Quote from: Jackalope;278570Sad fact, but many Americans are nominally racist. You should know, since you're practically in the Klan.   While many kids will unthinkingly identify with another bland white kid, present them an Asian kid to identify with and suddenly you're challenging your audience.  You're asking them to identify with someone different than them.  Many of them are up to the task, some are not.

One doesn't risk millions on the proposition that people will rise to your idealistic expectations.  The people in Hollywood that make money are the ones who (rightly, I think) assume the average American movie-goer is a small-minded idiot.

Well, here's the thing.  There are certainly some set of the movie-going audience with varying degrees of racist bias -- usually subconscious, I expect.  There is also some set of the Hollywood producer crowd with varying degrees of racist bias.  We could go back and forth about how much each of these is.  

Your position seems to be that the producers are generally enlightened types who have no racist bias of their own, but simply are aware of the racist bias in their teenage audiences.  From what I know, I would tend to say the opposite -- that Hollywood studio producers are assholes in general, and more specifically tend to be old white guys with lots of racist assumptions, much moreso than the modern teenager.  Racism is not exactly going away, but it is getting better compared to the fifties and sixties when the older generation grew up.  My best friend from high school is a film writer/director by trade, and hearing about producers through him has deepened rather than dispelled many stereotypes of Hollywood.  

This is not to say that audiences don't have racist bias, but I think the effect of whitewashing comes more from the bias of producers than from audiences.

Quote from: jhkim;278609Your position seems to be that the producers are generally enlightened types who have no racist bias of their own, but simply are aware of the racist bias in their teenage audiences.

My position is that producers are generally aware of the racist bias in their audiences in general, and motivated by profit not by social consciousness.

I also think audiences are smarter than Hollywood gives them credit for, though considering the MASSIVE evidence to the contrary, I would in honesty have to admit this belief is mostly a delusion.

I have no idea where you get the idea I think Hollywood producers are enlightened types who have no racist bias of their own.  I would really love for you to quote whatever it is I said that gave you that impression, but I rather strongly suspect that you simply ascribed the position to me because it's obviously ridiculous and thus easy to knock down.

I could give two shits about the Avatar movie, but the suggestion of a black Dr. Who piques my interest.

Only if the last name was Henry and the first was Lenny.

(Fuck it'd be 10 times better than the guy they have tapped to replace Tennant.)

Quote from: Jackalope;278612I have no idea where you get the idea I think Hollywood producers are enlightened types who have no racist bias of their own.  I would really love for you to quote whatever it is I said that gave you that impression, but I rather strongly suspect that you simply ascribed the position to me because it's obviously ridiculous and thus easy to knock down.

I will reconstruct.  I complained about the phenomenon both of us observe: that casting is whitewashed in general, and in particular there are almost no Asian-American leads in Hollywood movies.  

In response, you implied that I had an idiotic desire for political correctness -- and that the sole reason for this whitewashing is because it is an objective fact that movies with Asian-American leads cannot be sold to teenage audiences.   i.e. The producers' motivation for the whitewashing has nothing to do with their own bias, but only that of their audience.  

If there was some racist bias among producers, then logically that would have some influence on the degree their decisions.  That is, they would whitewash the casting of films more than if they were not racist.  If all of their casting is purely objective and uninfluenced by racism -- then I would say that it is reasonable to call them enlightened and above racism.  If their casting is biased compared to a non-racist point-of-view, then I would say that it is not idiotic to call for some degree of less whitewashed casting.

Quote from: jhkim;278609Well, here's the thing.  There are certainly some set of the movie-going audience with varying degrees of racist bias -- usually subconscious, I expect.  There is also some set of the Hollywood producer crowd with varying degrees of racist bias.  We could go back and forth about how much each of these is.  

Your position seems to be that the producers are generally enlightened types who have no racist bias of their own, but simply are aware of the racist bias in their teenage audiences.  From what I know, I would tend to say the opposite -- that Hollywood studio producers are assholes in general, and more specifically tend to be old white guys with lots of racist assumptions, much moreso than the modern teenager.  Racism is not exactly going away, but it is getting better compared to the fifties and sixties when the older generation grew up.  My best friend from high school is a film writer/director by trade, and hearing about producers through him has deepened rather than dispelled many stereotypes of Hollywood.  

This is not to say that audiences don't have racist bias, but I think the effect of whitewashing comes more from the bias of producers than from audiences.

Yup, I have to say I agree here. I don't think the average teen would have batted an eye had prince zuko been cast as a chinese kid. Nor would the average nerd, from what we can see. And let's face it, the target audience for this movie is not "white christian men age 35-55", its teenagers and nerds.

I also agree that its the movie producers who are responsible.  Its they that are routinely capable of unthinkable acts of idiocy; because only about 2% of anyone involved in the movie industry has any real genius.  The rest are either corporate zombies or fashionistas; the former having to try to suck the life out of anything the people with real talent have made and regurgitate it as pablum, and the latter producing unspeakable atrocious garbage and claiming that its ok, because its "art".

The former are the braniacs who come up with shit like "Oh, hey, I have an idea! That Jesse McCartney is really popular with the girls! Let's make him this Zuko character, even though he's a pretty little aryan and Zuko is supposed to be an ugly scarred chinese kid; its not like any of these preteens will care!"

The latter are the fucktards that come up with equally insulting shit like: "I believe that in the next Batman movie "Batman" should be a black lesbian woman who addresses gotham city's problems by instituting gun control while dealing with her disabled daughter's date rape trauma. AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU'RE AN EVIL RACIST!!!"

RPGPundit

Quote from: Nobilis;278617I could give two shits about the Avatar movie, but the suggestion of a black Dr. Who piques my interest.

Only if the last name was Henry and the first was Lenny.

(Fuck it'd be 10 times better than the guy they have tapped to replace Tennant.)

No, it wouldn't.  Picking a black actor to play Doctor Who would have turned out going only one of two possible ways:

1. It would become all about how the Doctor is Black now.

2. It would become all about how It Doesn't Matter that the Doctor is black now.

Either way, you are fundamentally altering a major aspect of a character (the Doctor) for no really good reason aside from Political Correctness. That is in NO way different than getting Jesse McCartney to play Prince Zuko. Except of course that PC-nerds are a gang of hypocritical little fucks who think that ruining a character for the sake of making him white is unspeakable evil, while ruining a character for the sake of making him not-white is somehow a virtuous act that must not be questioned.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;278642Picking a black actor to play Doctor Who would have turned out going only one of two possible ways:

1. It would become all about how the Doctor is Black now.

2. It would become all about how It Doesn't Matter that the Doctor is black now.

Either way, you are fundamentally altering a major aspect of a character (the Doctor) for no really good reason aside from Political Correctness. That is in NO way different than getting Jesse McCartney to play Prince Zuko.

It sounds like what you're saying is that it isn't the casting per se -- but rather what the writers would do if that casting choice were made.  i.e. They'd be obsessed with the casting choice and write material very differently than if the Doctor were white.  That seems possible to me, as I don't know the series or its writers very well.  

A parallel that springs to mind was changing the character of Starbuck to be a woman in the new Battlestar Galactica series.  Many people criticized this as mindless political correctness.  I've seen the first two seasons of the new series, but only distantly remember a few episodes of the original series.  It seemed to me that the character was mostly handled pretty well.  i.e. It wasn't all about how the character is a woman, though that did come up from time to time.

Quote from: jhkim;278628I will reconstruct.  I complained about the phenomenon both of us observe: that casting is whitewashed in general, and in particular there are almost no Asian-American leads in Hollywood movies.

I was responding to Pundit's comments, not yours.  

QuoteIn response, you implied that I had an idiotic desire for political correctness -

Never happened.

Quote- and that the sole reason for this whitewashing is because it is an objective fact that movies with Asian-American leads cannot be sold to teenage audiences.

The primary reason for this "whitewashing" is that there is little to no evidence that movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences.

Notice the very subtle difference between "It is an objective fact that movies with Asian-American leads cannot be sold to teenage audiences" and "There is no evidence that movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences."  One says it cannot happen, the other says it hasn't happened yet.

Maybe movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences.  It's not a proven fact.  Thus it is a risky proposition.

Quote from: RPGPundit;278642No, it wouldn't.  Picking a black actor to play Doctor Who would have turned out going only one of two possible ways:

1. It would become all about how the Doctor is Black now.

2. It would become all about how It Doesn't Matter that the Doctor is black now.

Either way, you are fundamentally altering a major aspect of a character (the Doctor) for no really good reason aside from Political Correctness. That is in NO way different than getting Jesse McCartney to play Prince Zuko. Except of course that PC-nerds are a gang of hypocritical little fucks who think that ruining a character for the sake of making him white is unspeakable evil, while ruining a character for the sake of making him not-white is somehow a virtuous act that must not be questioned.

RPGPundit

Personally I think people like you are just as bad as people who nerdrage over either or... it may be black and white in your world Pundit but I find a lot more gray area's- in life- than black and white. I would guess that you would be correct- in your assumption- that there would be a small vocal crowd of people yelling about points 1, 2 or both. But I'd be willing to bet the vast (see large) silent majority would eventually determine said black Dr. to be worthy based on his acting ability.

I will admit our society, as it is, would make some kind of statement regarding the new Dr being black, but I'll put in there that the implication or impact would not be as big a deal as it would've been even 10 years ago. If anything I could see it being used as a advertising gimmick. There would be a small pique of interest, then people would settle into the new Dr and either love it, like it, hate it or be indifferent.

For the foreseeable future, there will always be small out spoken pockets of people that will argue against anything... and there will always be a large silent majority that usually doesn't give a shit. This closed off little gaming society reacts much more violently, to off beat announcements, than the general public.

But hey, my dream Dr is and will always be Stephen Fry. And he played a gay character in a movie once... don't you know.

Quote from: RPGPundit;278642Picking a black actor to play Doctor Who would have turned out going only one of two possible ways:

1. It would become all about how the Doctor is Black now.

2. It would become all about how It Doesn't Matter that the Doctor is black now.

Either way, you are fundamentally altering a major aspect of a character (the Doctor) for no really good reason aside from Political Correctness.

I dunno, man.  As John suggests, it'd all be in how the writers handle the change.  As evidence, I submit this exchange from the first episode of the revived Series 1 with Christopher Eccleston as the 9th Doctor:

   Rose: You're an alien? But you have a Northern accent!
Doctor: So?  Lots of planets have a North.

End of subject.  Sure it got commented on again from time to time, but that was the beginning and end of any real discussion of the Doctor's newfound (and potentially controversial) deviation from Received Pronunciation. I can imagine that good writers and producers could and would handle a change in the shade of the Doctor's skin similarly.

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;278687Notice the very subtle difference between "It is an objective fact that movies with Asian-American leads cannot be sold to teenage audiences" and "There is no evidence that movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences."  One says it cannot happen, the other says it hasn't happened yet.

Maybe movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences.  It's not a proven fact.  Thus it is a risky proposition.

I say: Mr. Miyagi.



Don't try to tell me it was that whiney little white bitch that was the lead in them Karate Kid movies.  Pat Morita totally OWNED those films.  Remember who did all the REAL ass whuppin? Yeah.

Sorta like with Big Trouble in Little Chinatown... the guy you THINK is the main character is really just the sidekick, and the Hero is the scrawny asian dude.  Only in KK its a fat old asian dude... and its more obvious.

Quote from: Spike;278700

Quote from: Jackalope;278687Maybe movies with Asian-American leads can be sold to teenage audiences.  It's not a proven fact.  Thus it is a risky proposition.

I say: Mr. Miyagi.

I say: Brandon Lee in The Crow.

Brandon Lee brings me back to my wife's contention that there are plenty of young actors out there who fit the bill of being both Asian and Pundy's requirement that they be wide-eyed like in the cartoon.  The word is "hapa", Hawai'ian for "half", and is increasingly commonly adopted by people of part Pacific Island or Asian descent.  For a little primer, here's Kip Fulbeck's The Hapa Project.

!i!

Damn you Ian, Dman you and your strange button eyes!

I would totally have thought of that (having a Crow shrine set up in my house...not to mention several JO Barr graphic novels in my collection. ) if only I hadn't read some Mr Miyagi love just before posting....

No, no, that's totally cool.  Pat Morita and Brandon Lee are both good examples of how Asian leads carried popular films.  But why haven't more Asian leads caught on like black leads started to in the '80s?  Beats me.  All look same?  That's the usual argument, which, as I understand it, is why hapas are so popular in the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean modeling industry.

!i!

Quote from: Spike;278700I say: Mr. Miyagi.

Supporting Character.

QuoteDon't try to tell me it was that whiney little white bitch that was the lead in them Karate Kid movies.  Pat Morita totally OWNED those films.  Remember who did all the REAL ass whuppin? Yeah.

Still, Daniel is the protagonist of the Karate Kid movies. He drives the action, and he is the character that the audience identifies with.

QuoteSorta like with Big Trouble in Little Chinatown... the guy you THINK is the main character is really just the sidekick, and the Hero is the scrawny asian dude.  Only in KK its a fat old asian dude... and its more obvious.

You are correct that Wang Chi is the "Hero" of Big Trouble in Little China, but Jack Burton is the protagonist, the lead (and he thinks he is the hero).  While Wang Chi drives the action, it is Jack Burton that the audience identifies with. We see the story from his perspective.  The movie was also a commercial failure.

Ask yourself:  Who is featured most prominently on the poster for BTiLC?  Jack Burton.