TheRPGSite

Now, thanks for your attention. As some of you might already know, I have huge problems with the recent and encroaching changes of atmosphere and actual rules application on theRPGsite.

I always postulated that any bannings that are not based on self-evident and unequivocal (read: illegal) wrongdoings are wrong and hurt the climate of the site.

I harshly argumented against the ban of CavScout and WalkerP before, and I postulated these were the first steps unto a very slippery slope.

Now, as with so many things, I have sadly been proven to be correct.

Just look at the current climate of this site:

Quote"Full of bitchyass femnazis"

Woohoo, first Dominus Nox, the CavScout, now this guy.

Can we just save ourselves the six months of drama and ban him now?

In the thread were a new user, Jim Profit, makes his rather creative entrée.

I´m 100% certain, that Kyle was 100% serious about what he said.

Pundit, is THIS what you wanted?

1) Now there is a "we", that´s wrong for starters.

2) But then "we" have thought crimes!

3) And "we" have "regulars" that proclaim who is fit and who´s not for posting, along with a popularity contest to find out who may stay and be obnoxious, and who´s kicked for being obnoxious.

EDIT: I have noticed more instances of such behaviour, from many people. It´s an overall change. For example, Abyssal Maw was threatened with a ban too.

Ah yes the title:

There´s a new offense here at theRPGSite, and that´s "disruption". I think the climate perpetuated by, for example, Kyle Aaron is disrupting behaviour, disrupting the very foundations on which theRPGsite has been build: free and open discussion of RPGs.

I hope you see were this is going.

Quote from: Settembrini;296083EDIT: I have noticed more instances of such behaviour, from many people. It´s an overall change. For example, Abyssal Maw was threatened with a ban too.

Where was he threatened ?

Edit: And did you put up a fight for Fritz, too? And Jackalope ?

Regards,
David R

IIRC, I fought for everyone of them. Mabye not Cavscout actually, because that´s when I already had left. But I definitely checked in some while ago, saw another banning and spoke out against it. So let´s say I fought for everyone as long as I was there.

But Fritzs I remember defending, And I hate that guy with a passion!

IIRC AM was threatened in one of the 4e-shitburger-threads, I´d say it was Stuart who did it. I might be able to find that one, if you don´t believe me.

Oh, and there have generallyy been poisonous remarks since the bannings came quicker and faster, even by mods like OneHorseTown.

I don't believe you Sett. I know of the socalled ban threat/exchange between AM and OHT you are refering to. Anyone can look it up and see, how you are taking things out of context. Christ, it wasn't even a threat. If you got any other evidence of rampant ModThuggery, please share.

Regards,
David R

Well, what means "you don´t believe me" in that context?

That such things do not exist?

Well, what about what Kyle Aaron just said? You believe me he said that, do you? OK, then let´s start from there. I think it´s wrong in many several ways. I do think it´s not the first time someone said something like this. Do you want to argue against that?

EDIT: Another pointer to the changed atmosphere. http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=290835&postcount=51, and it was stuart.

I agree with Sett in the spirit of what he's trying to say of not the exact way he's saying it.
I am all for lifting all of the bans.
The main problem with each one of the posters mentioned is that other posters can't simply scroll on past them and keep on keepin on.

Quote from: Settembrini;2960833) And "we" have "regulars" that proclaim who is fit and who´s not for posting, along with a popularity contest to find out who may stay and be obnoxious, and who´s kicked for being obnoxious.

Welcome to "society".  I am sure "you" have it in Germany, too.  It means that after a certain size, an agreement on behaviour coalesces, often unwritten.  Don't shit on your neighbour's carpet, for example.

We aren't 4chan, but we aren't tBP either.  theRPGsite sits comfortably in the happy medium.  I am content with that, because it means I don't have to read inchoate ramblings by internet tough guys who are only searching for forums to disrupt to get their kicks, but I can still call a cockslobbering douchebag when they earn the title.

So, go out and start your own forum where any pedophile can troll for victims, and illegal filesharing is rampant.  Proboards is a good place to start, if you don't want to get a domain.  Let me know how long that lasts for you.

QuoteI agree with Sett in the spirit of what he's trying to say of not the exact way he's saying it.

Would that be in the 'you're full of shit, but I still love you man' kind of way
or the 'I totally agree but don't want to become tarnished by the crazy brush too' kind of way or even the 'I have no fucking idea but I love a pissing contest' kind of way?? This is the RPGsite...you gotta be exact, bitches.

For me -and strictly speaking for me, here- Freedom comes with responsibilities.

When some posters are not responsible, act consistently like douches, endlessly provoke fights instead of discussing ideas, and are just plain assholes, they open themselves to sanction.

That is a consequence of their actions, not Pundit's. Otherwise, that's just anarchy with just a handful of dickheads hijacking all discussion threads. At some point, as an admin/mod (and yes, I have some XP in the field), you've got to make a very practical choice at one point of where, exactly, you draw the line of free speech.

If you think there doesn't ever need to be a line, I encourage you to create your own forums, Sett, and experiment.

Quote from: Kellri;296100Would that be in the 'you're full of shit, but I still love you man' kind of way
or the 'I totally agree but don't want to become tarnished by the crazy brush too' kind of way or even the 'I have no fucking idea but I love a pissing contest' kind of way?? This is the RPGsite...you gotta be exact, bitches.

I am the crazy brush, sweetheart.

Aos, how would you say it?

Oh, and BTW: If Pundit comes to this thread and tells me:

"It´s exactly the climate I want to have.", then the discussion is moot.


 I´m operating under the assumption Pundit actually does not like such a climate.

Quote from: Settembrini;296105Aos, how would you say it?

Mainly I wouldn't bother invoking Stuart or Kyle. There isn't really any forum wide groupthink. There are just clusters of users who either want to see more bannings, or those who think there should be less- or as in my case, none.

I admit I've changed my view on this since the Dominus nox time. I've also gotten really good at ignoring people- without using an IL.

Are you saying I should ban Kyle, Sett?

And no, the type of environment you describe is one I would not like to have. I just don't believe that theRPGsite has that environment, the one that's in your mind. We've picked off some trolls who were here in bad faith, and in your mind that makes it the Stazi all over again.

Its not. If someone was really threatening Abyssal Maw with banning or suggesting that I might ban him, they're fucking retards.

As for Jim Profit, he's apparently a well-known troll who managed to get himself banned from 4chan, of all things. Which has no bearing whatsoever on whether he'll be banned here or not, except that certain people expect him to repeat the same kind of actions and get banned here too.
Note that thus far he's talked about "feminazis" and made roundabout pussy-like insinuations about how he'd like to go postal on WoTC headquarters, and while the latter got him a serious bitchslapping from me for him being such a retard, neither of those have gotten him banned.  Which kind of proves this place is not, and is at little risk of becoming, the Orwellian nightmare that you expect it to.

And yes, you're right, I'm sure Kyle meant it too. He's made it obvious that he's a control freak with crypto-fascistic tendencies who desperately would like to be in charge of how things are done in this site, and if he was would be wallowing in his petty power like a pig in slop, banning all he felt was unworthy of his presence.
But he's not in power. He doesn't even have influence, because on these sorts of things I mostly consider him to be something of a prick, and he's pretty well the last person I would confer with on these matters.  No matter how much he might like it, he will never ever be as much as a mod here.

So really, he's just a guy exercising his free speech. Which brings us back to the question of what would you have me do to him?

RPGPundit

Quotewhat would you have me do to him?

Obviously, nothing. I hope that much is clear-

Still, Kyle, or any other guy, could not even make these comments if it weren´t for what has happened.

It would be all nice and dandy if you hadn´t shown that you can be swayed by other peoples opinion.

And those people are in the upswing, they feel they have power over who may post here. And the sad part is: It´s proven that they have that power.

Quote from: Settembrini;296092Well, what means "you don´t believe me" in that context?

That such things do not exist?

Well, what about what Kyle Aaron just said? You believe me he said that, do you? OK, then let´s start from there. I think it´s wrong in many several ways. I do think it´s not the first time someone said something like this. Do you want to argue against that?

EDIT: Another pointer to the changed atmosphere. http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=290835&postcount=51, and it was stuart.

I won't argue against it. I'm all for the banning of certain wankers. See, Sett, I never bought into that whole freedom of speech BS. But you Sett, are a disingenuos cretin. You first started this BS about a year ago. You said you believed in the market place of ideas - I always wondered how someone so against pretension, could think in such twee terms about gaming - but got all huffy when people started engaging with posters like TonyLB and luke. You then decided to leave or maybe it was the whole "let's all be silent for a week" plea.

Then you lumped kyle, me ,droog (who totally buys into the whole freedom of speech, nonsense,btw) and someone else - the socalled Gang of Four -  and claimed that we were changing the tone of this place. You decided to leave.

Now, you come back and have latched on to these bannings. What the hell is the matter with you, Sett ? I'm no fan of the Pundit, but what exactly do you want from him ?

(And the link you posted. Doesn't mean a fucking thing. People have always talked like that )

Regards,
David R

David, you keep having severe problems in reading comprehension. As it turns out the "Gang of Four"-Joke was about Pierce, the Rabbit, Melan and me. And it was a joke, and it´s meaning had to be explained to you back then (not by me, so I know it´s not my fault). This has shit to do with droog or you. You are just an example of a person that ignores certain stages of discourse that you yourself have been a part of. Like the Gang of Four joke, you now somehow muddled up with something else in your brain.

Apart from this: you don´t believe in Freedom of Speech. Please leave this thread, there´s nothing for you to see here then.

Thanks Pundit for answering BTW. The only thing that is now remaining open for discussion:

Has Pundit let himself be swayed into banning someone by others? What´s everyone´s take on that?

I say he did.

Quote from: Settembrini;296143Has Pundit let himself be swayed into banning someone by others? What´s everyone´s take on that?

I say he did.

I say no he didn't.

Holy smokes, I cannot fathom what you mean by this:

QuoteAround here there are only two modes: free speech, and troll. And I cut trolls, and then burn them.

Trolling is a bannable offense now?!? :confused:

Well, anyhow, I made my points. I don´t want to

1) support the current climate by ignoring it and participating anyways
2) "disrupt" the Site everytime free speech is in danger, when even the owner himself isn´t behind it anymore.

So this results in reverting back to previous behaviour.

Quote from: Drohem;296147I say no he didn't.

Haha, you weren´t even around when it happened, no?

Sett, the GoF reference was for another thread you started when you threatened to leave. I'm well aware of your little jokes with Elliot & Co. I didn't say I don't believe in freedom of speech. I said I don't believe in it here. If there was freedom of speech - I mean the real deal - we would be allowed to post porn, death threats, pedofantasies etc. Is that what you want Sett ? And really, talking about the "we excluding" mentality and then asking me to leave the thread. You're the only muddled one here.

Edit: And asking if Dorhem was around. After all you have said so far, what difference does it make ? C'mon Sett, I'm daring you to make a sincere coherent argument.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Settembrini;296151Haha, you weren´t even around when it happened, no?

When what happened, specifically, since you seem to be all over the map in this thread- past and present.

This was the question I was responding to:

Has Pundit let himself be swayed into banning someone by others? What´s everyone´s take on that?

I answered that question.  Does that question have the qualifier of something that happened sometime in the dim mists of time?

I was here when WalkerP got banned, and I was here when CavScout got banned.  So, yes, I do have an opinion on the question you proposed to every member of this site, and I answered.

What's the problem?

He hasn't banned enough jackasses, IMHO. The site-stalkers who follow him from thread to thread waving their "We Don't Like Pundit" placards might as well be banned.

So, if you check out those bans you were there for: There were HUGE discussions, and Pundit repeatedly said he was acting in part because of the many complaints he got about Cavscout, for example. So, without complaints, there would not have been a ban.
That´s what I´m talking about.

EDIT: the above post should nicely illustrate my point. Such things would NEVER have been said on theRPGSite of yore. Now it´s a perfectly legal statement, and one that hits home.

Quote from: Settembrini;296163EDIT: the above post should nicely illustrate my point. Such things would NEVER have been said on theRPGSite of yore. Now it´s a perfectly legal statement, and one that hits home.

You mean like the numerous Public Consultations threads that were created by the Pundit. Or how about the ones created about Dominus Nox. Or Mythusmage. Or how about the time J.Arcane created one about Serious Paul. Hold on. Didn't you want to ban or exile Forge/Theory talk ? What happened to freedom of speech and not influencing the Pundit ? Sincere, cogent argument, Sett. Try it some time. You may enjoy it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Settembrini;296163So, if you check out those bans you were there for: There were HUGE discussions, and Pundit repeatedly said he was acting in part because of the many complaints he got about Cavscout, for example. So, without complaints, there would not have been a ban.
That´s what I´m talking about.

So, let me get this straight, Pundit specifically told you that he would not have banned those two if there were no complaints?

No, I didn't think so.  You are being disingenuous with that kind of wild speculation.  

The honest truth is that both WalkerP and CavScout wanted to be banned.  They repeatedly dared Pundit to do it, and he refrained because they were just spouting noise.  They finally did cross the line in their pursuit to get banned, and did.  What's the problem?

I think that there's a disconnect here.

Most of us here believe in free speech but also believe that acting like a dick means you're not acting as a responsible individual, and thus you open yourself to sanction. Free speech without responsibility is just plain anarchy.

Sett believes in an absolute free speech. As soon as there is moderation and sanction, in any shape or form, this is no longer free speech. Do I get that right, Sett?

Not entirely. Illegal stuff needs to be prevented.
I´m not an anarchist.

Also, the purpose of this site [as I understood and supported it back when] is not free speech itself, but free speech for RPGs.

EDIT: Benoist, you must know, theRPGsite actually operated perfectly in my eyes, i.g. according to my principles, until Pundit had a change of mind/something happened. I don´t really don´t know what, so I poke once in a while.

Quote from: David R;296171You mean like the numerous Public Consultations threads that were created by the Pundit. Or how about the ones created about Dominus Nox. Or Mythusmage. Or how about the time J.Arcane created one about Serious Paul. Hold on. Didn't you want to ban or exile Forge/Theory talk ? What happened to freedom of speech and not influencing the Pundit ? Sincere, cogent argument, Sett. Try it some time. You may enjoy it.

Regards,
David R

You are indeed stupid beyond recognition. I never wanted what you express, and it shows that any complexity of argument is lost to you.

For the others: I was angered by a Forger invasion, and called everyone to fight their shilling and abuse of this site in the free speech way. Pundit, among others was too lazy. So I said he then has to topic-ban them, if he doesn´t want them here. This was back then, when saying this would make people wake up.

Interestingly enough, what I painted as a horrible future became true. I always loathed the public consultation threads too.

David, let me tell you something: You are the person that will 100% of the time spring in any thread I open, and take the opposite stance of what I say, no matter what I say. Who´s dishonest/disingenuos here?  I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and I was wrong.

Look, maybe I should keep on this site to prove you are stalking me. And then "get you banned". That´s to your liking, no?
Because that´s now the way tot talk here, and it reminds me of another place...

OK, I think there´s nothing to be said here anymore for me. I beg you Pundit, look what you have created, and ask yourself if it really is what you want.

Unban the banned!

Were guys like CavScout around when the site was running according to your principles?
Wouldn't it be possible that what changed was the popularity of theRPGsite which attracted dicks to dispose of?

Yes, Sett, someone trolling who is here exclusively to try to fuck up the site has ALWAYS been a bannable offense.

Just like with Nox, just like with Cavscout, etc etc.  As long as they were just assholes, they were able to post here; but the second that evolved into actual SITE DISRUPTION they were banned. Which was my policy from DAY FUCKING ONE.

The fact that you never liked that, and preferred to have some vision of... what? A place where anyone could post any shit whatsoever here including having people come on to make sure that no conversation could ever happen here posting shit to destroy the site?.. doesn't mean that this was EVER the plan anywhere other than in your own imagination; just like the fact that Kyle might want this place to be one that bans people on the basis of who he doesn't get along with doesn't make it so anywhere outside of his imagination.

You say that something here has "changed" that has made Kyle "able" to say shit like he does. He has ALWAYS said that kind of shit, since he first got here. He was here like, a week before he started trying to tell people how this place should be run, including banning people.

So fuck off with the revisionist history already.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;296181Were guys like CavScout around when the site was running according to your principles?
Wouldn't it be possible that what changed was the popularity of theRPGsite which attracted dicks to dispose of?

Nothing actually changed. Sett has created some kind of fantasy in his mind. The fact that I went a year without banning anyone was mainly because it took a year before a really serious site-disrupting level of troll (Nox) showed up.

Had Nox showed up and done the same things on day1 of my running this site, I'd have banned him then, too.

Had Cavscout been around in the beginning, the only difference is I'd have done a "public consultation" thread before banning him. I had given up on those as largely useless (because people who's opinions I valued would rarely post there, and instead it became an opportunity for all the Rogues Gallery to come out and throw their fecal matter at me). But he'd have been banned for the same actions.

RPGPundit

This is addressed to the Pundit and all the Mods. Look through all my spats with Sett. I have rarely engaged with him, when he goes on about 4E. The only interactions I have had with him, are the times when he goes on about Forge gamers/games, theory and well the whole Swine BS. I think this falls into the freedom of speech about rpgs this board is about - and I am not the only one who has brawled with him about his fucked up views. If any of you think I'm stalking him, topic ban me or something.

Because honestly I'm sick of his bullshit. Every damn point he has made on this thread, I've have refuted with examples. And don't worry. I wont be a whiny bitch about it. Accusing someone of being a stalker is the type of behaviour that goes on in tBP. This dishonest turd, comes here, makes statements and wants it to go unchallenged, That's his idea of free fucking speech.

Edit: Where the fuck did I "[DavidR] implicitly acknowledges there are different phases in regards to bannings. ?. Now outright lies.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPundit;296182You say that something here has "changed" that has made Kyle "able" to say shit like he does. He has ALWAYS said that kind of shit, since he first got here. He was here like, a week before he started trying to tell people how this place should be run, including banning people.

So fuck off with the revisionist history already.

RPGPundit

Well, kyle has always said stuff like this, I´m not sure of this. But let´s say for a moment that might be true: now he´s speaking with people behind him that want the same shit. And you have been influenced by them into banning people, or have banned people PURELY because of your own ego (WalkerP).

In regards to "revisionist history": It´s like this. I perceive a change, that´s even happening right now. Others do so, too. Hell, even DavidR implicitly acknowledges there are different phases in regards to bannings. So when you tell me you have not changed anything in the policy...

a) I & others have a perception problem
b) you have a perception problem

What is interesting for me, is that you now say that your stance hasn´t changed at all. That in effect means our stances now DEFINITELY don´t go together.
 
Whereas back in the day, theRPGSite had an atmosphere that invited trolls, who tried how hard they could push (many, many people understood your policy as "no bannings EVAR";  so they tried to get banned; remember how many times you felt the need to post "Oh I never said I´d never ban anybody" afterwards?).

Now the atmosphere is one were certain people idle around waiting when the next person comes over they can ban. That´s a fundamental difference in my eyes.

Quote from: shalvayez;296162He hasn't banned enough jackasses, IMHO. The site-stalkers who follow him from thread to thread waving their "We Don't Like Pundit" placards might as well be banned.

Dude, step back for a moment and separate the Pundit as moderator from the pundit as a poster. As mod he's is for the most part not so bad (I'm against the bannings, personally, but overall he does a good job) as a poster he thrives on controversy and disagreement. Which, by his own standards and the standards of the site as a whole, is completely cool. He flings shit people fling back- he doesn't appear to have too much of a problem with it (to his credit) maybe you should follow his example and take the fucking stick out of your ass.

Quote from: Settembrini;296175Not entirely. Illegal stuff needs to be prevented.
I´m not an anarchist.

And yet, the douchebag you are pitching a fit over has already admitted to illegal behaviour (pirating) and suggested further illegal behaviour (shooting up WotC's offices).

So...  Ban them is what you are saying?

Quote from: StormBringer;296200And yet, the douchebag you are pitching a fit over has already admitted to illegal behaviour (pirating) and suggested further illegal behaviour (shooting up WotC's offices).

So...  Ban them is what you are saying?

Sett's point has nothing to do with the poster. It has to do with the change in attitude to that of one where we can rally the villagers with thier pitchforks and torches to banish the outsider because he displeases us.

In short, it is not about Jim Profit but about Kyle and more accurately, about the attitude Kyle embodies in his post, a sense of being able to call for preemptive banning based on popular or cliquish appeal.

Quote from: Settembrini;296193Well, kyle has always said stuff like this, I´m not sure of this. But let´s say for a moment that might be true: now he´s speaking with people behind him that want the same shit. And you have been influenced by them into banning people, or have banned people PURELY because of your own ego (WalkerP).

Oh please. How many MONTHS were Nox and Cavscout both here before either of them got any kind of ban??
There were people from DAY ONE calling for Cavscout and Jackalope to be banned, both of them lasted months.

When I ban someone its not because of "peer pressure". There are some people who get banned after a prolonged campaign by other posters calling for them to be banned (cavscout, nox), there are others who get banned without any such demands (walker). I ban people for only one reason: because they have broken my rules and disrupted the site.
People could, for example, call for Abyssal Maw's banning till their faces turn blue, but unless he did something radically different than what he does now, it would never ever happen no matter how many people demanded it.

This whole thread is absurd. You're essentially complaining about a bunch of people exercising their free speech, while complaining about me supposedly listening to their unsolicited advice, while giving me unsolicited advice. :rolleyes:

Quotea) I & others have a perception problem
b) you have a perception problem

What is interesting for me, is that you now say that your stance hasn´t changed at all. That in effect means our stances now DEFINITELY don´t go together.

I don't think either of our positions ever changed, sett. The difference is back then you had created this illusion for yourself that I agreed with you, and when it turned out not to be so you now thought "He's changed!", when if you look back to the rules and mission statement I set up from DAY ONE here it was clear that I was completely willing to ban people for site disruption, cyber stalking or other activities that would damage this site; and considered that essential to avoid a gang of Forger-Kamikazes coming in here and trying to ruin this place to prove a point.

You somehow lied to yourself thinking that this place would be All free-speech all the time. You say you're not an anarchist but what you are suggesting is essentially anarchy.  It is apparently less stringent rule than even 4chan has. It would mean that a dozen posters could come on here and post images of pedobear a thousand times over and over again making it impossible for people to carry on conversations, but we'd have to let them destroy any usefulness this site has in the name of "free speech".  

My free speech NEVER meant "you can post absolutely anything and do whatever the fuck you want"; it ALWAYS meant "you will never be banned here because you have a certain opinion about RPGs", and I've stuck to that, and even extended it to a certain degree to things like politics or religion.  No one has ever been banned here for being a forgie, or a storygamer, or a right-winger, or a christian, or an atheist; or for loving D&D, or for hating Amber, or for playing Vampire, or anything else along those veins.
For fuck sake, I was reluctant to ban a guy who was an apparent pedophile.  It took an obvious racist like Nox MONTHS to get banned.  And Jim Profit is an obvious little turd wanker, but I haven't banned him, yet.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;296221Sett's point has nothing to do with the poster. It has to do with the change in attitude to that of one where we can rally the villagers with thier pitchforks and torches to banish the outsider because he displeases us.

In short, it is not about Jim Profit but about Kyle and more accurately, about the attitude Kyle embodies in his post, a sense of being able to call for preemptive banning based on popular or cliquish appeal.

Sure but Kyle has also ALWAYS had that attitude. He desperately wants to be in charge of his own little clique, wants people to listen to him and think he's smarter than the average aussie (not hard). He's been on I don't know how many crusades to have his way, like hypocritically spending lots of time on off-topic while calling for off-topic to be banned, since the day he got here.

He might have a couple of people who think he's cool shit, but no one important around here gives a fuck about what he thinks.  So Sett is setting up a red herring. It wouldn't matter if 200 people rallied behind Kyle's call for banning someone. If that someone didn't do something, and on THIS site, to merit banning, I wouldn't ban him.
That's the difference between this place and RPG.net. The  self-styled "cool kids" don't run things. The guy with the pipe and the spiked baseball bat of great justice does. And that's what makes this place so good compared to other larger or far lesser sites.

RPGPundit

Does anybody actually think 'mob action' will get Pundit to change his mind about anything?

Quote from: RPGPundit;296224Sure but Kyle has also ALWAYS had that attitude. He desperately wants to be in charge of his own little clique, wants people to listen to him and think he's smarter than the average aussie (not hard). He's been on I don't know how many crusades to have his way, like hypocritically spending lots of time on off-topic while calling for off-topic to be banned, since the day he got here.

Just going from what Sett has posted here, again, I think this misses the point. It is not about Kyle. It is about the attitude presented by Kyle and propagated in others, that is, the sense that "My post count is high/I am one of Pundit's supporters/I am a REAL RPGer" and there fore they can call for the banning of people premptively.

Quote from: RPGPundit;296224He might have a couple of people who think he's cool shit, but no one important around here gives a fuck about what he thinks.  So Sett is setting up a red herring. It wouldn't matter if 200 people rallied behind Kyle's call for banning someone. If that someone didn't do something, and on THIS site, to merit banning, I wouldn't ban him.

No, but I am only going on my understanding of what he has posted, this again misses the mark. It does not matter is no one gets behind Kyle. It could be Kyle one day, Stormbringer the next, Shalavayez the third and none of them agree. It is the culture of entitlement as it takes hold, as it makes its presence felt. Sett then goes on to, of course, state that you are influenced by these people. This culture would mean nothign if they could not influence you and those you ban.

It should also be noted a second point is given by Sett about the centralized power and banning that you do based on your ego (he sites WalkerP banning).

Quote from: RPGPundit;296224That's the difference between this place and RPG.net. The  self-styled "cool kids" don't run things. The guy with the pipe and the spiked baseball bat of great justice does. And that's what makes this place so good compared to other larger or far lesser sites.

RPGPundit

See, Sett has set up a somewhat clever argument here. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can be "catering to cliques" or you can be an "ego driven" petty dictator. In this statement, you favor the later.

Quote from: jrients;296233Does anybody actually think 'mob action' will get Pundit to change his mind about anything?

No, but I can only speak for me.

Quote from: jrients;296233Does anybody actually think 'mob action' will get Pundit to change his mind about anything?

I don't think at all.

The drama here confounds me. Eveybody needs to quit being a whiny bitch and get to some game discussion.

Well, Sett? Jim Profit essentially posted a death threat against me and my family, and threatened to try to "take down" this site through hacking.

Is that enough, in your world, for someone to be banned?

RPGPundit

Sett your idea that some kind of Barvarian Illuminati order is being installed here is false. Your would be combination of Freethought and Anarchism seem to be at odds with one another. While you dont seem to think of it as such, you are truely looking for this board to be a dictatorship of the proletariat. Looking to Punidit to be your Marx. But now you preceive him as being part of the Bourgeoisie. This is simply not true. This board has always been a Constitutional dictatorship. Where as the head of this board only only exercises his power during a time of need. Which has proved indeed to be a rare event.

Your would be crusade to return this place back to your imagined ideals. Is at best a foolhardy journey. For the only way to truely effect change to the would be politics of this board would be to launch a Guardian coup d’état. Which is quite imposssible.

Perhaps you would be better served to return to your self imposed exile. Instead of enduring this self inflicted gauntlet of menial mental combat. I think in the end it would best satisfy all parties involved.

Overall though KrakaJak probably has it right,

QuoteThe drama here confounds me. Eveybody needs to quit being a whiny bitch and get to some game discussion.

Quote from: HinterWelt;296235It could be Kyle one day, Stormbringer the next, Shalavayez the third and none of them agree.

I see your point, but I don't recall asking for anyone to be banned, although I have supported such measures in the past against certain posters.

Additionally, I seriously doubt Pundit has any awareness of me beyond "userid=3692".  I would have not even the merest fraction of influence on Pundit that JongWK would have, for example.  I have even less influence on the board as a whole, so rallying people to my 'banner' would be a lonely exercise, indeed.

Which I have no interest in doing, anyway.  I was an early supporter of CavScout getting dumped, as I could see quite clearly the pattern, and that it wouldn't really change.  His whole purpose for being here was to yell louder than anyone else.  Jackalope at least had a few interesting threads about rpgs, although they lagged far behind the other nonsense he was often on about.  However, I don't have the overall concern that any of them would be a problem that required the board to come together as a whole to fend off.  Admins and Mods are fully able to direct the board as they will.

Quote from: StormBringer;296263I see your point, but I don't recall asking for anyone to be banned, although I have supported such measures in the past against certain posters.

Additionally, I seriously doubt Pundit has any awareness of me beyond "userid=3692".  I would have not even the merest fraction of influence on Pundit that JongWK would have, for example.  I have even less influence on the board as a whole, so rallying people to my 'banner' would be a lonely exercise, indeed.

Which I have no interest in doing, anyway.  I was an early supporter of CavScout getting dumped, as I could see quite clearly the pattern, and that it wouldn't really change.  His whole purpose for being here was to yell louder than anyone else.  Jackalope at least had a few interesting threads about rpgs, although they lagged far behind the other nonsense he was often on about.  However, I don't have the overall concern that any of them would be a problem that required the board to come together as a whole to fend off.  Admins and Mods are fully able to direct the board as they will.

To be clear SB, I was just drawing names. I vaguely remember you supporting banning CavScout and maybe Jackalope? Regardless, I was merely trying to clarify for you Sett's point as I felt you had (quite understandably) missed it entirely. In a way, this is the underlying part though, in that you would be one of those "lending their voice" to the call to ban someone. Part of the clique so to speak.

A big point I think folks are missing to would be Sett's issue with WalkerP's banning. This is the first case where someone was banned for their activity outside of RPG forum. At least I think so. Nox might hold that title as I seldom could bring myself to read any of his posts.

Also, in case it appears otherwise, I do not support Sett's conclusions nor his stance. I was merely trying to clarify and as far as that goes, Sett may come in here and tell me I am way off base.

Quote from: HinterWelt;296265To be clear SB, I was just drawing names. I vaguely remember you supporting banning CavScout and maybe Jackalope? Regardless, I was merely trying to clarify for you Sett's point as I felt you had (quite understandably) missed it entirely. In a way, this is the underlying part though, in that you would be one of those "lending their voice" to the call to ban someone. Part of the clique so to speak.

Sure, I get that.  I just wanted to make sure people understood that you were citing examples.  So, when the proletariat rises up, I am not counted among the bourgeois.  :)

QuoteA big point I think folks are missing to would be Sett's issue with WalkerP's banning. This is the first case where someone was banned for their activity outside of RPG forum. At least I think so. Nox might hold that title as I seldom could bring myself to read any of his posts.

I wasn't entirely pleased with WalkerP either, but he did keep going on about a rather specious 'thought crime' issue.  One related to pedophilia, no less, which he had refused to let go.  Now, I was part of that conversation, but after it was closed, I recall imploring WalkerP to just let it drop in the new thread.

QuoteAlso, in case it appears otherwise, I do not support Sett's conclusions nor his stance. I was merely trying to clarify and as far as that goes, Sett may come in here and tell me I am way off base.

I suspected you weren't supporting Sett's position.

Quote from: HinterWelt;296235It is not about Kyle. It is about the attitude presented by Kyle and propagated in others, that is, the sense that "My post count is high*/I am one of Pundit's supporters/I am a REAL RPGer" and there fore they can call for the banning of people premptively.

Bill, you're way off mark here. As I responded to that lying scumbag, there have always been calls for bannings, started by a diverse range of voices since the beginning of this site. The only thing that's changed is that people have been actually banned. If Sett was sincere in questioning the banning of certain posters, he should make an argument for their unbanning, instead of engaging in his usual, deceptive style of "debating".

*It was kyle who suggested that post count be removed.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Settembrini;296134And those people are in the upswing, they feel they have power over who may post here. And the sad part is: It´s proven that they have that power.

I don't think so. I was against the banning of walkerp, for example. But as Pundit noted in his usual kind way, he doesn't take my advice on these matters.

Pundit thrives on opposition, it's nine-tenths of his online persona's schtick. He presents himself as the Lone Voice Of Truth Against The Heckling Crowd. If you want to influence him to do something, the wisest way would be to loudly insist on the opposite. I don't think anyone's been sneaky enough to do that so far.

Quote from: BenoistMost of us here believe in free speech but also believe that acting like a dick means you're not acting as a responsible individual, and thus you open yourself to sanction.

Free speech about rpgs here on therpgsite.

I mean, members of parliament have free speech, but if one stands up and starts talking about how his wife won't swallow after a blowjob, he'll be suspended from parliament - not because parliament has no free speech, but because the free speech is there for a particular purpose, to further expression of political ideas.

Or - I'm Jewish, and any place of worship is a public place. But I don't go to a Catholic church, sit in the front row and then at the moment of communion stand up and yell, "you're worshipping a dead guy on a stick!" On the one hand, it's a public place and we all have freedom of speech; on the other, why go to a place solely to stir shit?

There exist certain places where certain talk needs to be done freely, and other talk is at best irrelevant, and at worst disruptive.

The people banned usually didn't have much to say about rpgs, they were just here to talk politics or abuse people. Where they sometimes had something to say about rpgs, like walkerp, that's where their bannings were somewhat controversial.

Quote from: RPGPunditthe fact that Kyle might want this place to be one that bans people on the basis of who he doesn't get along with

Now you know that's not true.

I don't get along with Aos, but there's no way he should be banned. I thought walkerp was an utter cocksmock, but he should not have been banned. I get along alright with droog, but given he rarely talks about rpgs and just snipes at people, probably he should be banned. And so on.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, kyle has always said stuff like this, I´m not sure of this.

It's true. It's ultimately the reason for my permaban from rpg.net. I questioned the moderation. I supported them when I thought they were right, and criticised them when I thought they were wrong. They enjoyed the support but not the criticism, too egotistical to know those are the flipsides of the same coin, the coin of reasoned consideration of things.

Quote from: SettembriniNow the atmosphere is one were certain people idle around waiting when the next person comes over they can ban.

Well, actually some of us are here to talk about rpgs.

Unlike you.

You never come here to talk about rpgs, only to talk about how the place is run. This is what always fucked people off about Seanchai, from rpg.net Trouble Tickets days till today.

Quote from: HinterWeltIt is the culture of entitlement as it takes hold, as it makes its presence felt.

Yes, I believe we are entitled to not share our company with people enthusiastically endorsing paedophilia, threatening mass murder or murder of individuals on the board, and so on.

Lastly, I would like to point out the irony of a believer in unfettered free speech titling his thread after a subforum of rpg.net.

Quote from: David R;296289Bill, you're way off mark here. As I responded to that lying scumbag, there have always been calls for bannings, started by a diverse range of voices since the beginning of this site. The only thing that's changed is that people have been actually banned. If Sett was sincere in questioning the banning of certain posters, he should make an argument for their unbanning, instead of engaging in his usual, deceptive style of "debating".

*It was kyle who suggested that post count be removed.

Regards,
David R

David,
Emphasis mine. I think that is the root of the issue. If people were just screaming for banning into the void, this would not be an issue (it is not in my opinion either way). The issue, as I understand it, is that there appears to be a cadre of influence on Pundit;i.e. a group that calls for banning and can reasonably expect it to happen. Again, I should note this is not what I have observed but am trying to represent Sett's position in good faith.

The second part of it is that Pundit also allows his ego to interfere with impartial bannings of law breakers. Sett does admit that some few should be banned. This is nothing new, there are many who think Piundit should ban more just as many believe he should ban fewer. Even his supporters do not agree on this point.

As to my own position on bannings, I think someone up thread put it nicely when they said Pundit the Mod is very different from Pundit the Poster. It makes for a confusing environment in a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of way.

ETA: I do not think it is about individual bannings. It is about how the bannings came about, the environment where they came about. As he said, and I will give him this, when he was around for them he fought against the bannings. I think this thread is an abstract of those banning to the point of discussing what has occurred to make them acceptable and welcome.

Quote from: HinterWelt;296295The issue, as I understand it, is that there appears to be a cadre of influence on Pundit;i.e. a group that calls for banning and can reasonably expect it to happen. Again, I should note this is not what I have observed but am trying to represent Sett's position in good faith.

Oh, I get Sett's position. It's just that I think, he's coming from a very dishonest place. Posters like Seanchai, droog and Aos, making similar claims , I take in good faith. Look through their posts and you will see, that they have been against all the bannings. Sett's position, though, is a complete lie. He knows very well that nobody influences the Pundit. God knows he's tried. I have no idea why he is starting this up now.

QuoteThe second part of it is that Pundit also allows his ego to interfere with impartial bannings of law breakers. Sett does admit that some few should be banned. This is nothing new, there are many who think Piundit should ban more just as many believe he should ban fewer. Even his supporters do not agree on this point.

I don't think the Pundit has that many supporters, truth be told. There are many who like the light moderation of this site, but as you have said before, they are here in spite of him not because of him. I have had my issues with him before - extremely public ones - but as far as bannings are concerned, it very rarely happens without much consideration. Nobody has been banned because someone has called for it.

QuoteETA: I do not think it is about individual bannings. It is about how the bannings came about, the environment where they came about. As he said, and I will give him this, when he was around for them he fought against the bannings. I think this thread is an abstract of those banning to the point of discussing what has occurred to make them acceptable and welcome.

Perhaps. But he has done his own share witchhunting. He has attempted to curb free speech on this board when it suited his agenda. I have no sympathy for his position esp when it comes from such a dishonest place. How many times has he started this shit ?

Regards,
David R

I think we should ban Sett.  I'm going to bring this up at the next secret theRPGsite true roleplayers meeting.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;296290I get along alright with droog, but given he rarely talks about rpgs and just snipes at people, probably he should be banned.

Steady on!

Quote from: KrakaJak;296250The drama here confounds me. Eveybody needs to quit being a whiny bitch and get to some game discussion.

A Winner Is Jak.

Though I totally lose points for sitting here and reading this.

Old. Fucking. Shit.  Supposed to be about RPGS, and just discussing bans and Mod style and other such crap. Blah blah blah, Pundit banned my buttbuddy. WAH!
 
 If you shut the fuck up about it and just talk about RPGs, it would become less of a fucking issue. In fact, I would gather that Pundit's moderating style would also become a non issue than. Fucking a, your Nerd Wars are pathetic.

@jrients:

Look how two bannings started:

QuoteAs you know, these last few days we've been debating the future of political discussion on theRPGsite. At the same time, the Admins have been having some pretty intense discussions about two posters who have received more complaints than pretty much anyone in the history of this forum.

On the subject of politics, you will be able to see that the conclusion of the public consultation was quite clear that people here still do want to talk politics. It was less clear as to whether or not they wanted to keep a specific Politics subforum.

Now, I was never very sure of the politics subforum in the first place, myself. I agreed to its creation because at that time, it was the elections, there were more political threads than usual, and.. guess who?... Cavscout and Jackalope were turning many of those threads into flamewars that drowned out non-political threads on OT.

However, the voting was very close, and one can argue that the Politics subforum creates a separation that keeps that certain type of discussion away from other areas. [snip]

So, it all started with the "Mods" reacting to complaints by other users.

I think the real problem lies with those who complain. This problem is immensely blown up by the fact that it was acted upon. Sure: Reluctantly, and only after Pundit baited them into into a pissing match with himself.

You know if your so unhappy with the "conditions" here. Being that you will never effect any change to the apparent statis quo. Why dont you just return to your self imposed exile. I think everyone including you will be happier.

QuoteAmong so many conflicting ideas and so many different perspectives, the honest man is confused and distressed and the skeptic becomes wicked ... Since one must take sides, one might as well choose the side that is victorious, the side which devastates, loots, and burns. Considering the alternative, it is better to eat than to be eaten.
Letter to his brother, as quoted in The Age of Napoleon (2002) by J. Christopher Herold, p. 8

Well, that´s what I´m about to do. I´m just wrapping things up, to make sure my points got across.

And Lo, the mute lectured the deaf.
After which, or perhaps during, everyone had a good long nap and life went on much as before.

Summary for those who are too busy to read the whole thread:

JimDaWhacko: I'm ready to go postal and after that I'll rape your gnomes
Kyle: Hmmm seems like a troll and a rabid one, let's put him down or we're going to have that fucking noise in our ears for months and months
Settembrini: this forum has a parody of freedom of speech. Pundit is controlled by secret factions and blablabla Kyle is bad blablablabla I was right being on exile blablabla
Others: no no Pundit is right to kick sorry asses sometimes when the wind is right and the tide is high blablabla
Pundy: you're all pathetic and I have the biggest balls blablabla
Others: Go back to exile Sett blablabla
JimDaWhacko: Pundit I'll kill your puppy !
Pundy: k thx bye * Jim gets sucked in outer space *

Which basically means Kyle was right and anticipated a couple of days in advance

Quote from: Settembrini;296363Well, that´s what I´m about to do. I´m just wrapping things up, to make sure my points got across.

Your self-imposed exile got that point across much more succinctly.

boulet, that was beautiful. Did you know you can sort the threads by number of replies (http://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount)? You should do a summary of all the threads over 200 posts! It could be an ongoing column for you.

Holy Guacemole, Jim Profit is banned?
If so:

q.e.d.

Goodnight everyone.

Quote from: Settembrini;296393Holy Guacemole, Jim Profit is banned?
If so:

q.e.d.

Goodnight everyone.

Yes, Sett, he was banned for the very reason you said someone should be banned:  promotion of illegal activities.

Quote from: Settembrini;296360@jrients:

Look how two bannings started:

So, it all started with the "Mods" reacting to complaints by other users.

I think the real problem lies with those who complain. This problem is immensely blown up by the fact that it was acted upon. Sure: Reluctantly, and only after Pundit baited them into into a pissing match with himself.

Ohhhh, I get it now!

You're against democracy!! I should have figured.
Your issue is with that I try to listen to people and take into consideration what the majority actually want; but you don't want to say that you're living out some kind of Nietzchian gay-fantasy where what you want is an Iron-Fisted Superman dominating your life with the force of his will; so instead you try to paint it as being some tiny minority who are somehow hijacking the process.

I know you Germans haven't had democracy for all that long (and half of you for even less than the rest), so perhaps you don't get it yet: The danger is not from letting minorities, or groups, or parties (the Kyle Aaron Party or what have you) have a voice; in fact that IS the very definition of democracy.  The danger is if these minorities were to have actual tangible physical power over the majority; that's what happened in Rpg.net for example.
But here, where I do consult with the public (something that you apparently hated from day one, thinking I should instead be your fantasy Ubermensch Absolutist), it is to hear their voices, freely, and then choose to act on it or not based on the "Constitution" of this site's mission statements.  Which, again, have been cleared from day one, and never stated "we aren't going to ban anyone, even imbecilic dipshits who threaten to kill the Admin's family and go on a shooting rampage at WoTC headquarters".

I hope this clears things up for you.

RPGPundit

Quote from: shalvayez;296320Fucking a, your Nerd Wars are pathetic.

I am so tempted to make a sign out of that phrase and post it at the game store.

ON TOPIC: Sett, you're just wrong damnit. Plus, you disappear too much after you've whined about something.  I don't like everything Kyle says either - but at least I see him post every week and for the most part its usuall about game os kind of gaming-relared.

This Jim Profit guy ? A likely troll eho is more probably goiung to get mega-stupid at one point and get banned or disappear. Not worth stressing about in some ways.


 RPG Pundit:Over the course of the past 2 years or soo  he seems like he has gone out of his way to be pretty fair most of the time.  Yeah he can be an asshole at time, but he admits this and he can be a fair and reasonable asshole when he has to be.
In many ways I know he's alright enough that I know I'd have a good time gaming with the guy. Hell, I'd even know I'd buy him a drink if we were both at the gaming convention.

Settembrini - why don't you talk more about TRAVELLER again? You were fun to read then.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;296400Settembrini - why don't you talk more about TRAVELLER again? You were fun to read then.


- Ed C.

Thats just it Ed, he here to whine. Not discuss RPG's. Besides no talks about Battletech enough for his taste anyways. If your reading this Sett and havent gone into exile yet prove me wrong.

Quote from: Settembrini;296393Holy Guacemole, Jim Profit is banned?
If so:

q.e.d.

Goodnight everyone.

Yes, he is banned for (among other things) threatening to kill WotC employees and forum members. Either you were not paying attention (in which case you need to get a clue before posting threads like this), or you were but didn't care (which means you are batshit insane). Pick one.

Now that its mostly over.....
(I miss so much when actually get 8 hours worth of sleep)

Any Chance the Jim Profit whacko was a sock puppet foir a prvious forum jerk we've met here or there before . OR could this be the actual perso of someone who has had a peveious person on here or at TBP?

Third possibility: Or a new guy for here that started out posting stupid and stayed that way.

Just wondering....


- Ed C.

i think its pretty obvious which his rants fall under jong.

tbh im kinda bored of this whole pointless thread, i come here to talk about and read about rpg's not waste tiem reading the prattlings of a self imposed exile who seems to like talking in circles.

Quote from: RPGPundit;296397Ohhhh, I get it now!

You're against democracy!!
RPGPundit

Fuck off, Pundit.

You are argumenting in a very dishonest way. I just quoted verbatim from a post of yours. Thereby refuting the claim that complaints allegedly don´t  matter. And that you don´t listen to them.

You were actually VERY proud of (allegedly) NOT listening to people,  you were proud of being the "benevolent dictator" you style your online persona after. Now you sling such shit at me and claim yourself to be a democrat as owner f this site? Step back and think, how many examples will I be able to find where you said the exact OPPOSITE?

No, if there is anyone with a Nietzschean bent, it´s you.

The shamus is the foundation of fascism, and this mindset starts small. Those who run to a "mod" are the internet echo of to the mob against which civilization was built.
What I´m saying is that the atmosphere is getting friendly for shamusses and blockwarts around here. It´s unrelaxed and poisonous.

You analyzed this when you saw it in RPG.Net, and just upthread in Kyle.

I have no intent on entering a pissing match with you. I thought a calm debate might open some peoples eyes. This has now become impossible. Apologize for the last post, or endure the consequences.

Re: Jim Profit
Huh? Just because he´s rhetorically not as capable as some others, he gets banned for hyperbole? He posted KITTEN pics, for christ´s sake. I´m told that´s 4chan-speak for "teh funney".
Man, Jong, when did they start to make South Americans/Coreans that have less a sense of humour than Germans?

EDIT to ADD: In case there is any question in regards to my vision, I´m for the free marketplace of ideas. And I don´t think Jim Profit, WalkerP etc. ever

- challenged the ability to exchange ideas for others
- "monopolize ideas" (prevent others form talking about RPG ideas)
- remove responsibiltiy for their own actions (malevolent sockpuppeting)
- did anything illegal on this site which had endangered the existance of this
  site

As we all know now, Pundit is NOT for the free marketplace of ideas, but for a "safe environment". Oh, and I run my own forum with exactly my ideals, have been doing it for some years now. I never banned any human (I deleted Spambots,obviously). So don´t tell me it doesn´t work.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;296441i think its pretty obvious which his rants fall under jong.

tbh im kinda bored of this whole pointless thread, i come here to talk about and read about rpg's not waste tiem reading the prattlings of a self imposed exile who seems to like talking in circles.

Why then, praytell, did you even click on this thread. Your false "I don´t care" attitude is painting a rather ugly picture of your mental abilities.

That goes for anybody who said something like the quoted in this thread.

Quote from: Settembrini;296445You are argumenting in a very dishonest way. I just quoted verbatim from a post of yours. Thereby refuting the claim that complaints allegedly don´t  matter. And that you don´t listen to them.

Seriously dude, the only thing that you 'refuted' is that you are thinking clearly.  You have refuted nothing in my eyes, and probably most members of this site.

Quote from: Settembrini;296445Those who run to a "mod" are the internet echo of to the mob against which civilization was built.

Huh?  WTF are you talking about?  'Against which civilization was built?'  

Quote from: Settembrini;296445Re: Jim Profit
Huh? Just because he´s rhetorically not as capable as some others, he gets banned for hyperbole? He posted KITTEN pics, for christ´s sake. I´m told that´s 4chan-speak for "teh funney".

Dude, did you even read his posts?  Or did you just look at the cute pictures?

Quote from: Settembrini;296445And I don´t think Jim Profit ever

- did anything illegal on this site which had endangered the existance of this
  site

Again, did you even read his posts?  Maybe making death threats is legal in Germany, and that's why you think he's done nothing illegal.  However, here in the United States, it is illegal to make death threats.

Let me put it this way:

The rule of the mob is a bad thing.
Elightened men built a system I shorthandedly called "civilization" to save us from the tyrranny of the mob.

And further down the stream of history, some other men built what is called "democracy". A foundation of this "democracy" is the protection of minorities against the rule of the majority. Freedoom of speech & press are the foundations of those, and in consequence of democracy.

So, either there is democracy here, then there must be freedom of speech. Or this here is a "benevolent dictatorship" as Pundit so often has said. But then it´s obviuosly not a democracy.

Re: jim profit; I don´t think what he did was endangering the existance of this site in any way. I don´t know about Uruguay, but nothing that Jim said would be held against the owners of this site. Actually, if legal problems were the REAL REASON for banning him, it would be very important to DELETE the messages. Like, if someone posted a child porn-picture. That´s illegal and threatening the existance of this site. Don´t be inane, drohem.

Quote from: Settembrini;296452Re: jim profit; I don´t think what he did was endangering the existance of this site in any way. I don´t know about Uruguay, but nothing that Jim said would be held against the owners of this site. Actually, if legal problems were the REAL REASON for banning him, it would be very important to DELETE the messages. Like, if someone posted a child porn-picture. That´s illegal and threatening the existance of this site. Don´t be inane, drohem.

Deleting posts would actually be called 'tampering with evidence' or possibly 'aiding and abetting'.  If those threats waft their way back to any kind of authorities, getting rid of them would be bad news indeed.

Then it can´t be illegal to publish them. And publishing Jim Profit´s utterances is what Pundit is legally accountable for.
So either he did publish something illegal, and did not retract the illegal post, or it wasn´t illegal, and than that´s a bogus argument.

So praytell, why was JimProfit actually banned?

Quote from: Drohem;296449Again, did you even read his posts?  Maybe making death threats is legal in Germany, and that's why you think he's done nothing illegal.  However, here in the United States, it is illegal to make death threats.

Thats it Drohem in Germany theres an agency called Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien. (Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons) Now this agency obviously doesnt censor discussion boards, but this sort of non sense Profit was spouting would never be printed in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Would it Sett? Surely his comments would fall under,

 § 18 Paragraph 1 JuSchG (Youth Protection Law) defines jugendgefährdend as that which is harmful "to the development of children or young people or to their education as autonomous and socially-compatible individuals". Media that are "immoral, brutalizing, or which provoke violence, crime or racial hatred" are named as examples of this.

Under § 15 Paragraph 2 JSchG, certain types of content are subject to restricted distribution by virtue of the law on account of their obvious harm to young people, without the need to add them to the Index. These include:

content which is proscribed by the criminal law such as Volksverhetzung (incitement to hate or violence against a group of people), instructions on how to commit crime, glorification or trivialization of violence, incitement to racial hatred and pornography.
content which glorifies war.
content which depicts minors in an unnatural/harmful situation

I find it amusing that you rail against the supposed lack of free speech on a RPG discussion site. One, I might add that has the most lenient Moderation policies on the net that I have found. Perhaps you should redirect your energies of trumpeting free speech to your own country. It would certainly more useful, and could have actual results. As opposed to here where your more and more inane ramblings become ignored and dismissed by the masses.

Quote from: Settembrini;296455Then it can´t be illegal to publish them. And publishing Jim Profit´s utterances is what Pundit is legally accountable for.
So either he did publish something illegal, and did not retract the illegal post, or it wasn´t illegal, and than that´s a bogus argument.

So praytell, why was JimProfit actually banned?

Yes, it can still be illegal to publish something.  Any good Neo-Nazi literature in your bookstores over there?  No?  Might that be because it is illegal to publish them in Germany, and anyone connected to said publishing would be in a heap of trouble?

You are really on the opposite side of 'sense' at this point.

Quote from: StormBringer;296459Yes, it can still be illegal to publish something.  Any good Neo-Nazi literature in your bookstores over there?  No?  Might that be because it is illegal to publish them in Germany, and anyone connected to said publishing would be in a heap of trouble?

You are really on the opposite side of 'sense' at this point.

Again, publishing Jim Profits utterances CAN´T be illegal. Because they are not deleted or taken from public sight. EDIT: But you are right, there are things that are illegal to publish. I said so upthread, if you care to check it out. So no disagreement over that.

And making a "death threat" is hardly illegal anyways. Especially in a thread with kittens in it, or on a site who´s owners wear "this machine kills fascists" badges, or swing the Spiked Baseballbats of Whatever.

Oh, and Ronin: I did, and was succesful. I even helped changing the leadership of the largest german forum, resulting in a way more open policy. And I run a ban-free/mod-free forum myself, the "Isle of Phaiakia" so to say.

Quote from: Settembrini;296393.

Goodnight everyone.

You shouldn't tease.

Haha, you´re right! Wrong figure of speech. What I wanted to say: "then help you god"

Quote from: Settembrini;296462Oh, and Ronin: I did, and was succesful. I even helped changing the leadership of the largest german forum, resulting in a way more open policy. And I run a ban-free/mod-free forum myself, the "I sle of Phaiakia" so to say.

I was refering to real life not a forum. But good for you if you effected a change for the better there. But you know it wont happen here. Not to mention, theres really no need.

Oh I have a question for you though. You say you run a ban-free/mod-free forum. What would happen if people started posting National Socialist material there?

Quote from: Ronin;296468Oh I have a question for you though. You say you run a ban-free/mod-free forum. What would happen if people started posting National Socialist material there?

You know the answer: I´d delete that stuff and delete their accounts. I never said anything else. It´s just upthread and the post you just cited. But praytell: what kind of illegal activity did jimProfit, WalkerP, Cavscout, etc engage in?

EDIT: Oh, and i do it in real life, too. But those things start small. If you can´t have free speech in a fucking RPG forum...

Quote from: Settembrini;296470You know the answer: I´d delete that stuff and delete their accounts. I never said anything else. It´s just upthread and the post you just cited. But praytell: what kind of illegal activity did jimProfit, WalkerP, Cavscout, etc engage in?

EDIT: Oh, and i do it in real life, too. But those things start small. If you can´t have free speech in a fucking RPG forum...

Oh so you would conceal the evidence, and cover up for these individuals? Not present this to the proper authorities so they could be dealt with? You would further their cause by leaving them unpunished? Interesting.
Then you would delete their accounts. Doesnt that realy amount to a banning?

Well I cant speak for the WalkerP, or Cavscout. But what Jim Profit did was make terroristic threats, and threaten to do bodily harm, possibly resulting in death.

Terroristic threats, are you serious? BTW, it´s NOT illegal to publish terroristic threats! CNN does so every day!

Quote from: Settembrini;296452Don´t be inane, drohem.

Right back at you, Sett. :)

Quote from: Ronin;296458Thats it Drohem in Germany theres an agency called Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien.

Yeah, my common sense tells me that what Jim Profit typed here would be illegal in Germany as well, being a civilized western power.  However, since I have no experience with German civil or criminal law, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

QuoteAnd making a "death threat" is hardly illegal anyways. Especially in a thread with kittens in it,

AFAIK, it is illegal in the US. What is more, the Virginia Tech shooter posted similar threats like these before his killing spree, same as the recent incident in Germany.

Quoteor on a site who´s owners wear "this machine kills fascists" badges,

This is a cultural reference, which you are completely missing.

Quoteor swing the Spiked Baseballbats of Whatever.

Ditto.

Quote from: Settembrini;296455Then it can´t be illegal to publish them. And publishing Jim Profit´s utterances is what Pundit is legally accountable for.

From theRPGsite's terms of service, which you agree to abide by when you register as a member:

"All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of theRPGSite, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message."

Hell, that´s why it´s no problem for the existance of this forum!

And seriously Jong: I DO know the "cultural references". But do you honestly, deep down in your heart, believe JimProfit meant what he said LITERALLY? Or wasn´t he using a figure of speech? I rather think so.

MAKING a death threat might be illegal. But PUBLISHING it? No!

QuoteBut do you honestly, deep down in your heart, believe JimProfit meant what he said LITERALLY?

Do you honestly know what lies deep down in JimProfit's heart?

In any case, have fun in your little Sprockets fantasy world.

Quote from: Settembrini;296487But do you honestly, deep down in your heart, believe JimProfit meant what he said LITERALLY? Or wasn´t he using a figure of speech? I rather think so.

Personally, and in all seriousness, I would prefer to err on the side of caution.

Seriously, I get your point about group think and mob rule, although I don't agree with it as it pertains to this site, its members, nor RPGPundit.

However, you are just making yourself look foolish when you deny that Jim Profit's utterances crossed the line in civilized society.  Seriously, if you pursue this course further, you will only lessen yourself and any credibility you have at the moment.

Quote from: JongWK;296490Do you honestly know what lies deep down in JimProfit's heart?

In any case, have fun in your little Sprockets fantasy world.

Just for that, you must touch his monkey! Touch it! Touch the monkey!

Quote from: Settembrini;296476Terroristic threats, are you serious? BTW, it´s NOT illegal to publish terroristic threats! CNN does so every day!

I dont recall CNN every saying they are going to go to a specific persons house and murder their family. Reporting news is one thing. Making a specific threat against and specific person or persons is different.

Quote from: JongWK;296490Do you honestly know what lies deep down in JimProfit's heart?

No. That´s why there is free speech, that you are trampling on right now. But it doesn´t need to be about JimProfit. Let´s say it´s about WalkerP. What did he do?

Tell me.

Or Cavscout.

Or Jackalope.

What illegal things did they do?

Really, I started this thread because of Kyle´s utterances. And they were premature anyway, even if you buy that "he did something illegal! O noes!"-line. So your arguments mean nothing, even if they were right, which they aren´t. It´s not endangering the existing of this site to let Jim Profit post, I´m 100% sure of this. It´s an excuse for banning someone you don´t like for whatever reason.

Quote from: Ronin;296496I dont recall CNN every saying they are going to go to a specific persons house and murder their family. Reporting news is one thing. Making a specific threat against and specific person or persons is different.

So why is it not deleted?

Quote from: Settembrini;296487MAKING a death threat might be illegal. But PUBLISHING it? No!

Thats like saying in your country that preaching National Socialist values is illegal. But not publishing them. While you know that is very untrue. It is the same her in the US (and I image a great number of other countries) that one cannot publish death threats. Theres a difference between saying go die, or I wish you would die. Than saying I am going to kill you.

Man, are you dense! If it was illegal, and it was the cause of the bans, why is it still being PUBLISHED as of now!?

Quote from: Settembrini;296498So why is it not deleted?

Because you dont delete evidence. Thats called aiding and abetting. That would be commiting a crime to cover up a crime. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Quote from: Ronin;296474Oh so you would conceal the evidence, and cover up for these individuals? Not present this to the proper authorities so they could be dealt with? You would further their cause by leaving them unpunished? Interesting.
Then you would delete their accounts. Doesnt that realy amount to a banning?

I'm still waiting for an answer.

The illegal part is the utterance of the death threat, not maintaining the publication of that threat. Its not illegal for CNN to report that Osama Bin Laden made a death threat; it WOULD be illegal for, say, Glen Beck to threaten to take a shotgun into the white house to "waste the president" or something along those lines.

The fact that you're actually defending this asshole, when its obvious that there's no way that his statement can be interpreted as a "figure of speech" (its not something like "someone ought to break your kneecap"; its saying "you mess with me and I'll kill your family", which is quite different and can't really be interpreted "metaphorically") shows just how far in outer space your line of thinking really is.

It makes you completely ridiculous, when you can't even tell the difference between a free speech and a literal threat (however empty or not that threat might be).

RPGPundit

Huh? I never thought Jim Profit made a death threat! I just have proven that you guys are wrong within your OWN logic!

And what where the illegal activities of all the other banned ones? Fuck, you can´t say, because there aren´t any. Bigots.

Man, sad times.

And I notice: No apology. Okay Pundit. This has been the last straw.

Fuck. Off.

Quote from: Settembrini;296505Huh? I never thought Jim Profit made a death threat! I just have proven that you guys are wrong within your OWN logic!

Dude, I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt at every turn, but it's abundantly clear with these statements that you are an idiot.

Quote from: Settembrini;296445I have no intent on entering a pissing match with you. I thought a calm debate might open some peoples eyes. This has now become impossible. Apologize for the last post, or endure the consequences.

Quote from: Settembrini;296505And I notice: No apology. Okay Pundit. This has been the last straw.

Fuck. Off.

This guy is funny, like a toddler tantrum kind of fun.

Quote from: Settembrini;296505Huh? I never thought Jim Profit made a death threat! I just have proven that you guys are wrong within your OWN logic!

And what where the illegal activities of all the other banned ones? Fuck, you can´t say, because there aren´t any. Bigots.

Man, sad times.

And I notice: No apology. Okay Pundit. This has been the last straw.

Fuck. Off.

Are you leaving?
I find that hard to believe.

Quote from: Settembrini;296505Huh? I never thought Jim Profit made a death threat! I just have proven that you guys are wrong within your OWN logic!

And what where the illegal activities of all the other banned ones? Fuck, you can´t say, because there aren´t any. Bigots.

Man, sad times.

And I notice: No apology. Okay Pundit. This has been the last straw.

Fuck. Off.

Wow you must have only looked at the pictures of the kittys on the post in question. Because if you read it. You would have read the death threat. You call me dense? Those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

Quote from: Aos;296512Are you leaving?
I find that hard to believe.

Well for now anyways. I mean you cant spend your whole day on the internet, proving your ignorance. You got to get out in the world and share your ignorance with everybody.

Stop goading him; think of the consequences, man!

Quote from: Ronin;296514Well for now anyways. I mean you can't spend your whole day on the internet, proving your ignorance. You got to get out in the world and share your ignorance with everybody.

Hear, Hear!
(while over there, there!?)

Thats the right kind of attitude!

Get out of the house. Maybe Spring has nice weather in your part of the world.
 Stop by a pub ...play darts or maybe chat up a young lady that lkooks bright or at least wears glasses. She might want to hear your brand ofignorance or feeling like playing teacher.

...and if you're already married please take what I said above as humorously as it was meant to be.

- Ed C.

Profit published death threats, both here and on his livejournal. From what I understand, that is being currently investigated by WoTC, and I would not want to impede any such investigation by removing evidence of what he had posted.

He made a personal threat against me here, and posted a threat on his livejournal, posting my blog address and stating (and I quote): "Kill this man. Findout where he lives, and kill him. Make an example out of him".

If I knew how exactly I could get him investigated for that without it being a gigantic hassle for me (not living in the states, and not particularly wanting to have to deal personally with U.S. law enforcement), I would. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to let me know.

RPGPundit

Profit published death threats, both here and on his livejournal. From what I understand, that is being currently investigated by WoTC, and I would not want to impede any such investigation by removing evidence of what he had posted.

He made a personal threat against me here, and posted a threat on his livejournal, posting my blog address and stating (and I quote): "Kill this man. Findout where he lives, and kill him. Make an example out of him".

If I knew how exactly I could get him investigated for that without it being a gigantic hassle for me (not living in the states, and not particularly wanting to have to deal personally with U.S. law enforcement), I would. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to let me know.

RPGPundit

You might start with the Sumbit a Crime Tip (https://tips.fbi.gov/) section of the FBI's homepage. If there is already an investigation about his comment about WotC. Your additional evidence/involvement could be helpful.

Sett: Brett has informed me that you've just changed your email address to a fake address, something that for technical reasons can't be allowed here (it creates interminable error messages), and your account would have to be banned if you persist.
Please change this back unless for some stupid reason you want to be banned on a technical reason. Please don't try to claim later that you've been "banned for your beliefs" or some bullshit like that.

From brett:

QuoteI just got an email undeliverable message. Settembrini changed his email to "fuck@nerdshack.com" which sounds bogus. Someone needs to contact him and set him straight - I don't have the time right now to get involved.

RPGPundit

Y'know it's funny. Sett was screaming bloody murder when he read the Poison'd AP. Shun them. Exile them. Rape fanboys. But when some cretin posts his postal fantasy and makes death threats.......he's perfectly fine with that. He says that he's no anarchist. That he understands that free speech here is about free speech with regards to rpgs, yet, Cavscout, Jackalope and walkerp were banned for things they said which had nothing to do with rpgs.

In fact all of them were topic banned from making OT comments. Cavscout of course played along but his true nature revealed itself when he begun stalking the Pundit on every thread making discussions nearly impossible.

Then he makes the dishonest argument that Jim Profit was joking, in a 4chan kind of way. Wtf, we don't accept Forge terminology here. We don't accept, tbp passive/aggresive BS over here, why the hell should we make room for the most vile kind of online discourse ?

I believe Sett thinks that he is the new Pundit. The old one is soft. Weak. Ready to be overthrown.

Regards,
David R

I just think that the overarching rule should be: "Don't be a dick", like Erik Mona was saying for the Paizo boards. What do you think?

something tells me he's doing this to play martyr, he wants to be banned and since pundit hasnt banned him he changed his email as a last despirate attempt at getting the ban so he can claim he was right all along...that guy has serious attention deficite issues somebody should give him a hug :)

Quote from: Settembrini;296487MAKING a death threat might be illegal. But PUBLISHING it? No!

In case anyone had any doubts -- Sett is mistaken.

It also bears repeating that you are subject to the laws of multiple jurisdictions AND the terms of use for multiple companies.  Even content that may be borderline legal could be prohibited by your ISP, web host, etc.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf I knew how exactly I could get him investigated for that without it being a gigantic hassle for me (not living in the states, and not particularly wanting to have to deal personally with U.S. law enforcement), I would. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to let me know.

There is the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint Center (http://www.ic3.gov/) (file your complaint online)

You can use an IP Address Lookup Service (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl) to find where someone is in the world, and contact the Local FBI Office (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm).

Quote from: Benoist;296592I just think that the overarching rule should be: "Don't be a dick", like Erik Mona was saying for the Paizo boards. What do you think?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

To me, there is a very clear divide between two groups of banned users: the first, including Jackalope, Dominus Nox, CavScout and now the rightfully short-lived Jim Profit, have rightfully been hit with the banhammer for disrupting the site and bringing down the level of discourse. I support and will defend these decisions.

However, the "disruption rule" has also been used as a sort of rubber paragraph that can be used against legitimate users whose views are unpopular with the administration (specifically RPGPundit). walkerp's case was the most straightforward, and I maintain that banning him was an abuse of power, removing a user who had been a productive and valuable contributor in this community. The same goes for seanchai's temp ban, and now I see droog has received something similar.

This not only punishes legitimate and long-standing users in this community in an arbitrary manner, but it also undermines the legitimacy of banning future users on the offense of disruption. The abuse or erratic application of rules and technicalities inevitably results in their weakening both as a deterrent against future infractions and as a "foundation" of the site in general.

Quote from: Melan;296676The same goes for seanchai's temp ban, and now I see droog has received something similar.

What did droog do?

I have no idea, but it says "Banned" under his user name.

Quote from: Melan;296689I have no idea, but it says "Banned" under his user name.

I believe those are just custom titles.

If that's the case, it is seriously uncool on droog's part and I offer my apologies to the moderators for suggesting they banned him.

Haha. :D

See? This is the shit I have to put up with...

RPGPundit

I just wanted ya'll to know that this thread is done ate up with stupid.

Quote from: boulet;296510This guy is funny, like a toddler tantrum kind of fun.

A retarded toddler way.

Quote from: Aos;296512Are you leaving?
I find that hard to believe.

Nah. Won't happen.

I've had big clashes with the Pundit, but I've always admitted that he sticks to his word when it comes to moderation. Also, I've always said that, in a privately owned site, all that freedom of speech stuff is inmaterial. This is an extension of Pundit's home, so to speak, so he can allow or disallow any topic or person just at his whim, and he has every goddamn right to do so. He chooses to let people speak freely on many topics, and call him and each other on our bullshit, which is cool. But HE HAS NOT ANY DUTY TO DO SO. And I acknowledge that.

If that JimProfit was making that kind of threats, he deserved a swift kick in the balls and a ban. Fucking period. It's great to be able to say something like "[Poster X] you're wrong and also a fucktard" but trying to compare that with death threats (or pedo propaganda or whatever) is idiotic beyond comparison.

Look, the usual Settembrini way.

This topic doesn't deserve more discussion IMO, David R.

PS: Out of curiosity, can someone PM me the link to that glorious moment of Profit's been banned?

Quote from: Imperator;296766Also, I've always said that, in a privately owned site, all that freedom of speech stuff is inmaterial. This is an extension of Pundit's home, so to speak, so he can allow or disallow any topic or person just at his whim, and he has every goddamn right to do so. He chooses to let people speak freely on many topics, and call him and each other on our bullshit, which is cool. But HE HAS NOT ANY DUTY TO DO SO. And I acknowledge that.

Well said, Sir!  I agree 100%.

Quote from: RPGPundit;296727See? This is the shit I have to put up with...

RPGPundit

Yeah, we noticed.

 Hang in there tho, Pundit-dude.

Wouldn't be as much fun without you running the place.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;296810Yeah, we noticed.

 Hang in there tho, Pundit-dude.

Wouldn't be as much fun without you running the place.


- Ed C.

I approve of this message. +1

Quote from: RPGPundit;296727See? This is the shit I have to put up with...

RPGPundit

I have now changed the settings to prevent users from setting their title to "Banned," to avoid this specific type of trolling.  Variations remain allowed, but that specific combination is now disabled.

Quote from: Aos;296512Are you leaving? I find that hard to believe.

His previous attempts were indeed...tepid. It's how you can tell the attention-loving posers from the real deal: one leaves when they say they're going to and one leaves and announces they're going to leave. Repeatedly. Ah, well.

Seanchai

Well, usually those who leave don't announce it at all.

Think back a year or two to some of the posters we used to see around regularly, maybe look at an old thread to refresh your memory. Lots just go without a word. fonkaygary, John Morrow, Tyberious Funk - just slipped away.

When they loudly announce it, I can't help but wonder if they're hoping we'll beg them to stay.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;297046Well, usually those who leave don't announce it at all.

Think back a year or two to some of the posters we used to see around regularly, maybe look at an old thread to refresh your memory. Lots just go without a word. fonkaygary, John Morrow, Tyberious Funk - just slipped away.

When they loudly announce it, I can't help but wonder if they're hoping we'll beg them to stay.

Think I saw John Morrow post something fairly recently in the Role playing section.


- Ed C.

Quote from: David R;296090I don't believe you Sett. I know of the socalled ban threat/exchange between AM and OHT you are refering to. Anyone can look it up and see, how you are taking things out of context. Christ, it wasn't even a threat. If you got any other evidence of rampant ModThuggery, please share.

Regards,
David R

Huh, i miss all the fun. I think i must type in invisible text along with what i can see.

Quote from: One Horse Town;298205Huh, i miss all the fun. I think i must type in invisible text along with what i can see.

Then go ahead and ban me, prick!

Quote from: StormBringer;298207Then go ahead and ban me, prick!

hdsoihfnb vjuygrkjb.dsvnfkufhyvljv n.k!!!

Kyle is a well informed poster who often has interesting things to say.

When I disagree with him, as I often do, I say so.  It works for me, I suggest if others disagree with him on a given topic they try likewise.

Or they could offer him a beef injection. He's always eager.

Quote from: One Horse Town;298210hdsoihfnb vjuygrkjb.dsvnfkufhyvljv n.k!!!

Hold on, my Orphan Annie decoder ring is under a stack of books, it will take a minute to figure this one out...

Ovaltine??

Quote from: boulet;298218Or they could offer him a beef injection. He's always eager.

That's a hot beef injection.

Quote from: boulet;298218Or they could offer him a beef injection. He's always eager.

Well, we callit beef by courtesy, because Kyle's Jewish, but it's really long pork.

-clash

WTF is this thread about?   Somebody please summarize the key points and best lines.

Quote from: Spinachcat;298595WTF is this thread about?   Somebody please summarize the key points and best lines.

tl;dr

Edited.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Spinachcat;298595WTF is this thread about?   Somebody please summarize the key points and best lines.

You'd have to ask Settembrini. He'd know.

If you understand his answer, let us know!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;298602You'd have to ask Settembrini. He'd know.

If you understand his answer, let us know!

I can probably whip out a script to grab Sett quotes and post them in random order.  It can't be less coherent.