Quote from: Marleycat;753104I see where he got the numbers now thanks.

Rules Cyclopedia was 304 pages. Though sans the maps and appendices and such it was closer to something like 270 pages.

Quote from: Mistwell;752577It is.  We're dealing with bad faith at this point.  Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.

That's a load of bull. I think the starter set should include printed character creation rules because it'd be better for the game, the hobby, that product, and WotC. No hidden agenda. It's all there in black in white.

Now having said that, the Basic set is fucking awesome.

Quote from: dar;753209That's a load of bull. I think the starter set should include printed character creation rules because it'd be better for the game, the hobby, that product, and WotC. No hidden agenda. It's all there in black in white.

Now having said that, the Basic set is fucking awesome.

I don't think he's referring to the people who think there should have been a chargen (even a basic rules page) included in the starter set.  I mean, has anyone said that they don't want chargen in the rules?

No, I think his comment was in reference to the comments like:

"The starter box should die in fire for not having chargen"
"If you play with pre-gens, that defeats the entire point of the game."
"Without chargen, the starter box is little different than a boardgame."

And more to the point of his mod reference, one certain mod who continues to argue that only the 5e defenders (or 5anatics as he put) are throwing fits and blowing things out of proportion while conveniently ignoring comments like those I just mentioned (which are obviously comments that are blowing things out of proportion).

On a different subject, I saw this posted and thought it was interesting

Quote from: Rygar;6306593I disagree.  There will be an OGL,  but it'll be very different from what people are expecting.

WOTC is going to go the Steam or App store route and let people sell their works through their own webstore for a cut of the profits.  It'll give visibility to products that otherwise never would've been seen by anyone,  "Crowd" source adventure development so that TPP's and creative individuals can easily get their product in front of players,  and then WOTC won't have to worry about budgeting writers saving alot of money.  It would plug the only hole in the original OGL,  that WOTC didn't receive any revenue from it,  while being a huge benefit to TPP who traditionally have trouble with visibility,  and invests some number of users as content creators.

I think we'll also see WOTC leverage its extensive printing contracts to offer a print on demand service for the above material and Dungeon/Dragon.

A *really* smart WOTC would cut a contract with Paizo that treats them as a special tier partner with a higher percentage of sales,  giving them back Dungeon/Dragon duties,  and letting them sell Pathfinder through WOTC's store as well.  

There've been a number of clues that this is what is coming...

-They've said several times that there'll be an OGL and it is still being finalized.
-At GenCon last year they commented (paraphrased) "We know people want to sell or give away their creations,  and we're looking into how to support that".
-They keep referring to D&D as a "Brand" not a product line.
-It looks like 5th edition will use something other than DDI given their recent comments about the 4th edition character builder and subscriptions.  A 5th edition character builder is fairly useless since there's little complexity.  So what is the online goal?  What product is being made?

Quote from: Mistwell;753253On a different subject, I saw this posted and thought it was interesting

A *really* smart WOTC would cut a contract with Paizo that treats them as a special tier partner with a higher percentage of sales, giving them back Dungeon/Dragon duties, and letting them sell Pathfinder through WOTC's store as well.

I think the amicable relationship is well and truly over. I mean even if things are amicable on a personal level between key individuals, the businesses are now clearly in competition.

Interesting speculation, but the supporting evidence looks pretty thin. Seems more like what the poster (and many others, no doubt) would like to see.

Quote from: The_Shadow;753255I think the amicable relationship is well and truly over. I mean even if things are amicable on a personal level between key individuals, the businesses are now clearly in competition.

It is my honest opinion they are not.  I really think WOTC is focusing on brand over game, and I really thing Paizo is focusing on game over brand.  We on the internet love to talk about the competition between the two, but I don't think they think of it that way at all.  Every single panel they're in together they mention this, and yet every single time partisans on the internet ignore it or outright disbelieve it.

Quote from: Bobloblah;753256Interesting speculation, but the supporting evidence looks pretty thin. Seems more like what the poster (and many others, no doubt) would like to see.

I was predicting the exact Basic game we got, over a year ago.  I was told it was wishing thinking based on thin evidence back then by pretty much everyone.  I am not going to dismiss this theory just because it's something I want to see.

Quote from: Mistwell;753274I was predicting the exact Basic game we got, over a year ago.  I was told it was wishing thinking based on thin evidence back then by pretty much everyone.  I am not going to dismiss this theory just because it's something I want to see.

I think you're probably correct. I expect movies, CCG, boardgames and accessories to be the money makers. Enough so they can use the RPG as the pivot point like B&M stores. That's why the push for coherent organized play with seperate but baseline rules. You got to hook'em before you can sell them something.

Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon.  They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?

Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.

Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon.  They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?

Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.

Agreed, but stranger alliances have happened.  Imagine adventure paths having a 5E PDF option.  It might never happen, but I think Paizo would put business success first.  If nothing else it might help make Pathfinder the end of the complexity chain of games.

Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon.  They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?

Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.

I wasn't speaking to that part..but I can see a scenario where they might.  If they can promote Pathfinder right in Dragon from WOTC? Take advantage of all those marketing dollars Hasbro will pour into the D&D brand and get Pathfinder exposure in the primary source of communication with fans in those magazines? I can see them being interested in that.  I am not predicting it will happen, just I can see it.

Ultimately this is about money.  If both parties think they can make more of it through a joint venture, then the odds of that joint venture happening go up.

Quote from: Votan;753294Agreed, but stranger alliances have happened.  Imagine adventure paths having a 5E PDF option.  It might never happen, but I think Paizo would put business success first.  If nothing else it might help make Pathfinder the end of the complexity chain of games.

14 years later and WOTC is STILL finding ways to fuck with Talsorian. Not all dealings with WOTC go well. Though that is the only one I am aware of where dealings with WOTC went less than optimal.

Business-wise a partnership for Pazio with WOTC could be a poor choice if they are aware of WOTC's rep for poor marketing. Working with WOTC garners Pazio... what?

I think Pazio will adapt a wait and see stance to see what the player reaction is to Next. They wouldnt want to hitch their wagon to a possibly leaky boat.

Quote from: Omega;75332214 years later and WOTC is STILL finding ways to fuck with Talsorian. Not all dealings with WOTC go well. Though that is the only one I am aware of where dealings with WOTC went less than optimal.

Eh? I wasn't aware of any beef between WotC and R. Talsorian. What's the deal?

Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon.  They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age

Their numbered Pathfinder Adventure Path series is actually an expensive print magazine in all but name. It's a brilliant trick. 96 pages, but only half of that is the adventure; it's heavily padded out with fiction, monster write ups, various articles etc. It's basically Dungeon magazine without the ads.

I could definitely see a case for them complementing it with a renewed print Dragon magazine, were they offered the license.