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Author Topic: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.  (Read 1751 times)

Ghostmaker

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2021, 02:59:21 PM »
To this day, I wonder if it was his idea, or some moron sold him on it, to have Greedo shoot first from pointblank range and miss.

From a technical standpoint it was a hilariously bad video edit -- Solo seems to twitch aside like a bad stop-motion effect. From a storytelling perspective it was stupid. The scene, originally, established that Han Solo was a rogue who wasn't afraid to play dirty, especially if someone had the drop on him. Greedo was a serious threat, and Solo dispatched him by talking long enough to snake his blaster out from under the table and drill him before he got a shot off. Awesome.

But the 'special edition' edit screwed it all up by making Solo shoot back in self defense... which wouldn't have been so bad except that there was no way in the galaxy Greedo could miss unless he was legally blind. In which case Solo wasn't in any danger at all!


jhkim

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2021, 03:48:24 PM »
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

Trond

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2021, 05:57:06 PM »
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

To be fair, Yoda seemed a bit nuts at his first appearance :D

Ratman_tf

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2021, 06:52:45 PM »
However, even someone who is competent is *still* likely to screw up a franchise. Many of the franchises I like were messed up by their own creators -- like how George Lucas messed up Star Wars with the prequels, or how Peter Jackson messed up the Tolkien films with the Hobbit films, or how Spielberg messed up Indiana Jones with Crystal Skull.

Lucas' greatest mistake was the changes he made to the films in the Special Editions. I can ignore the sequels, and think the prequels are flawed but still in the spirit of Star Wars, but I can never watch the originals again, except as poor quality transfers on some box set's extras disk.

Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

Oh, I agree. I guess I find those aspects more of a dissapointment than provoking hatred, myself.

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Ratman_tf

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2021, 06:56:14 PM »
To this day, I wonder if it was his idea, or some moron sold him on it, to have Greedo shoot first from pointblank range and miss.

From a technical standpoint it was a hilariously bad video edit -- Solo seems to twitch aside like a bad stop-motion effect. From a storytelling perspective it was stupid. The scene, originally, established that Han Solo was a rogue who wasn't afraid to play dirty, especially if someone had the drop on him. Greedo was a serious threat, and Solo dispatched him by talking long enough to snake his blaster out from under the table and drill him before he got a shot off. Awesome.

But the 'special edition' edit screwed it all up by making Solo shoot back in self defense... which wouldn't have been so bad except that there was no way in the galaxy Greedo could miss unless he was legally blind. In which case Solo wasn't in any danger at all!

We all got it. Lucas didn't. And so now the scene looks stupid, and defeats the idea that Han was defending himself.

The Greedo edit especially leads me to believe that he didn't really understand the resonance of his own creation.
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hedgehobbit

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2021, 07:32:09 PM »
We all got it. Lucas didn't. And so now the scene looks stupid, and defeats the idea that Han was defending himself.

The change with Greedo is extra frustrating because Lucas has no problem with Princess Leia murdering two people in RotJ after the despicable act of false surrendering. It's something Lucas has Indiana Jones do as well IIRC. [Which also brings up another trope I despise which is when the bad guys have the good guys in their sights but suddenly decide to capture them instead of kill them, even though they were trying to kill them 30 seconds previously. The "hero", of course, responds to this act of mercy by killing all the people that saved his life. We see this happen again in The Mandalorean.]
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 08:35:03 AM by hedgehobbit »

jhkim

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2021, 08:43:29 PM »
Yeah, revising the originals was terrible on many levels. I think this literally ruined Star Wars far more than the prequels or sequels, because it is actually messing up the originals.

Still, I also hate the prequels particularly for what they did to the Jedi with midi-chlorians and bouncing killer Yoda and other nonsense. In the originals, there is a sense of the Jedi as having spiritual depth. The whole point of Yoda in ESB was the surprise reveal that he was *not* a death-dealing warrior, but instead a tiny creature who lived in a simple hut. That being a Jedi was about more than charging about killing shit.

Oh, I agree. I guess I find those aspects more of a dissapointment than provoking hatred, myself.

I feel that this more than anything ended my interest in the franchise -- because what the Jedi are about ​cuts through all of the Star Wars lore. It changes the whole ethos of the universe, even in stories or settings far removed from the prequels. It has a far wider effect than anything about what happens to particular characters or at particular points in history - like what happens to Luke and Leia, say.

I might be disappointed in how they handle particular characters or the plot in some particular film, but fundamentally changing the lore like that is a bigger deal to me.

Ghostmaker

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2021, 07:59:24 AM »
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Wrath of God

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2021, 12:26:26 PM »
Quote
The change with Greedo is extra frustrating because Lucas has no problem with Princess Leia murdering two people in RotJ after the despicable act of false surrendering. It's something Lucas has Indiana Jones do as well IIRC. [Which also brings up another trope I despise which is when the bad guys have the good guys in their sights but suddenly decide to capture them instead of kill them, even though they were trying to kill them 30 seconds previously. The "hero", of course, responds to this act of mercy by killing all the people that saved his life. We see this happen again in The Mandalorean.]

I must say I see absolutely no problem. When henchmen of tyrant in Palpatine lieu, are deciding to imprison me, after some botched gunfight rather than execute on spot, it's not mercy. It's purpose. Bad purpose. Better risk own life to kill them, than stay in their power.
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Lurkndog

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2021, 10:22:38 AM »
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.

Ghostmaker

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2021, 07:55:42 AM »
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Don't take my word for it.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress


Ratman_tf

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2021, 09:19:41 AM »
If Lucas had stuck to tidying up the SFX in the original trilogy, and slotted the cut scenes into a 'deleted scenes' section in the DVD, there would've been no problems.

But Lucas really ISN'T a great filmmaker. He's a good one, but at the end of the day, remember that A New Hope is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

Especially the part at the end of Hidden Fortress where Toshiro Mifune goes on a bombing mission in World War 2.</sarc>

You can see the influences of Hidden Fortress on parts of Star Wars, but it is not a carbon copy. If Toshiro Mifune is Obi-Wan, then he basically wins the lightsaber battle on the Death Star, and the movie ends right there.

You can say the two peasants are R2D2 and C3PO, but there are no equivalent characters for Luke, Han, Chewie, or Darth Vader. There is no equivalent for The Force. Hidden Fortress is a much simpler story told on a much smaller scale.
Don't take my word for it.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-hidden-fortress

And Magnificent Seven is a retelling of Seven Samurai. Way more of a copy than Star Wars and Hidden Fortress.
I don't understand why that necessarily means Lucas isn't a good storyteller.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2021, 11:41:00 AM »
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2021, 12:32:36 PM »
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.

Ghostmaker

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Re: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here," Your Beloved franchise is dead.
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2021, 01:06:42 PM »
Lucas has big ideas, but he needs to be... channeled. This is typically accomplished with good editing (thanks Marcia) and directors.

Return of the Jedi showcases a lot of the problems Lucas was running into with telling his story. He desperately needed a big reveal on par with Empire Strikes Back, but making Luke and Leia siblings was... not the way I would've done it (it also makes some of the scenes in ESB and even ANH a lot weirder). Meanwhile, Lucas's foray into merchandising really, REALLY shows in ROTJ; as one person put it, consider that the word 'ewok' is never spoken in the film, yet everyone knows what an ewok is.

I will state in defense that Lucas had tapped an incredible gold mine and he'd have been an idiot not to mine it.

The tone of ROTJ tends to wildly skew back and forth. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but with less control.

So yeah, Lucas hit the motherlode, but that doesn't make him Spielberg.
I've noticed this with a number of other creators too. Incredibly creative, but in desperate need of editors to reign them in.

The plot of the StarCraft games suffers a similar, albeit perhaps opposite, problem: it sets itself up as essentially Warhammer 40,000 lite, but rather than exploring the military, political, and cultural aspects that would appeal to fans of military scifi it immediately deteriorates into a badly written soap opera where there's one hero of the universe who only fights the villains because of either personal vendetta or because the plot tells him to. Tons of backstory and plot hooks gets set up and then immediately bulldozed because the writer lost interest. Not to mention the many retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc.

It's arguably the worst military scifi ever written. No surprise it was the first the author ever wrote. Which is par the course for video game writing, but still. The author was clearly quite creative and the potential for a good story was there.
Keep in mind he was writing a story for an RTS.

That being said, the story could've definitely used some fine tuning for Starcraft 2.