Quote from: RPGPunditPS: If you're either a known swine or a brand-new poster (and thus a presumed shill from Storygames), don't even bother voting. Your vote will NOT be counted.

Err, I just saw this after I voted. Oops. Well, I've got nearly 200 non-swiney posts here, so I hope it counts. So for the record, I voted for "Forcibly move their threads to off-topic".

There's nothing wrong with maintaining a focus of "traditional/mainstream" gaming, and simply saying, "Yeah, I hear ya, it's an RPG, whatever. But it's not the focus of the site. So it goes in the Off-Topic forum".  I think in the biz world they still refer to this as "focusing on core competencies".

I mean, what if a bunch of dudes start coming in and talking about Conventions? Like one thread after another on the main forum about Convention Meetups, How to run games at Conventions, New Conventions in the Area, How to Start a Convention, etc. It just gets in the way of the regular gaming discussion, even though its technically RPG-related.

There's nothing wrong with saying "This, THESE GAMES, are the focus of the site, and anything else gets shuffled to Off Topic". That's just tidying and keeping focus, it's not "Oppressiv Moderationzz!!!"

If someone comes here to post about some small-press hippy shit, kick it to the curb. It's clear that it's not the place for it, and the best way to make people know it is to keep your house in order (rather than hoping the topic gets "screamed" off the page).

Quote from: gleichmanI'm not a regular, so I won't even attempt to vote.

LOL, 600+ posts =/= "regular"?  Shit, is this the 1,000+ post club? At what level does one become a "regular"?

Edit to add:

Quote from: J ArcaneLet me put it another way: If you banned pretty much every Forgie that's reared it's head on this site, I'd be quite happy about that. A month or so ago, my opinion may've been different, but frankly, I'm fucking sick of it, and this organized invasion is disruptive and idiotic.

What has been done over the past month or so amounts to honest to god interforum warfare, shilling, and trolling, on a massive scale I've not seen since the Forge theory forum closing led to a massive invasion on RPGnet. And on that reason alone, any moderator on any forum in the world would be well justified in massive action in response, including you.

Errr, well, the 'invasion' was organized pretty much by gleichman, Alnag, One Horse Town, and pretty much everyone else that started the "Poison'd" thread and kept it at the top of the front page of the site by posting back on it. But that is actually another reason I stand by the "Shuffle the Hippy Shit to the Gutter" option. If Pundit had that option in place as board policy ("Non-Traditional Games have as much to do with this site as Lawnmowers and Karaoke. Off to Off-Topic with You!") then that thread would have got dumped on its ass, and all those misguided dudes (who thought it was kosher to discuss those games here) wouldn't have registered to try to misguidedly change opinions or open their mouths.

In Off-Topic, the bitter crowd can still get their jollies off judging others, without having misguided idiots coming in to register and defend shit. And "Game Discussion" stays focused to d20 and the mainstream, no distractions. Win-win-win.

Edited Again (yeah, I know) to add:

Quote from: J ArcaneI do not think that addressing the issue in a blanket anti-ideological fashion would be in line with the stated principles of this site, and would only make Pundit and this site look poor in the eyes of many, many people waiting in the wings to see just such a thing happen.

How would keeping the site focused, on the very things the admin says the focus of the site is, get looked down upon? I mean, sure some retard somewhere might raise a lone voice. But saying you're all about Traditional Roleplaying (or whatever the word is for the non-Forge stuff), and moving Forge shit away... that's just good organization. For real. No facetiousness.  It's no different than putting a welcome mat outside the door of your house so that dirt doesn't get tracked into the living room.

-Andy

Thanks, Andy.  You're making sense to me.

Quote from: Andy KErrr, well, the 'invasion' was organized pretty much by gleichman, Alnag, One Horse Town, and pretty much everyone else that started the "Poison'd" thread and kept it at the top of the front page of the site by posting back on it.

Fantastic. So really, it's our own fault for acting up.  If we would just not talk about the stupidity of the "theory" and let them go about preaching it, no problem.

But the minute you start stating your opinion, like you have any right to talk about theory or have a perfectly good discussion highlighting the holes in the theory, the invasion will soon follow.

Keep your heads down and your mouths shut and nobody gets hurt, eh?

Just remember and keep repeating to yourself - there is no war, there is no war.

Quote from: James J SkachFantastic. So really, it's our own fault for acting up.  If we would just not talk about the stupidity of the "theory" and let them go about preaching it, no problem.

Well now, you wouldn't expect him to blame his own would you (if I'm remembering him correctly)?

Quote from: James J SkachFantastic. So really, it's our own fault for acting up.  If we would just not talk about the stupidity of the "theory" and let them go about preaching it, no problem.

On the Main Forum, which is about Discussing Gaming? Yeah, that's apparently a problem (which is what this poll is about: You have a problem with it, take it to Pundy or Sett).

And again, the option was "Kick them to the Gutter in Off-Topic", not "Delete the thread and halt discussion" (that option presents far more problems, as you're indicating).  As I said, you can still get your jollies on judging others. But it happens in Off-Topic (where fewer idiots will register and jump in, trying mistakenly to change peoples' minds or "carry on the discussion"), and doesn't get in the way of regular gaming discussion in the Game Discussion forum.

Pundit has said this Forge Theory has nothing to do with roleplaying... but letting it stay in open means that everyone's stress level goes up and real game discussion gets derailed. Kick it to the curb (not delete it to prevent people from being vocal about it), is what I was thinking.

QuoteThere's nothing wrong with saying "This, THESE GAMES, are the focus of the site, and anything else gets shuffled to Off Topic". That's just tidying and keeping focus, it's not "Oppressiv Moderationzz!!!"

I, as expected, are of the exact same opinion.

And I´m backing up the Pundit on his thread moves. I called for us all to to something, and he did something.

There´s still freedom of speech, and I think nobody should get banned or censored. Being relegated to the Off-Topic just puts focus on what this site is supposed to be about.

i voted "do nothing" since "free speech" is something that gets thrown around here.  

but if others are coming in and clogging game discussion --> roleplaying games (and i guess the others, too) with crap, then maybe moving to off-topic would be in order.  it's not really censorship then, oui?  

but it's your board, pundit, so you should do what you think is ultimately for the best, and what kind of house you want to have.

It'd help if you could once and for all define swine and swine games.
A list or a set of clear parameters.

Because otherwise its a case of what you think and frankly, whilst its your site and your decision, sounds like little more than wank.

OK so Poison'd sounds like toss but to say "Storygames" are filling the boards is yet more wank - there are more d&d and "traditional" threads than anything else by a long chalk.  This is yet more of your delusional war talk.

Quote from: StumpydaveOK so Poison'd sounds like toss but to say "Storygames" are filling the boards is yet more wank - there are more d&d and "traditional" threads than anything else by a long chalk.  This is yet more of your delusional war talk.

Sure, there are more posts overall, but the ones that generate hundreds of posts and flames quickly are the ones where someone (either out of malice, smugness, cluelessness or whatever) opens it to talk about Forge shit.

There are lots of organs in the human body. If the cancer gets huge, it's better to cut it out than to say, "Well, sure I've got a tumor, but look at all my other healthy organs".

It's not "war", it's "focus". I mean, well, the undercurrent might be "war", but the move is one towards some honest focus.

QuoteIt'd help if you could once and for all define swine and swine games.
A list or a set of clear parameters.

A list would totally suffice, without the "What is Love? Swine?" sophistry. You could honestly generate one quickly. Probably in 10-20 minutes, and add to it as needed. You could go to IPR and copy-paste the catalog, taking out the d20 or more traditionally-focused stuff. If someone thinks that Game X is more traditional or whatever (like say "Passages", a d20-based game with a few hippy elements in it) that debate can happen backstage... and honestly, how many times will that discussion really need to be had, anyway (other than the sake of having it for Game Y, Game Z, etc, in again the distracting sophist, "But what if..." ways)?

-Andy

Quote from: StumpydaveIt'd help if you could once and for all define swine and swine games.
A list or a set of clear parameters.

I assume he's talking about Forge shit, and not Swine in general.  I think that's pretty easy to define.

I voted for "move to Off Topic."

The shunting thing doesn't work too well for me. It ghettoizes a whole area of criticism. I can't say "Game X is mostly great, but mechanic Y takes it in the direction of being a storytelling game, which leads to problem Z. Or requires adjustment Q." As soon as the issue with the game involves its "storygame-ness", the game itself is removed from discussion.

It's not the games that are the problem, but the meta-criticism and identity politics surrounding them.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThe shunting thing doesn't work too well for me. It ghettoizes a whole area of criticism. I can't say "Game X is mostly great, but mechanic Y takes it in the direction of being a storytelling game, which leads to problem Z. Or requires adjustment Q." As soon as the issue with the game involves its "storygame-ness", the game itself is removed from discussion.

It's not the games that are the problem, but the meta-criticism and identity politics surrounding them.

I don't think the intent here is to make games immune to criticism.

RPGPundit identified that same mistake elsewhere, and I don't think he'll make it here.

I think such borderline cases as mentioned by Elliot Wilen could be a problem, not dissimilar to the situation on TBP with d20 where a thread about the whole RPG market could be moved to any of the forums as soon as someone mentions D&D, without any clear guideline where it belongs to.

Or think about the recent discussion on the neutrality of the design patterns recently. I considered it really as a gem on this site, as I've hardly encountered critical acclaim against them and gathered some interesting insights about their sour points as they could have never been pointed out at Storygames or whereever.
Would such a thread also be subject to a offtopic move? What about the RPG design resource thread where also a few selected items from the Forge are collected? Must I fear that it gets moved too as soon as such an decree takes effect?

Another problem, little of the inflammatory nature of the threads has to do with the games.  It's a huge buildup of posting history from multiple forums that end up dominating over any conversation of the games.

I voted for the second option even though I have no clear definition of Swine. Hopefully it means posters you don't like. You (Pundit) and your proxies (2 or 3 at most) bring shit from other forums over here and then throw hissy fits when the stench becomes unbearable. Most (all) of these dumb public consultation threads have been started over issues that you started. So, once and for all decide who these Swine are, ban their asses and then devise a method of determining who potential Swine are so you can root out the enemy before he/she makes himself/herself comfortable on this site.

Regards,
David R