Quote from: Age of Fable;263728If rpg's need advancement, why does Traveller have an ongoing popularity? If rpg's don't need advancement, why does Traveller seem to be the only one that doesn't have it?

Traveller is clearly the exception that proves the rule.

And again, it's the advancement characteristic that has made every MMO, like the CRPGs before them, popular.  Heck, it's the only reason why CRPGs were even called RPGs, as most even lacked the ability to create your own unique characters in the beginning.

Quote from: Drohem;263638The 1999 game included information on raising a character up to 3rd level, and the 2004/2006 game included information on raising a character to 2nd level.

In other words, the intro kits are contain fewer and fewer character creation and advancement options as time passes...

Seanchai

Quote from: jgants;263640Character creation and advancement are important because they are two of the defining characteristics of RPGs (despite what unpopular Forge games may try and tell you, they really are).

Yet they're played without either of those all the time.

Seanchai

Quote from: jgants;263941Traveller is clearly the exception that proves the rule.

It's not the only exception. Without even thinking about it, I know of one other game which doesn't have advancement rules: Everway.

Seanchai

Quote from: flyerfan1991;263867I can't tell you about getting new people into roleplaying, but when I was considering GURPS:Traveller, one of my local FLGS' had printed out copies of GURPS Lite as a free handout.  I was able to peruse GURPS Lite and decide whether I wanted to pursue G:T without standing around and reading the GURPS books for an hour or so at the store.  While I still haven't gotten the G:T campaign off the ground, I did decide to buy the main GURPS books based on what I saw (and liked).

Along those lines, I will say that I do think an existing gamer who was new to D&D would like a more full game in the starter set.

Seanchai

Quote from: Age of Fable;263728If rpg's need advancement, why does Traveller have an ongoing popularity? If rpg's don't need advancement, why does Traveller seem to be the only one that doesn't have it?

Traveller has clear advancement it is in a form other than updating character stats. It is reflected in the two most popular forms of traveller campaigns; the mercenary and the free trader.

It the acquisition of more wealth, and power along with the accumulation of knowledge about the mysteries of the setting of the Third Imperium. The major rule subsystems and the subsequent supplements support these theme so strongly that the lack of character advancement hasn't held back Traveller. However it hasn't helped it either. As many noted character advancement is so prevalent in RPG design it is a shock when it is not present.

I will add that the character generation system also contributes to having Traveller accepted despite it lack of advancement. However the lack advancement that most people, in my experiences, wind up rolling characters with 5 to 7 terms.

Quote from: Seanchai;263953It's not the only exception. Without even thinking about it, I know of one other game which doesn't have advancement rules: Everway.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about popular games.

Quote from: jgants;264032I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about popular games.

And Traveller is popular? C'mon.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;264057And Traveller is popular? C'mon.

Well, popular-ish, at least.  

I admit, I usually find the purported historical popularity of Traveller and (especially) Runequest to be rather exaggerated from my observations of the 80's gaming scene.  But maybe that's a US vs UK thing.

Anyhow, wouldn't that just prove my point further - that popular games all used character advancement rules, making such rules a cornerstone of the RPG experience?

Quote from: jgants;263941Traveller is clearly the exception that proves the rule.

No, it's not, 'cause Traveller does include rules for character advancement.

It just doesn't have classes and levels.

Quote from: jgants;263941Traveller is clearly the exception that proves the rule.

How does that one work again?

Quote from: The Shaman;264204No, it's not, 'cause Traveller does include rules for character advancement.

It just doesn't have classes and levels.

If I recall correctly, the only game that really eschewed just about any kind of character advancement to a noticeable degree was probably TSRs Boot Hill.  It took grueling, painful  scores of 'adventures' to finally scrape together enough xp to raise one of your skills a point or two.  And it has been so long since I played that, I don't really recall if you even could raise scores.

Regarding advancement in Traveller, it was hardly worth the effort.  Any improvement to skills is done in four year blocks, in which you can increase your education by 6 (only if your EDU was below your INT to begin with), or you can obtain a single skill at level 2.  After you spend CR 70k.

You can temporarily increase weapon skills for the duration of a four year training regimen, but those increases aren't permanent until the end of a second four year course, and you have to make a dedication to purpose throw of 8+.  Increasing other skills is similar in mechanics.

STR, END and DEX can be increased through a physical training program, but only if you make a dedication throw of 8+, and the benefits are lost if you discontinue the program.

In other words, those really aren't advancement rules.  Those are occasional minor improvement rules, as long as you don't mind being more or less out of the action for almost a decade.

Quote from: StormBringer;264278If I recall correctly, the only game that really eschewed just about any kind of character advancement to a noticeable degree was probably TSRs Boot Hill.  It took grueling, painful  scores of 'adventures' to finally scrape together enough xp to raise one of your skills a point or two.  And it has been so long since I played that, I don't really recall if you even could raise scores.

Are you thinking of 3e Boot Hill?

The 2e BH experience metric is very simple: number of gunfights survived. As your character survives gunfights, s/he becomes faster and more accurate.

(As a side note, my favorite rules in BH have to do with drinking: if your character consumes alcohol, the character's gun and throwing accuracy decreases but his or her courage increases. I discoverd that my character was actually more accurate drunk than sober as the increase in courage-related accuracy was greater than the loss from the gun accuracy score. Good times.)

Quote from: StormBringerRegarding advancement in Traveller, it was hardly worth the effort. . . . In other words, those really aren't advancement rules.  Those are occasional minor improvement rules, as long as you don't mind being more or less out of the action for almost a decade.

That's not accurate.

The only one that required your character to spend a term-equivalent was the trade school option, that granted a single [skill]-2 (or college to increase Edu) at the end of four years. We most often use this option as part of chargen: after the character musters out, the player might spend some cash to pick up an additional skill before actual adventuring begins.

All of the other advancement options can be pursued in the course of adventuring; they happen in the background for all intents and purposes, provided the character is able to justify some time spent in study. Usually this is time spent in jump space between worlds.

There are also the training rules associated with the Instruction skill: new skills can be picked up in as little as weeks, or at worst months, rather than years.

I really like advancement in Traveller, because it's something that a player chooses, rather than an across the board increase in stats gained from potentially unrelated activity. I also like that the advancement rules improved skills at the same rate as normal chargen.

Shaman, per LBB 2 a PC needs to enlist in two four-year "programs" to raise two skills permanently by one level. Eight ( years. *And* he needs to make his "dedication roll" twice.

In the case of non-weapon skills he can't learn new skills at all. He can only increase skills in which he already has levels.

Sure, for some weird reason the skill is increased provisionally right at the start of the program. But that's just it. Advancement is either a dead giveaway, or, if the GM takes it seriously, 8 years game time spent exercising on the side.

What it boils down to (with thanks to Pierce Inverarity for the confirm) is that the advancement in Traveller was sparse and barely worth the effort, unless you were in dire need of a certain skill four to eight years down the road; in Boot Hill, it was nearly as spotty.  Boot Hill, of course, lacked any kind of extra-combat skills to begin with, so advancing your speed and to hit can only be considered 'character improvement' by the narrowest of margins, and almost in a wholly technical sense.

Mr Gants' point, then, still stands.  You can't heave a brick without hitting a half-dozen (popular/mainstream) games with some kind of tangible character advancement.  One of the major factors of role-playing games is that your character gets better skills and abilities as you progress.  Very, very few have limited or no character advancement, so it is reasonable to assume that if you want your game to be popular, or at least played by a wider group of people, character advancement rules are essential.