Quote from: jhkim;278527Well, I didn't know about either of those, so I have no opinion about the particular casting.  (Links, maybe?)  

However, I don't think that every actor needs to be the same race as the character they are playing.  It depends on the work and the other factor.  That said, I do suspect some level of racism if white actors are consistently pulled in to play characters that should be Asian, whereas Asian actors almost never play white characters.  

Regarding Doctor Who -- is there a reason the character couldn't be black-skinned?  I haven't followed the series that much, but as I understood it, he changes his body with every regeneration to have a different appearance.  If he can have different hair color and eye color in a new regeneration, why not a different skin color?  

As for Superman, well, first of all it's a single character.  By parallel, I had no problem with either mixed-race Halle Berry or Caucasian Michelle Pfieffer playing Catwoman.  The original character was dark-haired and light-skinned, but her appearance changed drastically in different versions of the comic, and she has been shown as blond at various times as well.  

In the stories, Superman's background isn't Caucasian.  He is a Kryptonian, and offhand I don't think the Kryptonians are supposed to represent European culture.  In the comics, his appearance has varied a lot. He is consistently dark-haired and light-skinned, which fits with many Asian actors.  I think there's a tendency for many readers to assume that cartoon characters are whatever their majority race is.  i.e. In the U.S., readers consider a character to look Caucasian unless they have dark skin or super-exaggerated eye folds -- while conversely in Japan they consider a character to look Asian unless they have blonde hair.  But really, cartoon images themselves usually don't have the distinctive features that let you distinguish between, say, a dark-haired Latino and a dark-haired German or a dark-haired Korean.

So you have no problem with the casting choices made for the Avatar movie?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Spike;278532I was with you up to the Daxamites.  The Who/at?

Daxam is a cousin-planet to Krypton, where the character of Mon-el/Valor came from (who first appeared in the superman stories, and later became a pivotal character of the Legion of Super-Heroes).  

Daxamites are distantly related to Kryptonians, have the same powers, the same red-sun limitation, but while they are immune to Kryptonite they suffer similar debilitating/poisoning lethal effects with common Lead.

When Superman first met Mon-el, he mistook Mon-el (who was suffering from amnesia at the time) for another survivor of Krypton.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim;278527In the stories, Superman's background isn't Caucasian.  He is a Kryptonian, and offhand I don't think the Kryptonians are supposed to represent European culture.

Superman is Jewish.  He was created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster, both Jews.

They were the children of European immigrants struggling to fit into America, and Superman is very much an expression of their longings and struggles.

It's also worth noting that in an early draft of the Superman story, Superman was not an alien at all -- that was actually a late addition to the story -- and was originally to be the son of the last man on Earth, sent back in time from a distant future.

Quote from: Jackalope;278529Hollywood knows that more white American teens will go see a movie featuring people like them (i.e. white American teens) than will go see a movie featuring Asian teens.  Simple fact.  Stranger still is this fact:  teens in foreign countries will go see a movie with white teens before seeing a movie with Asian teens.

While it is possible, I'm rather skeptical of this as an established fact, as opposed to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  First of all, it seems to me that films with black stars do fine -- i.e. Independence Day, etc.  Second, the Hollywood studios come out with close to zero films with an Asian-American cast, outside of a handful of martial arts films with Jet Li and Jackie Chan that have done fine compared to their competitors (i.e. martial arts films with white stars like Steven Seagal or Jean-Claude Van Damme).  

Can you suggest the studio films that did poorly because of their non-white cast?  The handful of Asian-cast films that I can think of did fine, though that may be because I am more prone to remember successful movies.  For example, do you think that the Harold and Kumar films would have done better if they had suitably-renamed white leads?

Quote from: Jackalope;278534The creator's original vision probably wouldn't make any money though, so hopefully you see the dilemma.

Maybe it would.  Maybe it wouldn't.

I see the dilemma, and, as John suggests above, I suspect that it may be more the result of a self-fulfilling prophecy than manifestation of a truism.

Again, I agree with your assessment that this film is a "cash grab".  But on occasion Hollywood produces films that aren't cash grabs, or at least manage to deviate from the cookie-cutter standard. Pity this film doesn't appear to be one of them.

!i!

Quote from: Jackalope;278540Superman is Jewish.  He was created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster, both Jews.

They were the children of European immigrants struggling to fit into America, and Superman is very much an expression of their longings and struggles.

It's also worth noting that in an early draft of the Superman story, Superman was not an alien at all -- that was actually a late addition to the story -- and was originally to be the son of the last man on Earth, sent back in time from a distant future.

Ok, that's all fair enough, and is part of the history of the character, but that's not the character as he is known today by millions.

The superman that is part of popular culture is a Kansas farmboy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim;278541While it is possible, I'm rather skeptical of this as an established fact, as opposed to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  First of all, it seems to me that films with black stars do fine -- i.e. Independence Day, etc.  Second, the Hollywood studios come out with close to zero films with an Asian-American cast, outside of a handful of martial arts films with Jet Li and Jackie Chan that have done fine compared to their competitors (i.e. martial arts films with white stars like Steven Seagal or Jean-Claude Van Damme).  

Can you suggest the studio films that did poorly because of their non-white cast?  The handful of Asian-cast films that I can think of did fine, though that may be because I am more prone to remember successful movies.  For example, do you think that the Harold and Kumar films would have done better if they had suitably-renamed white leads?

A good example that sinks Jackalope's premise is I Am Legend (2007) which grossed like 257 million in US box office receipts alone (and closed on 600 million when you factored in over seas receipts).

Not only did it excel with a practically non-white cast, it is a movie that was was redone from an earlier white lead, (The Last Man on Earth) Vincent Price.

Quote from: jhkim;278541While it is possible, I'm rather skeptical of this as an established fact, as opposed to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Let's assume it is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- which it almost certainly is.

Do you want to risk $100 million on it?

QuoteFirst of all, it seems to me that films with black stars do fine -- i.e. Independence Day, etc.

As long as the black star in question is named Will or Denzel, then yeah.

That's not really the issue though.  Yes, you can bank on some African-American actors. You can even bank on some Asian actors.

But you can't cast Jet Li as the lead in Avatar, because Jet Li is like 40 or something.  You have to cast someone young.  Which means someone unknown.

Which brings us to the second point:

QuoteSecond, the Hollywood studios come out with close to zero films with an Asian-American cast, outside of a handful of martial arts films with Jet Li and Jackie Chan that have done fine compared to their competitors (i.e. martial arts films with white stars like Steven Seagal or Jean-Claude Van Damme).

First of all, almost NONE of the movies you are thinking of are produced in Hollywood.  they're produced in Hong Kong by Asian producers, and then distributed by American studios.

Second, other than the Rush Hour movies, almost none of Chan's movies have broken $50mil in the US.  He has his fans (I'm one), but he lacks widespread appeal.   And he's practically a household name!

Third, as you've noted, Hollywood studios don't come out with a lot of all-Asian cast films.  You know what that means?  It means studios don't have a list of bankable Asian actors.

QuoteCan you suggest the studio films that did poorly because of their non-white cast?  The handful of Asian-cast films that I can think of did fine, though that may be because I am more prone to remember successful movies.  For example, do you think that the Harold and Kumar films would have done better if they had suitably-renamed white leads?

Dude, Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle -- which was brilliant -- cost $9mil to make and grossed $18mil.   Meanwhile Dude, Where's My Car -- which sucked -- cost $13mil to make and grossed $46mil.

You do the math.  Before they hit the screen, H&K  and Dude? were pretty much indistinguishable from each other.   Both screwball Stoner/Slacker comedies.  One of them was really good and had Asian leads, one was really bad and had white leads.  The good one got a 2:1 return on the investment,  the bad one got 3.5:1 returns.

Is Ashton Kutcher that appealing?  Or do audiences stay away from minority cast films? I don't know.

You want to risk $80 million on it?

Quote from: CavScout;278547A good example that sinks Jackalope's premise is I Am Legend (2007) which grossed like 257 million in US box office receipts alone (and closed on 600 million when you factored in over seas receipts).

Not only did it excel with a practically non-white cast, it is a movie that was was redone from an earlier white lead, (The Last Man on Earth) Vincent Price.

That's actually a horrible example, because I Am Legend starred one of the most bankable actors on the planet: Will Smith.    Will Smith is, in fact, so popular you could film him reading the phone book, put it in theaters, and still make a few million dollars.

Will Smith worked his ass off to get where he is.  Part of Will Smith getting roles like that stems from a) a successful music career, b) a hit television show, and c) a series of roles in small independent features (such as the incredible Six Degrees of Seperation,whereWill plays a gay street hustler) where he demonstrated a proven ability to act.

Keep in mind, this Avatar movie will star KIDS.  In other words: more or less complete unknowns.  I'm sure Hollywood would love to cast a hot, bankable young Asian male in the lead...but I can't name one.  Can you?

Actually, I'll bet Hollywood would love to cast Will Smith in the role.  All the Avatar fans should be happy that the studio didn't decidedto age all the character by ten years so they could stock it with Nameable Actors.

No one is saying that a movie with minority leads can't succeed.  But the reality is that a movie starring complete unknowns is less likely to succeed than a movie with a built-in audience (i.e. Star Power).  And a movie with unknown minority leads is less likely to succeed with kids than a movie with unknown white leads who at least look like the audience.  Since this is going to have to be a big budget film, the studio is already taking a HUGE risk with unknown leads.

What possible reason could they have for taking that sort of risk?  Do you think the average tween who watches this cartoon (and they are the target audience, not us 30 year old adolescent types who still watch cartoons) really cares?  Or even realizes that Aang is Asian?  

Who here is really so delusional and living in a bubble that they believe that the average kid who makes Avatar a hit knows all this obscure crap people keep babbling on about regarding the conventions of Japanese animation?  I think the average American kid sees these characters with brown hair, slight tans, and big round BLUE eyes as white.

Looking at the pictures, I think they did a decent job of casting.   I don't know if these kids can act (most kids can't, since quality acting generally requires life experience to draw emotional reality from), but to my untrained eye they look the parts.  The girl and the kid playing the villain in particular.

Quote from: Jackalope;278557Dude, Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle -- which was brilliant -- cost $9mil to make and grossed $18mil.   Meanwhile Dude, Where's My Car -- which sucked -- cost $13mil to make and grossed $46mil.

You do the math.  Before they hit the screen, H&K  and Dude? were pretty much indistinguishable from each other.   Both screwball Stoner/Slacker comedies.  One of them was really good and had Asian leads, one was really bad and had white leads.  The good one got a 2:1 return on the investment,  the bad one got 3.5:1 returns.

Is Ashton Kutcher that appealing?  Or do audiences stay away from minority cast films? I don't know.

You want to risk $80 million on it?

Which one got a sequel again?

Worth Noting:

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the top grossing all-Asian feature of all time at $128 million.  That was produced in Hong Kong, and its success has yet to be duplicated.  The very similar Hero is next on the list at $55 million.

The Forbidden Kingdom, produced in Hollywood and starring the two most bankable Asian actors on Earth -- Jackie Chan and Jet Li -- only brought in $52 million.

These are the things Hollywood considers when someone suggests an all-Asian cast.

Quote from: Jackalope;278558Keep in mind, this Avatar movie will star KIDS. In other words: more or less complete unknowns. I'm sure Hollywood would love to cast a hot, bankable young Asian male in the lead...but I can't name one. Can you?

I can't name a "hot, bankable young" white male either. I have no idea who these folks are they've got lined up for Avatar either.

Quote from: Jackalope;278562Worth Noting:

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the top grossing all-Asian feature of all time at $128 million.  That was produced in Hong Kong, and its success has yet to be duplicated.  The very similar Hero is next on the list at $55 million.

The Forbidden Kingdom, produced in Hollywood and starring the two most bankable Asian actors on Earth -- Jackie Chan and Jet Li -- only brought in $52 million.

These are the things Hollywood considers when someone suggests an all-Asian cast.

Even good actors (white, asian or black) can't save bad movies.

Quote from: Spike;278561Which one got a sequel again?

Hollywood would love to make a sequel to Dude, Where's My Car.  But they can't, because Ashton Kutcher won't do it and doesn't need to.  If Kutcher was up for it, we'd be on Dude, Where's My Starship? aka Dude, Where's My Car? 5.  But Kutcher hated Dude? and is embarrassed he agreed to do it.  

Meanwhile John Cho and Kal Penn were available and neither one is about to turn down an offer for a leading role.*  Harold and Kumar got a sequel because the first one made money AND because the stars were still available.

* Which, I assume, is why Penn agreed to star in Van Wilder 2: the Rise of  Taj (which I liked, but I like Kal Penn).  Who knows if Penn would be willing to trade a highly visible supporting role on House, M.D. for a leading role in a movie like that now though?

Quote from: CavScout;278565I can't name a "hot, bankable young" white male either. I have no idea who these folks are they've got lined up for Avatar either.

Neither do I, they're relative unknowns.  They might be familiar to the tween-set that Disney Channel caters to.  Until her dad agreed to let that magazine take tasteless photos of her,  I had no idea who Miley Cyrus was either...but I'll bet my 11 year old niece knew of her before that "scandal."

I presume that is why this Jesse McCarthy was cast: because tweens know who he is.  Far from bankable perhaps, but (from a bean counter's POV) better a minor star that may bring in their own audience than a complete unknown that has no audience.  And if it must be a complete unknown, better a complete unknown that isn't challenging.

Sad fact, but many Americans are nominally racist. You should know, since you're practically in the Klan.   While many kids will unthinkingly identify with another bland white kid, present them an Asian kid to identify with and suddenly you're challenging your audience.  You're asking them to identify with someone different than them.  Many of them are up to the task, some are not.

One doesn't risk millions on the proposition that people will rise to your idealistic expectations.  The people in Hollywood that make money are the ones who (rightly, I think) assume the average American movie-goer is a small-minded idiot.

Another factor to consider is this:  An all Asian cast gives the impression that it's an Asian film, which will lead some film goers to incorrectly assume that it is a subtitled film.  You could lose $20 million to that assumption easy.