TheRPGSite

Let us say that one of our members, who is a known and relatively liked publisher (small-press publisher) on here were offering to host the site for free, in exchange for putting up banner ads about his games.

Would people want that? Or would people prefer to do a donations drive to raise money every year in order to pay the server costs for the site?

RPGPundit

I can live with some advertising for the sake of alleviating money issues.

If the banner(s) is (are) unobtrusive, and turning a prift doesn't become your goal, that's fine.

I'd be more accepting if the ads were of more than one companies' games.

I'm sure if I knew who the publisher was, it'd be somebody I liked even if I'd never tried their games. But independence of viewpoint is important, and IMO it's going to be difficult to maintain when you have an arrangement like that.

I'd rather the site go with a more open advertising model, preferably with some kind of "clean room" division between the people handling that side of things and the people handling moderation. If somebody thinks it's worth paying to advertise to us numbskulls, let them, whoever they may be. Then we can rake them over the coals in discussion.

I´d appreciate a sticky in the general forum:

"Our advertisers are:...."

With transparency like this in place, I don´t have anything against ads.

A personal hint to the Pundit: People will attack you for being a hypocrit when you take money. You either ride that out, or you post the amount of money into the sticky.

Maybe with fixed prices and categories in the first post, so one can calculate how much is generated each month.

Tranparency is paramount if you want to keep the moral high ground.

The advantage of letting someone host it in exchange for advertising is you avoid any money actually changing hands.  Sure, there's value exchanged, but Pundit can avoid anyone saying anything about him getting money. The disadvantage is that you run the risk of becoming that publisher's site (nothing against any publishers here).

Putting up generic advertising space has the opposite effect. Money changes hand, so Pundit will have to address that; but it will not be limited to one publisher so perception can't be that it's that publisher's site.

Lastly, If you go with the generic advertising, you probably want to have a plan in place to respond to the critics - depending on how much that bothers you.  For example, post not only how much you make on the advertising, but how much it costs.  Explain what you'll do with any net profits - will it go in your pocket, pay the admins a bonus, perform charity work, etc?

Just my 4 hay-pennies...

Utter transparency makes many of the issues involved managable.  This means a discussion of the financial matters involved.

For the record, I would pay $100 for a years worth of banner ads on theRPGSite. I thought someone had said the break-even on the site was around 200 so you would not have to sell much more advertising space to get there.

The plus, you remain off a company's servers which can be difficult to extricate your site from if not technically savvy, exposes you to the risk of "if the company folds or does not pay their bills" and opens you up to security issues.

So, I would counter propose offering company sponsorships where advertising and promotional programs are offered. This way, the community benefits from the participation of companies (hopefully in the sense of promotional products or the like).

Just a thought.

Bill

I'm agree with Hinterwelt on this one.  I'd rather not put the server's hosting into company hands for a variety of reasons.  However, I'd be more than happy to see some discrete advertising by some of the companies here, such as Flying Mice's and Hinterwelt.

At first I didn't have a problem with it at all, but I think that Bill makes a good point.  Having a company provide the hosting potentially opens you up to a lot of hassle, no matter how ethical and cool the company in question is.  

I would recommend selling a limited amount of ads and/or promotional programs to cover the costs of maintaining the site, perhaps supplemented by a system of donations through PayPal.  My faith in human nature is such that I don't think that voluntary contributions would cover the whole cost, but I think that the members of this community are invested enough that it might cover a portion.  To be honest, the less advertisements the better, IMO.

In any case, as already has been mentioned by several people, I think that transparency is the best course of action.  Hell, even *if* you want it to be a personal money-maker  (and to be clear I am not saying that it is the case) it would be better to be up front about it rather than the rather unseemly way those issues are handled at tBP.


TGA

I support keeping it separate.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerUtter transparency makes many of the issues involved managable.  This means a discussion of the financial matters involved.

Quoted For Truth.

I agree 100% that the transaction should be transparent.

Yeah, its a complicated issue. Its a good offer, but there are some of the problems.

What I'd more clearly like to know is whether people would generally prefer to have advertising going on here (as in, either this kind of arrangement or general ads), or would rather this place remained ad-free and we paid our way through donation drives?

RPGPundit

I don't think it's wise to host therpgsite on some company's server. Companies come and go, and moods of owners change. We want a stable and reliable server.

I think advertising is fine. I would just be clear about the amount you'll accept. I understand you're not aiming to make money with this? You still might want to accept advertising in value greater than the cost of running it, in case of price hikes in the server space in future, or drops in bought advertising. It's good to have a reserve.

Just don't go for those intellitext green hyperlink adverts, those are annoying. Stick to the good old banner adverts.

Yeah, speaking for myself, banners are no problem, and I think I prefer them to membership drives. (If someone has a good argument on the other hand, I'd like to hear it.)

If someone's on a dialup connection...well, maybe some of our avatars are already a problem...but I'd still want to set limits on the bandwidth load imposed, and discourage any fancy animated junk, especially if it uses Flash or whatnot. Advertising should support the site, not the other way around.

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, its a complicated issue. Its a good offer, but there are some of the problems.

What I'd more clearly like to know is whether people would generally prefer to have advertising going on here (as in, either this kind of arrangement or general ads), or would rather this place remained ad-free and we paid our way through donation drives?

RPGPundit

It's unfair to you to have to pay all the costs, especially when there are people on here who really seem to dislike you.  

A "membership" deal would result in the cliquishness you despise, and there's no way someone's going to pay you and not get any kind of recognition for it (or at least enough people).  If the monies are termed donations people might pay a little.

Banner ads are okay by me, as long as it's not just one company and they are  not too incredibly obtrusive.  Not that I'd quit posting, but I'm in the even tinier minority of regular posters.

The real question is: is paying for the site crippling?  Could you still do it if the "donations" were a pittance?

banner ads are fine.  But like many here I'd advise against getting into bed with any one company.  It removes control of the site from you to them and if they fold, or decide they don't like the way things are run.  That's it for the rpgsite.

Donation drives work well for UnknownArmies.com so that could be considered.  Again, like other posters have said, keep everything transparent and you won't have any problems.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat I'd more clearly like to know is whether people would generally prefer to have advertising going on here (as in, either this kind of arrangement or general ads), or would rather this place remained ad-free and we paid our way through donation drives?

Nothing is for free. I trust you will do what's best and I can tolerate discreet advertising.

But first, you could try a single donation drive. If it fails or it is insufficient (that will probably be the case) nobody could blame you for going with ads. If it succeeds, it will be a nice achievement for a small community and you can repeat. Thus keeping the website independant as long as you can.

Donations can lead to other problems however. Some people do expect to get something back for their donation. And others will get pointlessly offended. There's a balance there as well.

One way or another, if RPGsite's traffic continues to increase, you will have to face this problem and I think you will have the support of most people to do something about it.

Yes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

As others have put it though, the "donation" route would open up feelings of entitlement. I would most likely not donate just to enable your dream of an RPG site. Sorry but true. I would purchase space on theRPGSite for the purpose of promoting my games. Honestly, one comes down to being a charity and the other is a business. IF being a business offends...I have nothing to recommend. On the other hand, your cause is not noble enough for me to donate money too. I choose the charities I support with great care. TheRPGSite does not meet the criteria. However, as an investment in advertising it would nicely fit the bill.

That said, I can see how others might be more than willing to donate money, receive as much (which is to say very little) say as they have now in the operation of the site. I do not mind the idea but think you might be opening a can of worms.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

I trust Jrients.  I am only a few hours from him and if he screws up I can go kick his ass!

I would say that its not so much a charity, as it is a service being rendered. If you want the service of a low-moderation free-speech RPGsite to continue, you would donate.

If you really don't care about that, then I guess you wouldn't.  But it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives.

RPGPundit

Edit 1: Which is not to say we wouldn`t allow some unobtrustive advertising from game companies we appreciate, like you, flying mice, PIG, etc etc.
We`d just need a decent tech admin who actually did his job in order to make it happen.

Edit 2: At the moment, there is certainly no plan for any kind of "reward" for donations, other than the reward of the site continuing to operate. There might be some kind of a token reward thought up, but it would certainly NOT involve "having an increased say" compared to any of the other people on this site.

See, I think you would open yourself and the site up to problems in this way. If you spin it like a service, then as a customer I can expect certain things. If it is just donations, it is a charity. The difference being accountability and responsibility. With a donation, it is not expected to receive anything (beyond the stated goals of the charity) beyond honest administration of the funds. For a service, it is expected you will supply a service which I have purchased. Both build a sense of entitlement. I am not trying to make some kind of dire prediction, just put the options in proper perspective.

As for perks for donators...meh,  I think that is an even worse idea since you start down the path of cliques that way.

However, again, I am not repulsed by a donation scheme, just concerned.

Bill

Edit: as a suggestion on the donation side I would recommend that the donators remain anonymous. Release amounts or any other information but anonymity will keep the clique-ishness to a minimum.

Quote from: HinterWeltEdit: as a suggestion on the donation side I would recommend that the donators remain anonymous. Release amounts or any other information but anonymity will keep the clique-ishness to a minimum.

I second the motion.  And I think we should mercilessly taunt anyone who puts "theRPGsite Member" or "I donated to theRPGsite" in their sig...  :D  


TGA

Quote from: RPGPunditI would say that its not so much a charity, as it is a service being rendered. If you want the service of a low-moderation free-speech RPGsite to continue, you would donate.

If you really don't care about that, then I guess you wouldn't.  But it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives.

RPGPundit

Edit 1: Which is not to say we wouldn`t allow some unobtrustive advertising from game companies we appreciate, like you, flying mice, PIG, etc etc.
We`d just need a decent tech admin who actually did his job in order to make it happen.

Edit 2: At the moment, there is certainly no plan for any kind of "reward" for donations, other than the reward of the site continuing to operate. There might be some kind of a token reward thought up, but it would certainly NOT involve "having an increased say" compared to any of the other people on this site.

You don't get to say the first part and then get edit 2.  I mean, the reward is that you're someone the owner of the site has declared "really gives a fuck."

And here lies the problem I think Hinter is pointing out (as well as others).  If you go donations, the entire process needs to be anonymous.  Otherwise, you create a division.  And you can be sure as shit someone will bring it up - sooner or later.  I'm betting on you in the pool if it goes that way.

Finally, look at Hinter, or me.  Are we here for other motives? Would you assume that if we didn't donate?

It's just a bad path.  Might as well just charge us a fee, to be honest.

James Skatch's concerns mirror's mine almost exactly.  The only difference is I do think donations are preferable, but "it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives," does raise the Eyebrow of Skepticism.

Quote from: HinterWeltI would most likely not donate just to enable your dream of an RPG site. Sorry but true. I would purchase space on theRPGSite for the purpose of promoting my games. Honestly, one comes down to being a charity and the other is a business.

It's not as clear-cut as that. There exist also, "non-profit groups," such as local football clubs. A local football club (or Boy Scouts, or roleplaying club, etc) may accept money for advertising, but it's not a "business" in the sense you meant it - designed to make money. They accept money sufficient to keep themselves going; their club is not a "service", it's not a "charity", but it's not a for-profit "business." It's a non-profit community group. In such groups you have people who volunteer their time to keep the thing running, and you sometimes have for-profit companies paying for advertising. If Bob the Fruiterer of Wogga Falls paid for Wogga Falls football club's pullovers, there may be a label on each, "Bob the Fruiterer!" That doesn't make the football team a "business" in the sense you meant it.

I recommend the "non-profit community group" model as the one most likely to get paid advertising without any geek sense of entitlement - "I know my rights!" - or ill-will.

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's not as clear-cut as that. There exist also, "non-profit groups," such as local football clubs. A local football club (or Boy Scouts, or roleplaying club, etc) may accept money for advertising, but it's not a "business" in the sense you meant it - designed to make money. They accept money sufficient to keep themselves going; their club is not a "service", it's not a "charity", but it's not a for-profit "business." It's a non-profit community group. In such groups you have people who volunteer their time to keep the thing running, and you sometimes have for-profit companies paying for advertising. If Bob the Fruiterer of Wogga Falls paid for Wogga Falls football club's pullovers, there may be a label on each, "Bob the Fruiterer!" That doesn't make the football team a "business" in the sense you meant it.

I recommend the "non-profit community group" model as the one most likely to get paid advertising without any geek sense of entitlement - "I know my rights!" - or ill-will.

Jimbob,
In the US that is still a business so, yes, I meant business. NPOs are a corporation (usually), and this is a legitimate business model in the US so it is either going to be a business or a charity, from my POV. I have no idea about Uruguay. So in the US, you need to register your NPO and go through some hoops to make sure the government believes you're an NPO.

Now, does the local little league do it? Yes, if they are receiving compensation and wish to remain an NPO. It mostly has to do with tax exemption and whether the person donating the money wants a tax write off. Note: Technically this is what you call a "Community Organization" but is still classified as an NPO.

However, in usual spectacular form, you have missed my point. I could care less if Pundit goes to jail over the form of business of the site. It does not matter to me. I am simply stating my views on the proposed approach. I do not have my undies in a bind, but I am not going to blindly give money over to an internet site. Sorry, that could just be my take but I feel there are other organizations more deserving of my charity. In addition, I just believe it will cause problems. Whether theRPGSite is a form NPO or it si just JRients taking in PayPal donations, you will raise a lot of eyebrows and suspicions. Go with an advertising model (which can still be an NPO in the US at least) and you need only deal with a few advertisers.

That said, you would have to gauge interest. As I said before, I would pony up $100 for a years worth of banner ads on the forums.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThat said, you would have to gauge interest. As I said before, I would pony up $100 for a years worth of banner ads on the forums.

Bill

That makes 2 of us.

-clash

No, mate, you have missed my point.

You said "business." As we're not speaking to a group of lawyers, to most of the people you're speaking to, that will mean "for profit."

So I drew the line between "for profit" and "non-profit" to make that clear. therpgsite can accept advertising or donations or both, and be a non-profit organisation. I drew the comparison with the local football club so that people would get that.

Now, my personal advice is to go the non-profit community organisation way, but accept only advertising dollars. People are more inclined to give money if they're getting something tangible for it, and it'll avoid the problems others have mentioned, of people donating having a sense of entitlement, etc. therpgsite is already perceived as unfriendly to half its potential audience, we don't want it to be perceived as unfriendly to those who cannot or will not fork over some cash in a "donation drive."

Just sell some advertising, and aim to cover your costs, with a little set aside for leaner times, or server space price rises, etc.

*WARNING:  I am not a lawyer, so take this with a big ol' grain of salt*

Having personally been involved in the setting up of a not-for-profit corporation and several for-profit corporations in the US, I can tell you that in my opinion these options are *way* too much hassle for what we are talking about here, which is getting a few hundred bucks to cover hosting costs for an RPG forum.  For setting up these sorts of corporations correctly expect to hire an attorney or have a friend who knows how to file these specialized documents for you.

I don't know the business laws of Uruguay, but the far simpler solution, if absolutely necessary, is to set up a sole proprietorship.  This usually in the US involves filling out some forms and that's about it.  Frankly, I am not even sure that is worth the effort, unless the advertisers themselves would prefer to deal with a formal business entity for the transaction.

As I said, this stuff gets thick pretty quick.  The simpler the better, IMO.


TGA

Quote from: flyingmiceThat makes 2 of us.

-clash

Well, if Clash is infor $100 then that makes $200 with just two companies. If you can't run the site on $200 USD then you are doing something phenomenally wrong.

To Jimbob: So, we are agreeing in spectacular form? ;) I must have missed your point so sorry for that. Battling a migraine and have to get orders out tonight. I will be quiet on the subject. Oh, and for the record, I am a CMA not a lawyer. :p

Bill

Quote from: The Good Assyrian*WARNING:  I am not a lawyer, so take this with a big ol' grain of salt*

Having personally been involved in the setting up of a not-for-profit corporation and several for-profit corporations in the US, I can tell you that in my opinion these options are *way* too much hassle for what we are talking about here, which is getting a few hundred bucks to cover hosting costs for an RPG forum.  For setting up these sorts of corporation correctly expect to hire an attorney or have a friend who knows how to file these specialized documents for you.

I don't know the business laws of Uruguay, but the far simpler solution, if absolutely necessary, is to set up a sole proprietorship.  This usually in the US involves filling out some forms and that's about it.  Frankly, I am not even sure that is worth the effort, unless the advertisers themselves would prefer to deal with a formal business entity for the transaction.

As I said, this stuff gets thick pretty quick.  The simpler the better, IMO.


TGA

TGA,
I think that discussion was off the rails. I, at least, was never suggesting an NPO or any formal organization, just making broad strokes saying I have better places to donate money than an internet fora.

And I whole heartedly agree, NPOs are not fun to create or maintain.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltTGA,
I think that discussion was off the rails. I, at least, was never suggesting an NPO or any formal organization, just making broad strokes saying I have better places to donate money than an internet fora.

And I whole heartedly agree, NPOs are not fun to create or maintain.

Bill

No problem, Bill.  I understand your point about charity giving entirely.  I was actually responding more to JimBob, who did seem to be suggesting the not-for-profit model.  I may have misunderstood him, but that is a colossal pain in the ass to set up.  At least in the USA.


TGA

I'll put my vote in for good adds.  The kind they used to have in Dragon Magazine and are sorely lacking in the industry today.  Adds that have a picture and say a few things about the game.

But please, no Google adds or porn site adds, or adds for Tom Hanks movies.

I'd donate by the way.  I never donated elsewhere because the time when they started asking for money coresponded quite nicely with the time when I got sick of the bullshit.

So yes I'd donate.  Yes if I ever have a company up and going, I'd advertise.  Yes I'd love to see informative gaming related adds.  No computer game adds though please.

I'm not saying that everyone who didn't/couldn't donate were here for bad reasons; just that its blatantly clear that those who are not here for good reasons (blackie, tonylb, Lev, etc) will very clearly NOT be among those who will donate money for the site's continued wellbeing, making it just more obvious that their role here is that of intentional "outside agitators" who want to see this place fail.

RPGPundit

But yes, I agree that in theory I would agree that banner ads by the companies we all like and enjoy would probably not bother anyone, and would pretty well pay for expenses by themselves.

Of course, this would require us having at least ONE admin that knew something about how to do things with this software (discounting all current admins except Umasama), and would actually give a fuck and do his job (discounting Umasama).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not saying that everyone who didn't/couldn't donate were here for bad reasons; just that its blatantly clear that those who are not here for good reasons (blackie, tonylb, Lev, etc) will very clearly NOT be among those who will donate money for the site's continued wellbeing, making it just more obvious that their role here is that of intentional "outside agitators" who want to see this place fail.

RPGPundit

TonyLB and Blakkie post enough that I think they like it here.  Or they could be dicks.  I really don't know.

You must have missed their s33kr1t 4g3nd4, joewolz. I think they're planning it all in those hidden story-games forums, and that's why Andy K never approved my application to join, I might reveal the Secret Agenda Conspiracy Thingo. :p

Yes, banner ads. Yes, for games. No, not for Asian WoW sweatshops. Also, not TOWER ads (those sidebar things).

That can't be so difficult to implement, admin-wise?

By the way, I found some cool stats--

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=6m&size=medium&compare_sites=&url=http://www.rpg.net

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.enworld.org

Meanwhile, in a musty corner of the internet...

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.therpgsite.com

I know EXACTLY what you're going to say, Pundy.

Ads, donations, whatever.  I'm happy with either.  As long as I get a tshirt out of it.  You know, something like

"I donated to theRPGsite and all I got..."

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not saying that everyone who didn't/couldn't donate were here for bad reasons; just that its blatantly clear that those who are not here for good reasons (blackie, tonylb, Lev, etc) will very clearly NOT be among those who will donate money for the site's continued wellbeing, making it just more obvious that their role here is that of intentional "outside agitators" who want to see this place fail.

Awww ... see now, no matter what I do, Pundit's going to view it as a sign of hypocrisy.

For what it's worth, the instant I saw the idea of a donation drive my response was "Sure, I'd pay $10 to help keep the RPGSite going.  Even setting aside the roleplaying discussions, I pay more for a circus ticket, and the circus isn't half as entertaining!"

But it's a sad fact that once Pundit starts slinging around his whole "You are dishonest, and so everything you do is done for dishonest reasons, the truth of which only I, the Pundit, am capable of perceiving!" schtick, the possibility of sane interactions gets shot straight to hell.  No doubt, if we get a donation drive going and I donate, Pundit's going to get his gloat on about "Look, they are such liars that I can use their very dishonesty to trick them into supporting my cause, just so that their lying lies are not revealed!  I RULE!  I am WINNING THE WAR!"

That whole mess makes me use a sad-face emoticon. :(   But don't worry, folks!  The next circus (and I'm sure there'll be one along any day) will make me happy again.  :D

You say what you say now, but I seriously doubt that you could bring yourself, even to try to hide your real intentions, to actually put money down to something that would help in the survival of this site, and thus the success of the people you despise.

You and the others I mentioned are here to try to bring this place down. I would bet you wouldn't be willing to put down a single groat to keep it alive.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI know EXACTLY what you're going to say, Pundy.

Actually, I'm not going to say anything, because when I clicked those links all I got to was blank screens... :confused:

Care to give me the gist of what they were about?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou say what you say now, but I seriously doubt that you could bring yourself, even to try to hide your real intentions, to actually put money down to something that would help in the survival of this site, and thus the success of the people you despise.

You and the others I mentioned are here to try to bring this place down. I would bet you wouldn't be willing to put down a single groat to keep it alive.

Oh, seriously?  You're that certain that anyone who donates must not be trying to tear the site down?  Cool.  Let's get this donation drive going then.  If the donation that I'd been planning to make anyway will have the additional benefit of finally convincing you that you've read me wrong then that would be great.

Away goes the idea of donations of not being a group pressure/clique building thing...
:rolleyes:

Let´s better get the money through free market forces.
At least that´s a bias everybody understands.

Quote from: SettembriniAway goes the idea of donations of not being a group pressure/clique building thing...
:rolleyes:

Yeah, madness has a way of making someone create the exact opposite of their intent.

I was willing to throw money at keeping this site running until it made me a "better rpgsite user" than Tony, who I happen think offers about 20x the contribution I do, even if we excise the times he's come out in defense of Ron's Playhouse. I can't generate that kind of bullshit perception.

This truly was an own-goal of the Pundit.
He should never ever have uttered his theory on that in public. Now he can´t even validate his theory.

Self-fulfilling Catc-22, that´s what he generated.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou and the others I mentioned are here to try to bring this place down. I would bet you wouldn't be willing to put down a single groat to keep it alive.

RPGPundit

Have you been running short on meds lately, or what?  

The whole point of a discussion is that someone may disagree with you.  Reading a bizarre agenda into the fact that some people disagree with you just makes you look petty, man.  I seriously doubt that "saboteurs" would take the time and effort to post (in the case of Tony) over 1100 messages in forums that he didn't enjoy, just to somehow get at you by bringing it crashing down in flames.  How much contribution to the discussion on this site will free Tony from your suspicion?  Or has your Magic 8Ball™ told you what his true motivations are?

And fuck, even if Tony is a deep cover mole for whatever evil forces lurk out there who are trying to bring you down (see how that sounds?), what makes you think that it makes any difference?  Do you think so little of this community that you believe that one or two people with bad intentions can destroy it?  Or do we need a strong protector, one who has the Magic 8Ball™ which will tell him who are the loyal ones and who must be eradicated?  Fuck that noise.

Listen, if you are going to persist to publicly use the donation idea as a loyalty test (which some people, apparently, can never pass), then I think that it is best to simply go with advertisements.  They would be the lesser of two evils.


TGA

Quote from: RPGPunditActually, I'm not going to say anything, because when I clicked those links all I got to was blank screens... :confused:

Care to give me the gist of what they were about?

RPGPundit

They're detailed internet traffic stats for rpg.net, enworld, and this here site. The rpg.net stat page is currently down, but right now the other two are working.

Rash minds could interpret certain figures and graphs as meaning they're winning the infraweb blitzkrieg...

Don't tell Pundit we're winning anything.  It'll only feed into his delusion that there really is a war between real roleplayers and swine!

i think add should be sold to Publishers. There are plenty of publisher who would love to advertise here.

I changed my mind.  I'm absolutely certain that paid-for advertising and banner ads are the way to go.  Put the onus on the owner, not us, to decide who pays for the site.

I'm beginning to think these "Public Consultations" are little more than "Help Cover My Ass" and provide a nice inroad to "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN" propaganda that's handy to have in a war.  Its your site, why don't you make a fucking decision?  If folks are going to throw a tantrum, they'll throw one regardless what you do.

Quote from: MoriartyI changed my mind.  I'm absolutely certain that paid-for advertising and banner ads are the way to go.  Put the onus on the owner, not us, to decide who pays for the site.

I'm beginning to think these "Public Consultations" are little more than "Help Cover My Ass" and provide a nice inroad to "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN" propaganda that's handy to have in a war.  Its your site, why don't you make a fucking decision?  If folks are going to throw a tantrum, they'll throw one regardless what you do.

I'm cool with either scheme.  

I don't think the Public Consultations are any kind of intentional propaganda.  Pundits sticking to his guns with these and letting EVERYONE weigh in on decisions.  He will ultimately do what he wants, but the fact that he will listen to the members of this community he's fostering says volumes about what he wants here.

I think some banner ads would work out rather well.  I like the idea of donations, but apparently folks are worried about bragging about how much you have/haven't donated... I don't really follow that, though.

Quote from: joewolzI don't think the Public Consultations are any kind of intentional propaganda.  Pundits sticking to his guns with these and letting EVERYONE weigh in on decisions.  He will ultimately do what he wants, but the fact that he will listen to the members of this community he's fostering says volumes about what he wants here.

Apparantly everyone except "those who are not here for good reasons (blackie, tonylb, Lev, etc)," as determined by Pundit.  As well as others who might be on the Rogues Gallery B-List who don't pony up the cash, say enough great things about Amber, Gygax and Viking Hatted GMs or enough bad things about RPG.net, The Forge and Nox to prove otherwise.

Quote from: MoriartyApparantly everyone except "those who are not here for good reasons (blackie, tonylb, Lev, etc)," as determined by Pundit.  As well as others who might be on the Rogues Gallery B-List who don't pony up the cash, say enough great things about Amber, Gygax and Viking Hatted GMs or enough bad things about RPG.net, The Forge and Nox to prove otherwise.

Well, I'm not any one of those things, and he listens to me.  He listens to me as much as anyone else, anyway.

Oh, and because I'm exercising my right to do so today: Fuck you.  :D

Good on you Joe.  There's lots of people here who disagree with me, or who dislike me personally, while still agreeing with the principles of this site.

RPGPundit

PS> And I always end up making the final decision. But its good to see what the sincerely interested membership of this site feels. Often, it has given me a sober second thought about something I was planning to do, and I'm grateful for that. In this case, I really hadn't considered one way or the other what I felt about this issue (other than the realization that I wouldn't have a fucking clue HOW to make ads on this site, on the technical level), so I was particularly interested in what the feelings of the membership were about our options.

If it keeps the site going , then I vote for having ads - but only gaming-related ads.

 Also for a purely personal agenda reason , I'd prefer more advertisements for tabletop-style RPG games than for electronic or video games.

- E.W.C.

Quote from: KoltarAlso for a purely personal agenda reason , I'd prefer more advertisements for tabletop-style RPG games than for electronic or video games.

Definitely.

Quote from: KoltarIf it keeps the site going , then I vote for having ads - but only gaming-related ads.

 Also for a purely personal agenda reason , I'd prefer more advertisements for tabletop-style RPG games than for electronic or video games.

- E.W.C.

Gods, yes.  The last thing we need is a tower ad telling us to "chose wisely", or anything related to WoW.

I don't have a problem with banner ads as long as they are not flashing neon, towers, or those stupid flash pop-overs/unders.

Quote from: RockViperI don't have a problem with banner ads as long as they are not flashing neon, towers, or those stupid flash pop-overs/unders.

A lot of folks have been voicing concerns about type and style of ad. To give my take, I would expect an ad like this:
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/banners/HWEBanner-Heyyou.gif)

I would love to pay less but would be willing to go as high as $100 for a year run. Position wise, my first choice would be at the top, kind of where theRPGSite logo is now and as a header, through out the entire site.

So, I do not know if that fits with peoples expectations but that is what I was thinking.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/banners/HWEBanner-Heyyou.gif)

And a fantastic way to get it on the site :D

Ooops..now I've moved it down...better go back and quote you...

And now everyone needs to quote you so the ad stays at the top of this thread...

Frankly, I'm opposed to ad space in the form of banners. They are too intrusive and take up too much screen real estate on a site like this.

Quote from: pigames.netFrankly, I'm opposed to ad space in the form of banners. They are too intrusive and take up too much screen real estate on a site like this.

I do not follow Brett. It takes up no more space than the header at the top of the page.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI do not follow Brett. It takes up no more space than the header at the top of the page.

It means more images have to load, more delay, more scrolling. I like this site because there are no banners. It loads fairly quickly and has no flashy banners distracting me. I guess I'm just burnt out from rpg.net and all the other forums, especially enworld which was ghastly-designed.

Make this banner static and its perfect.

Quote from: HinterWeltA lot of folks have been voicing concerns about type and style of ad. To give my take, I would expect an ad like this:
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/banners/HWEBanner-Heyyou.gif)

I would love to pay less but would be willing to go as high as $100 for a year run. Position wise, my first choice would be at the top, kind of where theRPGSite logo is now and as a header, through out the entire site.

So, I do not know if that fits with peoples expectations but that is what I was thinking.

Bill

Quote from: pigames.netIt means more images have to load, more delay, more scrolling. I like this site because there are no banners. It loads fairly quickly and has no flashy banners distracting me. I guess I'm just burnt out from rpg.net and all the other forums, especially enworld which was ghastly-designed.

you could limit the size of the image, so that it's not much more than the avatar images....

And if you put it right next to the RPGsite log, no more scrolling...

And I agree about not doing the flashing-I'm-going-into-seizure-thing...

So change your ad, Bill.... :D

Quote from: pigames.netIt means more images have to load, more delay, more scrolling. I like this site because there are no banners. It loads fairly quickly and has no flashy banners distracting me. I guess I'm just burnt out from rpg.net and all the other forums, especially enworld which was ghastly-designed.

Well, mostly I was suggesting it as an alternative to what Pundit said. His original proposal would have ads from one publisher in exchange for server space. In this way, you have the same concession but are not tied to the good will of a single publisher. You can host wherever you want and if one of a handful of advertisers give you grief or the membership complains, then they can be gotten rid of with out the grief of switching hosts.

As tot he rest, impose limits. I can make static banners under 20K. If that slows load time then something is fundamentally wring with the server and or forum software.

As to format, heck, don't list several publishers at once. One banner at the top of the fora is hardly intrusive IMO.

Bill

I haven't waded through all of this thread, so apologies if someone has said something similar upthread somewhere.

Instead of advertising space and those annoying little banners, why not sell sub-forums? We have an Amber one. Just charge some money to create new ones for interested parties. This could be a one-off payment or a yearly 'donation'. That way, the company gets to plug any/all of it's games in one place where discussions can take place about them.

Trouble with this, is that you could end up with a silly amount of forums, but i think it's a nice touch personally. The designers could hang out there to discuss things (as Erik does in the Amber forum).

Could be a solution.

There´s someone willing to pay for a service.

Don´t discuss with him, like he´s some kind of supplicant.