especially the title crawl from the Buck Rogers serial.
The Death Star run is inspired by a movie called Dam Busters.
R2 and 3PO share some elements with Laurel & Hardy and other comedic teams as does the two in Hidden Fortress. Nothing new there and both are probably drawing from classical sources in film or stage even.

And so on. I have seen Hidden Fortress and yeah theres some obvious inspiration there. But Star Wars borrows from alot of different things. Alot.