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Author Topic: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.  (Read 1629 times)

Stephen Tannhauser

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Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« on: July 25, 2022, 10:29:57 PM »
I should begin by noting that I appreciate the value of the "stick to topic or banned" rule and think in most cases it is usefully enforced. Having done a quick scan back through the thread in question, though, I think in SHARK's case his error is likely to have been only a sincere lapse in memory: the "do not post in this thread again" group warning about the brouhaha going on in the "TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies" thread was posted on May 9, nearly three months ago, and SHARK's offending post was made on July 24. It seems very likely to me that SHARK simply saw something that struck his curiosity in the thread and posted a question about it without remembering the threadban -- the fact that there is no permanent public infractions record at this side probably contributed to that.

As somebody who normally has a great deal of useful input on many RPG-related topics, and can usually be counted on to heed warnings (another point that makes me think his offense in this case was sheer forgetfulness), I think SHARK has generally contributed more value to this site than he has detracted. If there must be a ban to encourage people not to take warnings lightly or forget their own infractions, I think it could probably suffice to be temporary in this case and still make its point. I would like to request that SHARK be reconsidered for membership as soon as is felt appropriate.
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Mistwell

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 12:54:27 AM »
SHARK is old and understandably forgetful about something which would have happened back in May. I hope you cut the old coot some slack.

Eirikrautha

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 01:47:43 AM »
The real problem is that SHARK has added many valuable threads and discussions to this board, and his signal to noise ratio is high, but he gets banned for something trivial.  Trolls like Tudesock haven't contributed much of anything but disruption, but because they can skirt the line effectively, they remain.  The policy is missing the forest for the trees...

Visitor Q

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2022, 04:25:02 AM »
I'm relatively new to this site, and I appreciate the way Pundit enforces the rules with (an admittedly harsh) integrity.

However I would say there are a lot of threads in the general Pen and Paper rpg sub forum which are basically complaining about woke culture. That's cool, but SHARK was one of the few thread creators in the last few months actually prompting discussion about rpg design and play.

The reason for the ban was clear and it's a good example of taking the rules seriously. But I would appeal to Pundit's sense of purpose for the forum in considering unbanning a valuable contributor.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:17:45 AM by Visitor Q »

Reckall

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 06:01:48 AM »
While I usually disagree with SHARK when we talk about politics, his posts about RPGs are among the best on this site (interestingly enough, in his games SHARK does seem to explore ideas very far from his political leaning - even in Hearts of Iron IV he is playing the Russians!)

I checked that thread. The Pundit issued a threadban and a warning to a list of people who were posting off topic. Some of them immediately posted off topic again and were banned. No qualms about that. SHARK too posted after the warning but deleted both his posts at once (as the time stamps prove). Maybe he posted something before checking the thread, then he saw the warning and complied. Since The Pundit didn't ban him for this, I think that we can all agree that SHARK's actions proved his good faith.

Three months later he posted something extremely minor, basically a clarification. I can only agree that it was a memory lapse: it wasn't the kind of inflammatory OT that caused the warning, it happened three months after the warning and, as we saw, back then SHARK promptly complied.

I also kind of understand The Pundit's worrying (to be clear, only The Pundit knows what is in Pundit's head). Let's say that you establish "zero tolerance - out of ten". Then someone commits a level-one infraction. Everybody says "Come on! It was a minor infraction! Let's try to be flexible!" OK. But now you have a "one tolerance" policy, and this opens the door to "Come on, in was a two tolerance infraction! Let's try to be flexible!" And so on. When your policy is successfully debated once, it can be debated forever.

If SHARK is pardoned, what about Pat? And if this leads to Pat's pardon too, what about the next one in line? Where is, now, the cut off?

If this was my site, I would have said to SHARK: "Listen, it is clear that you fu**ed up in good faith, because you proved your good faith. PAY ATTENTION. Last warning." And, no, I never argued pro-Pat, and never will, as I agree with The Pundit in that case (and all the others). But this is not my site. I can only appellate to The Pundit's conscience regarding SHARK's specific case, while accepting what his final decision will be. His site, his rules.
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FingerRod

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 07:38:57 AM »
The real problem is that SHARK has added many valuable threads and discussions to this board, and his signal to noise ratio is high, but he gets banned for something trivial.  Trolls like Tudesock haven't contributed much of anything but disruption, but because they can skirt the line effectively, they remain.  The policy is missing the forest for the trees...

100% in lock step with this position. Every word.

SHARK actively creates topics about games. Perhaps more frequently than any other member. He also writes very thorough responses in those topics.

VisionStorm

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2022, 08:26:18 AM »
TBH, I think that one of the issues here is that, aside from rules enforcement being so inconsistent, there is no formal infractions system here or even notifications for moderation warnings or thread bans, other than a post at the thread, which is not a real notification and people can miss. So there's no way to keep track of which threads you've been banned from, other than your own memory and diligence in checking the thread for any prior warning posts before you post, in case any warning was issued, cuz you ain't getting a notification DM to let you know something is up before you post anywhere.

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if The Comedian got banned from that same thread cuz he missed the warning post, then went off to do stuff in real life and didn't think to check the thread before he left, or couldn't because he was busy. There's been tons of times here and elsewhere when I've posted stuff before reading the whole thread and couldn't check the thread after cuz I was about to head out, or was at work and had stuff to do. That's a permaban waiting to happen if I didn't even know I had been banned from that thread, cuz all I got as a notification was a post I could have easily missed if I skipped a page or something.

Now one of the greatest posters in the boards is gone over an innocuous post in a thread where he had been banned almost three months ago and apparently didn't remember.

Cat the Bounty Smuggler

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2022, 08:53:39 AM »
I should begin by noting that I appreciate the value of the "stick to topic or banned" rule and think in most cases it is usefully enforced. Having done a quick scan back through the thread in question, though, I think in SHARK's case his error is likely to have been only a sincere lapse in memory: the "do not post in this thread again" group warning about the brouhaha going on in the "TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies" thread was posted on May 9, nearly three months ago, and SHARK's offending post was made on July 24. It seems very likely to me that SHARK simply saw something that struck his curiosity in the thread and posted a question about it without remembering the threadban -- the fact that there is no permanent public infractions record at this side probably contributed to that.

As somebody who normally has a great deal of useful input on many RPG-related topics, and can usually be counted on to heed warnings (another point that makes me think his offense in this case was sheer forgetfulness), I think SHARK has generally contributed more value to this site than he has detracted. If there must be a ban to encourage people not to take warnings lightly or forget their own infractions, I think it could probably suffice to be temporary in this case and still make its point. I would like to request that SHARK be reconsidered for membership as soon as is felt appropriate.

I agree completely with this.

Given that my post was the catalyst for SHARK's banning and I'm also threadbanned from that thread now, I realize that sounds kind of self-serving, But honestly, I'd gladly eat the ban instead of SHARK. He's contributed to this forum way more than I have.

Eirikrautha

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2022, 09:13:54 AM »
Quote from: Reckall
I also kind of understand The Pundit's worrying (to be clear, only The Pundit knows what is in Pundit's head). Let's say that you establish "zero tolerance - out of ten". Then someone commits a level-one infraction. Everybody says "Come on! It was a minor infraction! Let's try to be flexible!" OK. But now you have a "one tolerance" policy, and this opens the door to "Come on, in was a two tolerance infraction! Let's try to be flexible!" And so on. When your policy is successfully debated once, it can be debated forever.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Timothe

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 11:49:23 AM »
I hadn’t put SHARK on my Ignore List so there must be something good about him.

Sacrificial Lamb

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2022, 04:52:48 PM »
Banning SHARK is absolutely too harsh. I understand that the SJW culture war bleeds into tabletop rpg discussion, and it can be extremely annoying......often causing people to go off-topic. So the off-topic discussion that slips in can be quite irritating.

But SHARK has been posting here for 16 years. :o

That is a very long time. And now he's being banned for some innocuous statement he just made that violated a topic ban from months ago, that he probably honestly forgot about. People forget stuff. It happens. Is there even an official infractions system on this site? Did he receive a private warning from a moderator? If not, I'll bet you that he forgot about a thread ban from months ago. That's an honest mistake.

Meanwhile, SHARK has usually been a legitimately good poster, and he's been here since nearly the very formation of this site. That represents loyalty. It's a horrible idea to drive away loyal and consistently good posters from the site.

Let SHARK back, and insist that he apologizes. If you let him return, Pundit, he'll get the message. He won't post in there again. As the saying goes, to forgive is divine. :'(

Crusader X

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2022, 05:09:55 PM »
SHARK's posts are among the best posts on this forum.  He brings great value to this place while the douchebag trolls who remain do not.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2022, 06:01:08 PM »
You let Tubesnake run wild and ban SHARK.

*slow clap*

jeff37923

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2022, 07:49:08 PM »
Another voice saying, "Unban SHARK!"
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Sacrificial Lamb

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Re: Request for un-banning re: SHARK.
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2022, 09:20:15 PM »
Pundit, I just realized that you mass thread-banned 9 posters simultaneously a couple months ago in the "Woke Companies" thread, and SHARK was one of them. Is it possible that he missed the warning post you made, or only skimmed it....and didn't actually see his name in it? And that's assuming he didn't just forget. There are times when I forget that I posted in a thread. Also, there were a lot of posters bundled up in that warning you gave (months ago), and that thread's been running for nearly a full year. Speaking for myself, I could make a mistake like that.  :-[

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/msg1215928/#msg1215928