Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, its a complicated issue. Its a good offer, but there are some of the problems.

What I'd more clearly like to know is whether people would generally prefer to have advertising going on here (as in, either this kind of arrangement or general ads), or would rather this place remained ad-free and we paid our way through donation drives?

RPGPundit

It's unfair to you to have to pay all the costs, especially when there are people on here who really seem to dislike you.  

A "membership" deal would result in the cliquishness you despise, and there's no way someone's going to pay you and not get any kind of recognition for it (or at least enough people).  If the monies are termed donations people might pay a little.

Banner ads are okay by me, as long as it's not just one company and they are  not too incredibly obtrusive.  Not that I'd quit posting, but I'm in the even tinier minority of regular posters.

The real question is: is paying for the site crippling?  Could you still do it if the "donations" were a pittance?

banner ads are fine.  But like many here I'd advise against getting into bed with any one company.  It removes control of the site from you to them and if they fold, or decide they don't like the way things are run.  That's it for the rpgsite.

Donation drives work well for UnknownArmies.com so that could be considered.  Again, like other posters have said, keep everything transparent and you won't have any problems.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat I'd more clearly like to know is whether people would generally prefer to have advertising going on here (as in, either this kind of arrangement or general ads), or would rather this place remained ad-free and we paid our way through donation drives?

Nothing is for free. I trust you will do what's best and I can tolerate discreet advertising.

But first, you could try a single donation drive. If it fails or it is insufficient (that will probably be the case) nobody could blame you for going with ads. If it succeeds, it will be a nice achievement for a small community and you can repeat. Thus keeping the website independant as long as you can.

Donations can lead to other problems however. Some people do expect to get something back for their donation. And others will get pointlessly offended. There's a balance there as well.

One way or another, if RPGsite's traffic continues to increase, you will have to face this problem and I think you will have the support of most people to do something about it.

Yes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

As others have put it though, the "donation" route would open up feelings of entitlement. I would most likely not donate just to enable your dream of an RPG site. Sorry but true. I would purchase space on theRPGSite for the purpose of promoting my games. Honestly, one comes down to being a charity and the other is a business. IF being a business offends...I have nothing to recommend. On the other hand, your cause is not noble enough for me to donate money too. I choose the charities I support with great care. TheRPGSite does not meet the criteria. However, as an investment in advertising it would nicely fit the bill.

That said, I can see how others might be more than willing to donate money, receive as much (which is to say very little) say as they have now in the operation of the site. I do not mind the idea but think you might be opening a can of worms.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, frankly, I would strongly prefer donation drives. I would rather keep this place advertising free.

Let me make it clear just how much I want people to know that, unlike other supposed "RPG discussion communities", theRPGsite is in no way going to be for me to make money off of:  whether it ultimately be via advertising or via donation drives (and frankly, the latter appeals to me because it gives certain people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is as far as actually supporting this site, we'll clearly know who really gives a fuck and who doesn't), in either case I will not personally handle the money.  I will leave it to other admins to handle it via a paypal account, probably  Jrients who I think everyone here will agree is very trustworthy.

This way everyone will know that there's no chance that the RPGPundit is lining his own pockets in any way off this site.

RPGPundit

I trust Jrients.  I am only a few hours from him and if he screws up I can go kick his ass!

I would say that its not so much a charity, as it is a service being rendered. If you want the service of a low-moderation free-speech RPGsite to continue, you would donate.

If you really don't care about that, then I guess you wouldn't.  But it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives.

RPGPundit

Edit 1: Which is not to say we wouldn`t allow some unobtrustive advertising from game companies we appreciate, like you, flying mice, PIG, etc etc.
We`d just need a decent tech admin who actually did his job in order to make it happen.

Edit 2: At the moment, there is certainly no plan for any kind of "reward" for donations, other than the reward of the site continuing to operate. There might be some kind of a token reward thought up, but it would certainly NOT involve "having an increased say" compared to any of the other people on this site.

See, I think you would open yourself and the site up to problems in this way. If you spin it like a service, then as a customer I can expect certain things. If it is just donations, it is a charity. The difference being accountability and responsibility. With a donation, it is not expected to receive anything (beyond the stated goals of the charity) beyond honest administration of the funds. For a service, it is expected you will supply a service which I have purchased. Both build a sense of entitlement. I am not trying to make some kind of dire prediction, just put the options in proper perspective.

As for perks for donators...meh,  I think that is an even worse idea since you start down the path of cliques that way.

However, again, I am not repulsed by a donation scheme, just concerned.

Bill

Edit: as a suggestion on the donation side I would recommend that the donators remain anonymous. Release amounts or any other information but anonymity will keep the clique-ishness to a minimum.

Quote from: HinterWeltEdit: as a suggestion on the donation side I would recommend that the donators remain anonymous. Release amounts or any other information but anonymity will keep the clique-ishness to a minimum.

I second the motion.  And I think we should mercilessly taunt anyone who puts "theRPGsite Member" or "I donated to theRPGsite" in their sig...    


TGA

Quote from: RPGPunditI would say that its not so much a charity, as it is a service being rendered. If you want the service of a low-moderation free-speech RPGsite to continue, you would donate.

If you really don't care about that, then I guess you wouldn't.  But it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives.

RPGPundit

Edit 1: Which is not to say we wouldn`t allow some unobtrustive advertising from game companies we appreciate, like you, flying mice, PIG, etc etc.
We`d just need a decent tech admin who actually did his job in order to make it happen.

Edit 2: At the moment, there is certainly no plan for any kind of "reward" for donations, other than the reward of the site continuing to operate. There might be some kind of a token reward thought up, but it would certainly NOT involve "having an increased say" compared to any of the other people on this site.

You don't get to say the first part and then get edit 2.  I mean, the reward is that you're someone the owner of the site has declared "really gives a fuck."

And here lies the problem I think Hinter is pointing out (as well as others).  If you go donations, the entire process needs to be anonymous.  Otherwise, you create a division.  And you can be sure as shit someone will bring it up - sooner or later.  I'm betting on you in the pool if it goes that way.

Finally, look at Hinter, or me.  Are we here for other motives? Would you assume that if we didn't donate?

It's just a bad path.  Might as well just charge us a fee, to be honest.

James Skatch's concerns mirror's mine almost exactly.  The only difference is I do think donations are preferable, but "it will certainly make it clear who really appreciates this site, gives a fuck about it, and who is here for other motives," does raise the Eyebrow of Skepticism.

Quote from: HinterWeltI would most likely not donate just to enable your dream of an RPG site. Sorry but true. I would purchase space on theRPGSite for the purpose of promoting my games. Honestly, one comes down to being a charity and the other is a business.

It's not as clear-cut as that. There exist also, "non-profit groups," such as local football clubs. A local football club (or Boy Scouts, or roleplaying club, etc) may accept money for advertising, but it's not a "business" in the sense you meant it - designed to make money. They accept money sufficient to keep themselves going; their club is not a "service", it's not a "charity", but it's not a for-profit "business." It's a non-profit community group. In such groups you have people who volunteer their time to keep the thing running, and you sometimes have for-profit companies paying for advertising. If Bob the Fruiterer of Wogga Falls paid for Wogga Falls football club's pullovers, there may be a label on each, "Bob the Fruiterer!" That doesn't make the football team a "business" in the sense you meant it.

I recommend the "non-profit community group" model as the one most likely to get paid advertising without any geek sense of entitlement - "I know my rights!" - or ill-will.

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's not as clear-cut as that. There exist also, "non-profit groups," such as local football clubs. A local football club (or Boy Scouts, or roleplaying club, etc) may accept money for advertising, but it's not a "business" in the sense you meant it - designed to make money. They accept money sufficient to keep themselves going; their club is not a "service", it's not a "charity", but it's not a for-profit "business." It's a non-profit community group. In such groups you have people who volunteer their time to keep the thing running, and you sometimes have for-profit companies paying for advertising. If Bob the Fruiterer of Wogga Falls paid for Wogga Falls football club's pullovers, there may be a label on each, "Bob the Fruiterer!" That doesn't make the football team a "business" in the sense you meant it.

I recommend the "non-profit community group" model as the one most likely to get paid advertising without any geek sense of entitlement - "I know my rights!" - or ill-will.

Jimbob,
In the US that is still a business so, yes, I meant business. NPOs are a corporation (usually), and this is a legitimate business model in the US so it is either going to be a business or a charity, from my POV. I have no idea about Uruguay. So in the US, you need to register your NPO and go through some hoops to make sure the government believes you're an NPO.

Now, does the local little league do it? Yes, if they are receiving compensation and wish to remain an NPO. It mostly has to do with tax exemption and whether the person donating the money wants a tax write off. Note: Technically this is what you call a "Community Organization" but is still classified as an NPO.

However, in usual spectacular form, you have missed my point. I could care less if Pundit goes to jail over the form of business of the site. It does not matter to me. I am simply stating my views on the proposed approach. I do not have my undies in a bind, but I am not going to blindly give money over to an internet site. Sorry, that could just be my take but I feel there are other organizations more deserving of my charity. In addition, I just believe it will cause problems. Whether theRPGSite is a form NPO or it si just JRients taking in PayPal donations, you will raise a lot of eyebrows and suspicions. Go with an advertising model (which can still be an NPO in the US at least) and you need only deal with a few advertisers.

That said, you would have to gauge interest. As I said before, I would pony up $100 for a years worth of banner ads on the forums.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThat said, you would have to gauge interest. As I said before, I would pony up $100 for a years worth of banner ads on the forums.

Bill

That makes 2 of us.

-clash

No, mate, you have missed my point.

You said "business." As we're not speaking to a group of lawyers, to most of the people you're speaking to, that will mean "for profit."

So I drew the line between "for profit" and "non-profit" to make that clear. therpgsite can accept advertising or donations or both, and be a non-profit organisation. I drew the comparison with the local football club so that people would get that.

Now, my personal advice is to go the non-profit community organisation way, but accept only advertising dollars. People are more inclined to give money if they're getting something tangible for it, and it'll avoid the problems others have mentioned, of people donating having a sense of entitlement, etc. therpgsite is already perceived as unfriendly to half its potential audience, we don't want it to be perceived as unfriendly to those who cannot or will not fork over some cash in a "donation drive."

Just sell some advertising, and aim to cover your costs, with a little set aside for leaner times, or server space price rises, etc.