Quote from: SigmundHA! Not this sucker. If ya wanna have a paladin discussion, go down to the general board and just ask a question about whether a paladin can do XXX without losing his powers and you will have all the paladin discussion you can take plus. This I predict. (And of course I wouldn't be able to resist being right in the middle of it myself I'm sure  )

Is that's what the debate was about? Under what conditions he would lose his powers?

Nevermind.

Quote from: gleichmanIs that's what the debate was about? Under what conditions he would lose his powers?

Nevermind.

On ENWorld, ever possible aspect of the paladin has been over-debated at some point or another.  Hell, my first post there (well, on the precursor board) was that Robin Hood was actually a paladin instead of a ranger.

I can't imagine any aspect of paladinhood NOT having been discussed at least three times there.  Which is one of the reasons why I don't go there any more.  

actually, what you really want to talk about is whether or not a paladin can be gay.  :heh:

Quote from: CyberzombieOn ENWorld, ever possible aspect of the paladin has been over-debated at some point or another.  Hell, my first post there (well, on the precursor board) was that Robin Hood was actually a paladin instead of a ranger.

I can't imagine any aspect of paladinhood NOT having been discussed at least three times there.  Which is one of the reasons why I don't go there any more.  

Raging flamewars about Paladin behavior is a given on the Internet. The name and original concept is Christian, but it was shoehoed into D&D's mythic pagan setting where frankly it didn't belong.

Add in that much of the 'net' hates anything Christian, the general approval of moral relativism, and simple widespread ignorance. I can understand not going there,

Heck, that makes up much of the reason that I spend more time away from the Internet than not.

Hmm, the above is from my PoV. Likely not yours. That needs to be mentioned in case I offended.

I was hoping the debate was about the class itself. I thought mechanically it was always handled poorly and 3e didn't improve things any.

Quote from: gleichmanHmm, the above is from my PoV. Likely not yours. That needs to be mentioned in case I offended.

It isn't, but I am VERY tough to offend at this point.  I'm a godless heathen pagan*, myself, but I seem to spend most of my time in religious discussions defending Christianity.  I can't stand someone misrepresenting the beliefs of other people, which is invariably what happens in such "debates".  ("Oh noes, teh evil Christians eat babies!!!!!!!")

Quote from: gleichmanI was hoping the debate was about the class itself. I thought mechanically it was always handled poorly and 3e didn't improve things any.

I'm pretty sure that has been done, but I bailed on any paladin discussions before it happened.  I can't disagree that the mechanics suck, though.


*NOT a wiccan.  I want to put a sledge hammer through the head of every fucking wiccan that claims wicca and pagan are synonymous...

Quote from: CyberzombieIt isn't, but I am VERY tough to offend at this point.  I'm a godless heathen pagan*, myself, but I seem to spend most of my time in religious discussions defending Christianity.  I can't stand someone misrepresenting the beliefs of other people, which is invariably what happens in such "debates".  ("Oh noes, teh evil Christians eat babies!!!!!!!")

For some reason I thought that was the case (you being pagan). Not sure why.

I find your lack of hostility refreshing. So many Pagans (the wiccans you speak of for the most part) are so out of hatred of Christianity or western culture and no other reason.

.

For the world's largest religion, few people actually understand it including those who label themselves Christian. Sigh.

Quote from: Cyberzombie*NOT a wiccan.  I want to put a sledge hammer through the head of every fucking wiccan that claims wicca and pagan are synonymous...

Not a big fan of made up religions that are all about pretensions huh?

Quote from: gleichmanFor some reason I thought that was the case (you being pagan). Not sure why.

I find your lack of hostility refreshing. So many Pagans (the wiccans you speak of for the most part) are so out of hatred of Christianity or western culture and no other reason.

.

For the world's largest religion, few people actually understand it including those who label themselves Christian. Sigh.




Not a big fan of made up religions that are all about pretensions huh?

you want religious debate with absolutely no connection to roleplaying, take it over to Nothingland. please.

Quote from: Thjalfiyou want religious debate with absolutely no connection to roleplaying, take it over to Nothingland. please.

What's nothingland.com?

Cyberzombie, I think our exchange had likely reached a conculsion anyway unless you wanted to talk about Paladin mechanics.

If you want to email me using the private email system here please feel free.

Given that SHARK is one of the nicest devout Christians I know, this seems like an entirely appropriate hijack for this thread.  

Quote from: gleichmanFor some reason I thought that was the case (you being pagan). Not sure why.

I'm not sure why, either, but I can live with that.  

Quote from: gleichmanI find your lack of hostility refreshing. So many Pagans (the wiccans you speak of for the most part) are so out of hatred of Christianity or western culture and no other reason.

I hated Christians when I was in high school.  I grew out of that phase.  In my experience, most people don't do that (grow up, that is).  :deviousgrin:

Quote from: gleichman.

I'm WAY too arrogant for your religion.  The concept of salvation only amuses me.

Quote from: gleichmanNot a big fan of made up religions that are all about pretensions huh?

I won't cast stones against made up religions, but pretention drives me up the wall every time.  


Edit: I opened this window to post before Thjalfi posted.  And I'd sooner chew my arm off than go to Nothingland, so here it stays.  

Quote from: CyberzombieEdit: I opened this window to post before Thjalfi posted.  And I'd sooner chew my arm off than go to Nothingland, so here it stays.  

Looks like another forum, a sister one perhaps for open threads? Serving the same function as RPGNet's Tangency? If it is, it would be better if the logins carried over...

No thanks. I'd be there with you chewing my arms in short order.

To bring things back to Paladins in rpgs...

There's only two ways of looking at the issue- either you run Paladins to match the religion of the GM and/or Player, or you attempt to match the Paladin to what you *think* is proper for another religion.

Unless you're speaking of fantasy religons, that requirement right there makes talking about them online almost impossible without flamewars. Even the very act of taking the name Paladin to represent a champion of a non-Christian religion is on a small level offensive (almost I doubt many Christians would give the matter any thought, and rightfuly so in the general case).

In any event, it is a mistake to ever go online and ask for opinions about what a Paladin should do. That is for the person himself to decide, or worst case take it to an trusted expert in the religion under question (with the knowledge that agreement even in the same religion is often fleeting).


As to D&D, and completely how I would like to see it:

Paladins have all the abilities of Fighters as a base. On top of this I would put various special abilities (but tone done the healing, including lay on hands, and focus more on protection and by-passing evil defenses). A Paladin falling from his calling would lose the special abilities, but keep the base fighter skills.

Old D&D made them mini-clerics in their spells which was wrong. It did however the right thing in making them 'Fighters' otherwise.

New D&D makes their base inferior to fighters.

Quote from: gleichmanThere's only two ways of looking at the issue- either you run Paladins to match the religion of the GM and/or Player, or you attempt to match the Paladin to what you *think* is proper for another religion.

Unless you're speaking of fantasy religons, that requirement right there makes talking about them online almost impossible without flamewars.

Oh, you can have flamewars just fine even with a fantasy relegion.  I know I've seen people argue over what a paladin of Heironeous would "really" do.  Which is rather amusing given that more is written about his favoured weapon than about what his followers are supposed to believe.

Quote from: gleichmanAs to D&D, and completely how I would like to see it:

Paladins have all the abilities of Fighters as a base. On top of this I would put various special abilities (but tone done the healing, including lay on hands, and focus more on protection and by-passing evil defenses). A Paladin falling from his calling would lose the special abilities, but keep the base fighter skills.

Old D&D made them mini-clerics in their spells which was wrong. It did however the right thing in making them 'Fighters' otherwise.

New D&D makes their base inferior to fighters.

Good points there.  The paladin is supposed to be penalized by the behaviour he exhibits.  The thing that balances out their nifty spiffy powers is that they can't be as amoral and acquisitive as other D&D characters are.

WotC made the decision that classes would only be balanced mechanically, rather than using that roleplaying balance.  The reasoning was that a lot of DMs did not enforce the roleplaying restrictions, so it wasn't a valid way to balance a class.  I call bullshit on that, personally.  Lots of DMs hand out vorpal swords at 1st level, too.  I don't think game balance should be based on the behaviour of the WORST DMs.  They're going to suck ass no matter what you do.

I like the idea of paladins being almost as good as fighters at fighting, with additional religious abilities contingent on their behaviour.  Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has something like that in the champion class -- plus it's applicable to the champions of a lot more causes.  I've used it in a regular D&D game with good results.

Quote from: CyberzombieI'd sooner chew my arm off than go to Nothingland, so here it stays.  

since when?  

Quote from: BOZsince when?  

when you've only got one arm left anyway, it makes life difficult, I suppose.

Quote from: CyberzombieOh, you can have flamewars just fine even with a fantasy relegion.  I know I've seen people argue over what a paladin of Heironeous would "really" do.  Which is rather amusing given that more is written about his favoured weapon than about what his followers are supposed to believe.

Well, some flamewars can be justified or at least excused on some level, the ones over fantasy religions not so much. The GM is running Heironeous after all. Does he let his players overrule him on the decisions of barmaid they are hitting on? Same basic thing.

Well, some GM let themselves be overruled all the time. They deserve what they get.

It would be a good idea for any GM running a campaign that significantly touches upon religious issues (which any campaign with a Paladin should) to read up on the subject.

A good grounding in Greek or Norse myth for example would prep one nicely for the default D&D setting. You have to carry your own ideas into that, because as you say "more is written about his favoured weapon".

Quote from: CyberzombieGood points there.  The paladin is supposed to be penalized by the behaviour he exhibits.  The thing that balances out their nifty spiffy powers is that they can't be as amoral and acquisitive as other D&D characters are.

Exactly. And I'm right with you on the rest of your comments as well.

One of the better treatements I've seen in a game oddly enough comes from Deadlands with their rules for Blessed. They too went with behaviour balance rather than mechanical balance (although the spending of your experience does put a mechanical break on things).

What's nice here is that the granted ablities are selected from a huge list. Any one individual will only have a handful of them.

The system isn't without its flaws, but the concept allows one to reflect that a divine Champion is a choosen individual- one granted those specific abilities needed for his specific task. And that is cool.

Heya, SHARK.  Welcome to the Nut-Pit.