Hello, this is the guy behind the Settembrini-Label speaking.
I positively don´t want to discuss or hear anything related to Thematic Games any more. The reasons are closely related to the recent revelations regarding the intended and emergent nature of their gameplay.
The matter is more complicated than just me getting annoyed. See, how a future discussion will be?
See, post 2006 discussions about Thematic gaming was bound to always at one time or the other come to brain damage. Now, every single discussion would at one point come to the recent revelations.
I definitely don´t want to discuss or be confronted with the need to discuss that stuff.
Is this against free speech? In some ways, it is. Although I firmly believe that Thematic games are RPGs, I also firmly believe not every RPG must be discussed at every site. We don´t discuss LARPS at theRPGsite after all.
And we don´t discuss Harry Potter simming neither.
Please, for the sake of civility, good taste and fun: Move all Thematic/Forger threads to the off-topic forae.
Regards,
Andreas
What about borderline stuff, like Spirit of the Century, or Conspiracy of Shadows? Who makes the judgement call?
-clash
Well, I´d trust the Pundit to make that call.
Or, at a weaker principle, a policy of instantly moving a thread to off-topic once it starts going into that direction.
Quote from: SettembriniWell, I´d trust the Pundit to make that call.
Or, at a weaker principle, a policy of instantly moving a thread to off-topic once it starts going into that direction.
OK.
-clash
Quote from: SettembriniWe don´t discuss LARPS at theRPGsite after all.
I really think that has more to do with no one starting LARP threads than any concious decision.
I think it would be smartest to treat Thematic Games just like LARPS.
Its connected, but different enough to warrant it´s own venue.
Actually most Thematicians are trying to teach us stuff that is akin to: "only LARP is real Roleplaying! Come, go LARPing!"
LARPers don´t do that.
I just want to go on record here - my "OK" to Sett meant "I think that Pundit is well qualified" to judge. It didn't mean "I agree 'thematic' games should be ostracised." I personally just ignore threads that get too messed up with them, because I'm not interested in them. I don't think they should be banned.
-clash
Quote from: SettembriniIs this against free speech? In some ways, it is. Although I firmly believe that Thematic games are RPGs, I also firmly believe not every RPG must be discussed at every site. We don´t discuss LARPS at theRPGsite after all.
And we don´t discuss Harry Potter simming neither.
Sounds like one small step down the road to the sort of elitism that get's Pundit's back up, to me.
See, this is not about elitism. I have elitism against Thematic Games going, no question. But it was lots of fun letting it hang out, and fighting the "War".
This is over. They are off into a direction I never expected, and it seems to have been like this quite some time.
I really, really do not think there can be any more fruitful discussion about these games. It will come to the point of bringing up the recent relevation, and I don´t think we want that.
I await the result with bated breath. Breath uncivil and unclean.
Not necessary. I'd rather see the forum-equivalent of the old 'K' command from rn (the popular Unix newsreader for Usenet). If a thread is hopeless, mark it as such and it disappears from your life, with no temptation to keep going back for more scandal and getting your licks in.
I don't see a problem discussing any rpg-related game in the rpg area. That's what the section is there for. If you don't want to discuss it, don't read the thread or unsubscribe from it. Unless someone is shilling or flaming, I can't fathom the need to do this.
If you are talking about the theory behind such games, then clearly those threads belong in Design and Theory, but Off-Topic makes no sense.
Well, that´s not the issue here. the issue here is that I don´t want to be on a site that is not clearly distancing itself from these games.
So, if it´s not delegated to off topic, I´d have to partake in that distancing.
Quote from: SettembriniWell, that´s not the issue here. the issue here is that I don´t want to be on a site that is not clearly distancing itself from these games.
So, if it´s not delegated to off topic, I´d have to partake in that distancing.
Have you ever stopped to think that some people don't want to partake in your drunken rants? There's a difference between moderating the so-called Swine and censoring them.
Settembrini, are you arguing that this site is not hostile enough to story games? For reals?
Quote from: SettembriniWell, that´s not the issue here. the issue here is that I don´t want to be on a site that is not clearly distancing itself from these games.
So, if it´s not delegated to off topic, I´d have to partake in that distancing.
You have some huge balls, you are bug fuck crazy, but you have huge wonderful balls.
Hey guys, I´m not talking crazy-war-fun here.
This is dead serious.
I see no fun in the recent revelations.
And I predict that every thread will discuss them, if no heed is taken. And I don´t want to hang out at a place where these are discussed.
Un-fun.
This is not about hostility. This is about keeping porn out of the playground.
But if you keep the Thematics, the porn will come with them. Unfun.
And I´m very serious about that.
You might think I´m a bit crazy right now, but you will see what comes around in the future. I see it already happening.
Think about it: Do you really want to discuss rape on a gaming site on a daily basis? I don´t.
I just don´t want to be bothered by that, on an RPG site.
Did I ever tell you about the time I had a male PC raped by a harpy in a game of RQ?
Hmmm...RPGsite. RPG.
DnD...Check.
Vampire...Check
Amber...Check
Nobilis...Check
Sorceror...comes from the Forge! It must be evil....no wait. Check
LARP...playing a role...ok then check.
De Profundis....not sure, but we let LARP in after all.
All RPGs. All of 'em.
Don't like a thread. don't read it.
Stumpey,
that´s not what I´m talking about.
As I´m seemingly unable to communicate that, you´ll have to figure it out by watching events unfold.
Quote from: SettembriniStumpey,
that´s not what I´m talking about.
As I´m seemingly unable to communicate that, you´ll have to figure it out by watching events unfold.
It seems a number of posters are not understanding your point. Could you provide links to specific examples on this site or others? Reading the thread, it would seem you have issue with the Poison'd game and there graphic AP. Me, I just ignored it. However, if there are more, please point them out.
Now, to me, it is all RPGs. I have wondered how long it would take to bring out the Us vs. Them censorship. It would seem this falls very easily into Pundits philosophies and has a good chance of going through. For the record, I oopse such measures. If it si so offensive and undesirable to the population, then it will go away on its own. In the end, it is Pundits site so it really does not matter what we think but what his take is.
It should be interesting to watch it unfold.
Bill
Okay, here is the thing:
Vincent Baker, the second most discussed Indie persona, who wirte the flagship game says this:
QuoteMe, Rich, Julia, John, Matt. Some other people watching for some of it, Julie, Ben, Ram. I was the GM. If you weren't at the table with us, then some of it, the best parts? You just don't get to know.
It's okay. There's plenty to tell. Let's start here. If you're delicate of sensibility, please cover your eyes now, okay?
It wasn't that I'd never played a game with rape in it before. Far from it - I've run towns in Dogs in the Vineyard that would curl your hair. It wasn't that I'd never played a game where a player character committed rape onscreen, not that either. Running kill puppies for satan all those times means that I've gotten pretty jaded about what PCs will do. By coincidence, it was the first game I've ever played where one PC raped another onscreen, but it wasn't even that. What it was was, it was the first game I've ever played where one PC raped another onscreen and everyone at the table liked it.
Remember this Perfect post (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=21226.msg219132#msg219132) of Ron's? Read the paragraph beginning "Brian provided a classic example of a Line in play..." It was a moment like the one he describes there, only the opposite: James Dobbins' player was watching us all to see if there was a line, and if he was about to cross it, and nope.
"Liked it." Jesus. But it's true. Raping Ebenezer was absolutely the right thing for James Dobbin's player to have James do. We at the table were like, holy fuck, but, fuck yeah. We laughed out loud because of how right it was. Because of what a monster former Captain Pallor had been and how he had visited his monstrousness upon all the characters in the game. The power vacuum he left behind was made of sex, violence, and their conjunction; to fill it, James Dobbins had to fucking FILL it.
Later in the game, Cuntface raped the governor's daughter. (Yes, the character's name was Cuntface. That's all you get to hear about that from me.) He didn't do a single thing that Errol Flynn wouldn't do - he scaled the wall, put his hand over the girl's mouth, fought off the guards with her slung over his shoulder, swing down the rope, took her aboard ship. We watched Cuntface's player tell about it with our mouths in thin lines, not laughing at all. Fuck, no, not fuck yeah. Oh Cuntface, you shouldn't. Shit.
Ebenezer had tried to castrate Cuntface. a) To subjugate him, yes. But also b) out of love, like a big brother's, to prevent this very thing. It's one thing for Ebenezer to rape and be raped. It's not cool when Cuntface does it.
Here's an important Poison'd GMing technique: "do you fight, or do you endure duress?" Enduring duress has the same mechanical benefits as everything else in the game, where fighting eats those benefits up, so the only reason to fight is because your character will. "Do you endure duress?" means that you can buy into even the most horrible experience for your character. It encourages a long view.
After the storm and the madness passed, while Cuntface was scaling the wall and fighting off the guards, Abyssinia, charged up with storm and madness, fucked James Dobbins. Threw open the door and bent him over. She had "a device," we called it. It had figured earlier, and you won't hear that part of the story from me either.
But. "Are you enduring duress?" I said.
"No," James' player said. "It's not that."
So, there you go. One rape no-holds-barred that made us laugh. One attempted rape I didn't tell you about. One romantic Errol Flynn rape where she was too scared to struggle and we didn't laugh at all. And one plain hard fuck.
You can uncover your eyes now.
Were we comfortable with what we did in the game? Yes. Well - we thought it was horrific, tragic, fitting, gruesome and bad. But whoever was talking, no matter how horrific and bad the things they were saying, never once did we wish they'd shut up.
After the game ended we sat and talked for another three hours or more, as friends. As, in fact, very good friends. None of us wanted to get up and go anywhere else. None of us wanted to open the circle to include anyone who hadn't been there. We split up for the night reluctantly and only very late. It was too good to leave behind.
-Vincent
Source. (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24749.0)
This is distasteful on too many levels too discuss. And it clearly shows what "story" is for them.
I cannot and will not tolerate this anymore. I will not look away when these individuals claim their games are just for RPG-fun. No, they are from another world. A different world with which I wish not to be bothered with. I do not claim onjective superiority here, I´m just saying: "No, these games have nothing to do and will never have anything to do with what I do for fun."
And I´m not going to sit side by side with these people or there followers, one way or the other.
And this WILL come up, time and time again, as long as these games are discussed.
"Is this against free speech? In some ways, it is. Although I firmly believe that Thematic games are RPGs, I also firmly believe not every RPG must be discussed at every site. We don´t discuss LARPS at theRPGsite after all.
And we don´t discuss Harry Potter simming neither."
Your words. could be paraphrased as "I don't want to talk about games that don't appeal to me" but thats a bit mean.
Is it to do with the current furore over Poison'd? Possibly.
But like I said upthread. Don't like a thread, don't read it.
Don't want "those threads" inhabiting the board, post your own.
hahahahahaha.
Best laugh I've had all day.
Not what they're talking about...but the fact that the person railing against it, seeking to get that kind of subject banned, is the one who posted it in the thread.
Priceless.
Well,
you really aren´t seeing it. Okay.
From your perspective, your arguments are valid. But you will understand, I fear. This is the big one, this is a grave issue I was not aware of, but now I am.
Stumpey,
are you dumb?
That´s what I´m talking about: You can´t talk about Thematic games anymore without talking about rape. That´s why they should go to off-topic.
And I hate that. I don´t want to talk about it, and even way more important, I don´t want to read other peoples thoughts about it.
EDIT: On a gaming site, that is.
You know what would be awesome? If we could sage things like on 4chan and it's ilk. Essentially "sage" allows you to reply to a topic without bumping it to the top of the front page. Or maybe not, I dunno.
Anyway, Sett I understand what you're saying but I disagree with your prediction. Chalk one more in the "against" column.
Sett,
You may be right.
That stuff is disturbing and unsettling on many levels.
- Ed C.
Actually, I think the coverage Baker's game has been and will be getting ensures that, so far from breaking into the mainstream, indie RPGs are in danger of being identified as this niche stuff where people with issues "explore" their, well, issues.
Over and above the yelling pro and con on rpg.net, what you don't see is lots of people quietly shaking their heads and walking away from it all.
I can see why somebody like Luke Crane would want to keep his distance from the online indie scene, dominated as it is by two nutjobs who are moreover nutty in exactly the same way.
But spreading that particular virus isn't harmful at all, au contraire. Let the APs speak for themselves.
Dein Wort in Volkes Ohr.
Hey, Luke Crane, Levi Kornelsen, if that´s the time you feel the need to distance yourself from these...individuals and their budding cults, this is the time!
Quote from: SettembriniStumpey,
are you dumb?
That´s what I´m talking about: You can´t talk about Thematic games anymore without talking about rape. That´s why they should go to off-topic.
IMO, such a thread should not be allowed because it really serves no purpose, so I agree with you on that count. BUT... not all games involve themselves with those themes, and you really can't lump them into the same category just because they are forgie or story games.
Quote from: SettembriniI cannot and will not tolerate this anymore. I will not look away when these individuals claim their games are just for RPG-fun. No, they are from another world. A different world with which I wish not to be bothered with. I do not claim onjective superiority here, I´m just saying: "No, these games have nothing to do and will never have anything to do with what I do for fun."
And I´m not going to sit side by side with these people or there followers, one way or the other.
And this WILL come up, time and time again, as long as these games are discussed.
By segregating them and yourself, you are 'looking away.' You are retreating, leaving them the territory. You are blinding yourself to their existence, by retreating to a forum where they can't intrude. You build walls about yourself, but do nothing to prevent them taking over everything else. You wanted a war, Sett? Wars are never fun. War is hell, and by retreating, you are letting them win.
I'm not in your war. What I saw in that quote was pathetic, juvenile, sick, twisted, and so achingly pseudo-intellectual it made my kidneys hurt. It wasn't cause for war, though. It was cause for paddling their britches, but I'm not their parent, and they aren't children. It is certainly cause for shunning them, on an individual level. War must have one goal, and one goal only, to crush the enemy's will to resist. If you aren't willing to do anything you have to do to gain that, you shouldn't be starting wars.
-clash
Quote from: Pierce InverarityActually, I think the coverage Baker's game has been and will be getting ensures that, so far from breaking into the mainstream, indie RPGs are in danger of being identified as this niche stuff where people with issues "explore" their, well, issues.
Over and above the yelling pro and con on rpg.net, what you don't see is lots of people quietly shaking their heads and walking away from it all.
I can see why somebody like Luke Crane would want to keep his distance from the online indie scene, dominated as it is by two nutjobs who are moreover nutty in exactly the same way.
But spreading that particular virus isn't harmful at all, au contraire. Let the APs speak for themselves.
My view on it. If they want to expose their diseases, let them. It's Nature's way of posting a neon sign saying "DON'T TOUCH ME!"
-clash
Quote from: pigames.netIMO, such a thread should not be allowed because it really serves no purpose, so I agree with you on that count. BUT... not all games involve themselves with those themes, and you really can't lump them into the same category just because they are forgie or story games.
Excellent point, Brett!
-clash
I can see what Sett is thinking here .. (finally) .
Is there any way to do that spoiler tag/fnord thing on here?
SJG calls them fnords, Big Purple calls them spoiler text or tags.
I know people cuss on here all the time, but this isn't like saying the words fuck and shit in the body of the message.
Maybe some kind of new function or altered function on here that hides text by saying "Hey, this is a bit too much even for most adults - but here is what I'm talking about"kind of 'hide-a-text' thing.
- Ed C.
Exactly.
Continueing to fight this war would mean to talk about rape on a constant level.
This might be seen as weak, but at least right now, I feel no inclination whatsoever to continue this war with these weapons.
It´s the line were an internet-pastime (Swine War) becomes something I don´t want it to be.
We´ll see. Maybe the ultimo lider and ThrallMASTER will enlighten us lowly fightin´men on how to wage this phase of the war.
Quote from: KoltarIs there any way to do that spoiler tag/fnord thing on here?
I'm sure it can be added to the system, but I don't see the point. People will view the hidden content as if it were a train-wreck.
(http://www.gulbransen.net/photos/paris/images/58.old-ladies.jpg)
"It's terrible the filth they're showing these days isn't it Ethel?"
"Oooo yes Doris! It's not like it was in our day!"
Can someone quickly clarify what the hell a "Thematic Game" is?
Is that what we're calling Forge-affiliated games this week?
Basically, but it´s actually in use for some time.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityActually, I think the coverage Baker's game has been and will be getting ensures that, so far from breaking into the mainstream, indie RPGs are in danger of being identified as this niche stuff where people with issues "explore" their, well, issues.
At some point, someone will realize that "indie games" are becoming the new furries.
Actually this is what they have become in my eyes as of this day.
Quote...niche stuff where people with issues "explore" their, well, issues.
Speaking of which, prepare for Viagra the RPG :pundit:
Quote from: pigames.netSpeaking of which, prepare for Viagra the RPG :pundit:
Well, the grognard market just keeps growing and growing... :haw:
Quote from: droog(http://www.gulbransen.net/photos/paris/images/58.old-ladies.jpg)
"It's terrible the filth they're showing these days isn't it Ethel?"
"Oooo yes Doris! It's not like it was in our day!"
Been there, done that, got the raped neck-hole. Adolescents obsess about the most idiotic things! Boooring!
-clahs
Quote from: SettembriniBasically, but it´s actually in use for some time.
Amongst Sett and his coterie, anyway.
-clash
Quote from: JongWKWell, the grognard market just keeps growing and growing... :haw:
Isn't that what you get Viagra for?
As for me... Depends.
-clash
Quote from: SettembriniHello, this is the guy behind the Settembrini-Label speaking.
I positively don´t want to discuss or hear anything related to Thematic Games any more. The reasons are closely related to the recent revelations regarding the intended and emergent nature of their gameplay...Please, for the sake of civility, good taste and fun: Move all Thematic/Forger threads to the off-topic forae.
Regards,
Andreas
Hi Andreas,
I share your discomfort with these themes and your concern that this turn of discussion will lead to more of it in the future. However, I do not think that your proposed solution is the correct response, for two reasons:
1. On a practical note, how will games be categorized as "Thematic"? Coming from particular authors? Publishers? Any small press game? The author's posting on a certain web site?
2. As a matter of principle, I also think that the best way to counter these trends is to have them out in the open so that they can be properly scorned/ridiculed/praised/ignored. In my experience, truly revolting ideas can only grow if they are not honestly addressed.
Now, on one hand, I have argued that responding in the thread in question is playing into the hands of the guerrilla marketers, but my silence *after* expressing this opinion is my response. If future discussions go in this direction, I suspect that if we as a group made our displeasure known and then ignored it, then it would not be a profitable thing to bring up here.
Can we realistically expect that theRPGSite community will not take the bait in the future? I don't honestly know, but I do not support putting constraints on discussion for a problem that does not yet exist and for which other solutions have not been tried.
As for me, I think that I'll just use the following shorthand:
Me -->:piss2::yarr:<-- Your Thread
A bit juvenile, I'll admit. But hopefully it will make my point.
Regards,
Scott
I don't support a topic ban, myself.
Post GenCon I have noticed the conspicuous absence of several forgies-- not just here, but across the network. More than three of the loudest mouths have fallen silent. There is a general mood of reassessment, of looking backwards. A certain amount of money has been lost. Reputations have fallen.
It is interesting. I think this is just something that happens to fads and the artistically bankrupt.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityActually, I think the coverage Baker's game has been and will be getting ensures that, so far from breaking into the mainstream, indie RPGs are in danger of being identified as this niche stuff where people with issues "explore" their, well, issues.
Yep. Fucked-up creeps will seek out these games where other fucked-up creeps explore their sado-sexual issues, and the rest of will step back and quarantine these sad losers.
Sett, properly define Thematic games. Because otherwise your attacking EVERY game that claims to convey a theme. So Vampire, Feng Shui, even Toon could be subject to your "topic ban"
I'm strictly against topic bans for any sub-genre of RPGs - be it Forge games, LARPs, De Profundis, simming or whatever.
To have generally an anti-swine stance is one thing. To actively censor by the means of clan custody is another thing, and not a desireable thing.
I probably wouldn't even censor Poison'd alone. Otherwise it could go like on the big purple when they censored brain damage, resulting in only praising the Forge and cutting out a valid argument against it out of the discourse.
If you don't like it, don't read it.
Quote from: SettembriniYou can´t talk about Thematic games anymore without talking about rape.
C'mon, take that "it's a black bird, so it must be a raven" argument away. It's just a single game that has arousen interest in a single AP report.
I assume it is just a temporary hype/fad that will vanish as soon as the gazers lost their initial interest, like it was the case with F.A.T.A.L. or like it was the case with brain damage. You still see them every now and then, but they are far away from being omnipresent.
We're not going to topic-ban anything. Talking about RPGs, even Storygame pseudo-rpgs, is allowed on the Main RPG forum.
However, if such talk is principally about (Real) theory rather than the game itself, it goes to theory. If such talk is about either political movements like the GNS/Forge movement, or individual forgista would-be celebrities like Baker or TonyLB, it goes to Off-topic.
RPGPundit
Quote from: hgjsCan someone quickly clarify what the hell a "Thematic Game" is?
Is that what we're calling Forge-affiliated games this week?
A "·thematic game" is Settembrini's made up term for "Storygames/forge games/indie games/whatever". No one uses it but him. Its extremely annoying, and springs out of the fact that Settembrini seems to enjoy talking in ways that make it harder for other people to understand him.
RPGPundit
Quote from: flyingmiceAmongst Sett and his coterie, anyway.
-clash
What coterie? I've never seen a single other person make use of that phrase, because its based entirely on sett's bizzaro ideology where he wants to abolish the word RPG and replace it with "adventure games" and "thematic games" or something like that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat coterie? I've never seen a single other person make use of that phrase, because its based entirely on sett's bizzaro ideology where he wants to abolish the word RPG and replace it with "adventure games" and "thematic games" or something like that.
RPGPundit
The coterie is those wonderful people in Sett's mirrors, of course!
I was hoping someone would ask! I did town it down from "legions of slavish followers," which was probably a bad decision in retrospect. Coterie is too reasonable a word for the purpose. :D
-clash
Quote from: RPGPunditWe're not going to topic-ban anything. Talking about RPGs, even Storygame pseudo-rpgs, is allowed on the Main RPG forum.
However, if such talk is principally about (Real) theory rather than the game itself, it goes to theory. If such talk is about either political movements like the GNS/Forge movement, or individual forgista would-be celebrities like Baker or TonyLB, it goes to Off-topic.
RPGPundit
I think the present system works perfectly. I also think the thread(s) that created the hubbub would die in a day or two, never to be reborn, if folks would just let them.
How about if I post and request feedback on the opening scene for my proposed amnesiacs campaign every time someone mentions the word "rape" in regards to an RPG? That seems to gaurantee that nobosy will reply to the thread. :)
Or in other words: ignore the shit and it goes away. Now get out there and talk about RPGs! (preferably by giving feedback to my thread) ;)
Well,
If everyone here agrees that they just have become the next furries, then this would be totally within the spirit of my OP.
Quote from: SkyrockC'mon, take that "it's a black bird, so it must be a raven" argument away. It's just a single game that has arousen interest in a single AP report.
I assume it is just a temporary hype/fad that will vanish as soon as the gazers lost their initial interest, like it was the case with F.A.T.A.L. or like it was the case with brain damage. You still see them every now and then, but they are far away from being omnipresent.
You seem to be underestimating the wide range of mental and moral corruption that is the Forge. All those games were only there for these purposes. That´s what "story" REALLY means to them.
That´s the elephant.
You can either pretend that is not so.
Or you adress it.
Or you ostracize.
There are no other options.
I still don´t like 1+2.
Also be aware that NOBODY from the Forgers distanced themselves from this stuff so far. The case is clear: "story" is now a placeholder for sick stuffTM, just like the inoccous term "anthropomorphic".
'Mental and moral corruption'--now you've really hurt my feelings!
You just run along back to your game of penis-compensation.
Quote from: SettembriniMental and moral corruption
Is that anything like Brain Damage?
Quote from: James McMurrayIs that anything like Brain Damage?
Sort of, except for serial killers. :D
Quote from: SettembriniWell,
If everyone here agrees that they just have become the next furries, then this would be totally within the spirit of my OP.
Yeah, I think I'm with you on that one.
Also, can one be both a proxie of the Pundit and a member of your coterie? I'm dying to know if I have to choose sides *again*.
Quote from: SettembriniI positively don´t want to discuss or hear anything related to Thematic Games any more. The reasons are closely related to the recent revelations regarding the intended and emergent nature of their gameplay.
No.
- "Thematic" games are, like GNS' Simulationism, ill-defined, and really meaning just, "I don't like it."
- This forum is not about the kinds of games any one poster likes, it's about all kinds of games. This does not mean that nobody can criticise others' games and play styles, just that everything is up for discussion - and criticism.
As to, "oh but the threads all turn nasty", that's got to do with the nasty content of the play involved, not the games themselves. I mean,
Dogs in the Vineyard hasn't had nasty threads, even though the game itself can quite easily have nasty play in it.
Just because a person has said something stupid or vile, or their game had some nasty play, does not mean it should not be discussed or taken seriously anymore. Our own RPGPundit, after all, compared Uncle Ronny to a serial killer. Does that mean we can no longer discuss
Sorcerer, or that RPGPundit's posts should all be shunted to Off Topic? Of course not.
Quote from: SettembriniWe don´t discuss LARPS at theRPGsite after all.
And we don´t discuss Harry Potter simming neither.
Only because nobody's brought them up. We don't discuss what we had for breakfast, but if the topic came up it'd be accepted. LARPS and Harry Potter stuff just hasn't come up, they're not banned topics or anything stupid like that.
Edit: I say to you, Settembrini, as I say to the Forgers: get a game group, mate. Everyone is a bit crazier with no game group. Everyone has crazy thoughts about gaming from time to time, then we sit down, roll dice and eat cheetos and remember the simple reality of it all, and it brings back down to Earth. You've been expressing a lot of crazy ideas lately, and from what I understand, you have no game group. Get a game group, mate.
PM sent, JimBob.
And goodbye!
EDIT: For those interested, I´m sick of JimBobs shtick that involves acting like a maliceful version of the special supportive Dad from American Pie. It´s distasteful as it is lame, and I elaborated on that in the PM.
Vale, Settembrini! Sic transit gloria mundi.
Quote from: jrientsYeah, I think I'm with you on that one.
Also, can one be both a proxie of the Pundit and a member of your coterie? I'm dying to know if I have to choose sides *again*.
No, no. My coterie is open to anyone.
@terminology Thematic Games: That´s Forger-approved terminology for naming their NARR games. As this is a distasteful thing these days, I henceforth will not call them this anymore.
Pundit was right from the start:
Ostracize the lawncrappers or they spoil the hobby. Their technical RPGness is s subversive measure to feature their ...special longings...
For all practical meanings they are not RPGs anymore to me.
As everybody seems to know what is meant by the term, I might use RapeStory-Game or somesuch other blatantly distancing term.
EDIT: And I hereby encourage any Levi, Luke or Paka to quickly distance themselves from these deviant old men.
And a touching PM it was, full of abuse and ranting! To abuse the person, then hit the ignore button, that's beautiful! Like a little kid throwing stones and then running away giggling. So moving!
For the record, Settembrini notes that he has a couple of games going. I'm glad to hear it. I hate to think of any gamer without a fun group to game with.
It just shows you can speak nonsense even when you do have a game group. But still, I do think that when you're without a game group you're more likely to speak nonsense about gaming, just as when you're single you're more likely to speak nonsense about intimate relationships. That's just human nature.
I hope Settembrini will tell us something about his campaigns he's in. As much as I enjoy mocking other people when they have a crazy game style, I'd rather read about what a person likes than what they hate. That's why I'd not want "Thematic games", whatever they are, to be shunted to some other subforum. I like to hear about how other people game, because there are almost always interesting ideas there. I have a lot to learn about gaming. Not, you know, too much to learn from people going "ass-rape! huhuhuhu cool." But still.
Edit: oh, and we should definitely ostracise the lawncrappers. If Vincent Baker ever comes here, I shall ostracise him in the strongest possible terms! But I'm not going to ostracise someone just because they like a oint to the events in their game session, or whatever the fuck "Thematic gaming" is.
Quote from: SettembriniTheir technical RPGness is s subversive measure to feature their ...special longings...
For all practical meanings they are not RPGs anymore to me.
As everybody seems to know what is meant by the term, I might use RapeStory-Game or somesuch other blatantly distancing term.
So if I start playing DnD, or Traveller for example, but I play them as rape fantasies and post the actual plays up for people to read and comment on, will they cease to be RPGs -or rather "Adventure Games" for you?
Why do I like Sett is the Power of Roleplaying Games, with me, a humble Excrucian?
Settembrini, topic - banning some RPGs because some people post disgusting APs of them is one of the most retarded things you have written here, in a long and distinguished career of writing retarded things about your fictitious war. Which is no little achievement, given the hard competency you have.
Poison'd is an RPG. It may be a shitty one, for all I know, but it is indeed an RPG. As it is Sorcerer, DitV and so on. I don't like that AP: is stupid shit, that I would have found puerile when I was 14. But topic banning the games which you don't like on the basis of a moronic AP? Fuck you.
They are RPGs, Imperator, as I´ve said several times in this threads.
But as LARPS and Harry Potter simming, I do not feel in any way to be in the same hobby.
Just as Boardgames technicall include Wargames, and Poker and MagicTG are technically Cardgames.
Due to the events of recent and ill refute, there is no way I´m wishing to be associated with this stuff, moreso I do not wish a table top RPGSite to be about them in any way.
Just as I don´t want to have furries here.
This is not about the war anymore, I´m out of this used-to-be-fun-endeavour of the war. I THOUGHT it was a culture war between story-wankers and adventure-wankers, a nice little meta-discussion of which way to play an elf in the basement is better than the other.
But it has become blatantly clear, that "story" and "theme" and "premise" are not idiotic/disputable terms for dramatic structure generation and collaborative storytelling, but veils for RapeStoryTelling.
And that the most prestigous and well-known games of that ilk are EXACTLY that. Not by accident, but by design.
Then, Sett, do the best thing you can: ignore them. Don't make threads about them. Don't give them free marketing.
Since Pundit and you started your ridiculous war on the Swine, nobody has done more for them than you. Nobody could ask for a better free promotion. You have linked and discussed threads in godforsaken forums that nobody would have never known if you didn't brought them to us.
Dude, each day I have more clear that, actually, you and Pundit work for IPR. Best viral marketing ever.
Quote from: SettembriniBut as LARPS and Harry Potter simming, I do not feel in any way to be in the same hobby.
Just as Boardgames technicall include Wargames, and Poker and MagicTG are technically Cardgames.
Due to the events of recent and ill refute, there is no way I´m wishing to be associated with this stuff, moreso I do not wish a table top RPGSite to be about them in any way.
Just as I don´t want to have furries here.
Got a question for ya, Chuckles. Who died and made you king?
Quote from: SettembriniIf everyone here agrees that they just have become the next furries, then this would be totally within the spirit of my OP.
I'll believe that when I see a
CSI episode about the Forge, with Grissom investigating a series of brutal murders inspired by
Poison'd and spending quality time with a sultry GM and her strange fetishes.
You need someone esle to tell you what is acceptable within your hobby, and what not?
I propose you evolve some kind of judgement of your own, and some will and desire to keep this hobby free of people with certain kinds of urges.
@stumpy: You must be dumb indeed. If I´m voicing my opinion, I´m obviously voicing my opinion.
Quote from: SettembriniYou need someone esle to tell you what is acceptable within your hobby, and what not?
I need some manner of evidence that this "Thematic Gaming" of yours could have anywhere near the kind of recognition that furries enjoy now. For that matter, you are probably making rather odd generalizations about furries, as well.
Quote from: SettembriniYou need someone esle to tell you what is acceptable within your hobby, and what not?
No, and that's why we don't need you or the Pundit telling to us, as well.
Quote from: StumpydaveGot a question for ya, Chuckles. Who died and made you king?
Zeus
Quote from: Settembrini@stumpy: You must be dumb indeed. If I´m voicing my opinion, I´m obviously voicing my opinion.
Theres clearly a language barrier issue here, and I know what you're saying and where you're coming from. But as these threads continue you come across more and more as dictatorial and inconsistent.
Coming out and saying "I wish to see all those whom I disagree with banned" strikes the wrong notes with all the wrong people. I'd give up if I was you.
Not disagreement with somebody is the problem anymore, I relished the flamewars, the disagreement, that used to be fun.
Please review the aims & goals of the most popular forger games as we know them now.
I´m argueing that they are not what is my hobby, or what I want to even see other people discuss on a fun-hobby-pastime site.
I´m just thinking ahead a little bit more it seems. As with the brain damage argument, the recent revelations will be brought up again and again.
This is already pointless. Don´t you see where this is going?
The only thing that would actually invalidate my line of thinking and the inevitable consequences of it would be if you could challenge this assertion:
You can´t talk about story-games without talking about rape anymore.
Do you challenge that assumption? Please bring forth arguments.
Quote from: SettembriniYou can´t talk about story-games without talking about rape anymore.
Can you talk about
D&D without talking about
FATAL?
Quote from: SettembriniAs with the brain damage argument, the recent revelations will be brought up again and again.
This is already pointless. Don´t you see where this is going?
Then why don't you stop doing it, matey?
Quote from: SettembriniPlease review the aims & goals of the most popular forger games as we know them now.
Other than (obviously) Poison'd, which games do you now think are written about rape?
Quote from: SettembriniThe only thing that would actually invalidate my line of thinking and the inevitable consequences of it would be if you could challenge this assertion:
You can´t talk about story-games without talking about rape anymore.
Do you challenge that assumption? Please bring forth arguments.
Yes, you can.
Watch.
Story-games, being those that concentrate on the more psychological aspects of the character and generating a thematic mood and ethos within which to unfold their story differ from the more stereotypical "Adventure Game" wherein characters are more akin to game pieces, with a strong dependence on rules and systems to acheive similar ends.
Story-games encourage a more artistic style of play, where playing the role and considering the characters thoughts and actions are more important than how strong they are or how fast - factors more important in something like D&D. Now I don't necessarily agree with what I've written, but I'll give you a pound for any mention of rape, or indeed any social taboo.
Okay, I get it. You are mocking me.
Or you are incredibly dumb.
The post you just made would totally, and rightfully be countered with the recent revelations. And off it would go.
q.e.d.
QuoteOther than (obviously) Poison'd, which games do you now think are written about rape?
Who am I to know? None of the forgers distanced themselves from this interpretaion of "deep, moving, fun, story"
It seems Little Fears, DitV and kill Puppies are about related stuff including rape and snuff-movie material.
In hindsight, all the stuff Ron Edwards talked about at the Spione event also get a different meaning. Ron always equalled story implicitly with "deep, moving relationship stuff".
Who am I to know where each one of them has their limits, except when taking them at face value?
And that is:
deep, moving = rape, murder, pedophilia, necrophilia, snuff, mutilation, torture etc.
Ron, Vincent and other forgers talk a lot about what certain media supposedly are REALLY about, and then they go on and twist genres to include and highlight what they think they are REALLY about. Now we know, what one of the most influential ones thinks when he´s talking "premise" and "story".
And they have a history of subversionary tactics.
DitV is known as a handholder game, a game that tricks people into the forgers little mind games and "special" interpretation of "deep, moving". DitV is ESPECIALLY designed for tricking people into their lines of thinking.
Again, as I see NOT A SINGLE person at the Forge or IPR that distances itself (Levi? Luke? not one!) from this shit, I must assume they all condone and subscribe to this hidden meaning of "premise" and "story".
The answer to this problem has always been the same: Stop posting about the stuff you don't like and start posting about the stuff you do, and be shamelessly happy about it.
Settembrini, I really truly am concerned that you are getting hysterical here. The lawn crappers are in the hobby. Vincent Baker and his band of merry imagination rapists are in the hobby. In my mind LARPing is a legit subset of the hobby. These things are not going away. Rail against them all you want. If Vincent Baker shows up here, call him nasty names. That's how things work around here. We don't censor people. We fight speech with speech.
Or, as another tactic, simply refuse to feed the beast. Given the structure of how this board works, the worst thing you can do is add to a thread you loathe. There's a reason why I made one calm but firm post early in the main thread on Poison'd. I wanted it to be clearly known that I find the material repellant, but I didn't want to give it any more exposure beyond a single reply. This thread is yet another car latched onto the Poison'd hype express.
By the way, I'm pretty sure that we have some members on this site who are furries. I know that furries are a common internet punching bag, but we've never had any problems with them here that I know I of.
I almost dated a "furry".
Without her costume on , she was pretty darn cute.
Never dated - but she did glom onto to me at the second con shje saw me at for an arm and a guy to hold onto. I didn't mind the attention and affection that weekend.
So, I don't really "get" furries - but I am hesitant to be that harsh toward them either. Their whole scene is not just the extreme stuff - thats just what makes the news.
STILL, it remided me that there are some people that make dressing up in a Klingon outfit for charity and fun look mainstream and even normal.
- Ed C.
Quote from: jrientsSettembrini, I really truly am concerned that you are getting hysterical here. The lawn crappers are in the hobby. Vincent Baker and his band of merry imagination rapists are in the hobby. In my mind LARPing is a legit subset of the hobby. These things are not going away. Rail against them all you want. If Vincent Baker shows up here, call him nasty names. That's how things work around here. We don't censor people. We fight speech with speech.
Well spoken, sir.
TGA
I value your opinion, but predict that things will not work like this.
As the off-topic move will not happen, as it stands, we´ll see what happens.
Quote from: SettembriniI value your opinion, but predict that things will not work like this.
I'd rather try and be wrong than give up on free speech so quickly.
Watch GrimGent and TonyLB´s new thread.
It´s already happening.
Alas, enough of this Cassandra-ism, nobody listened to her anyways.
I feel that everything has been said in this thread that is there to say.
I apologize to stumpy for calling him stupid.
Quote from: SettembriniWatch GrimGent and TonyLB´s new thread.
It´s already happening.
I'm guessing that you
don't mean my actual play (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7406) thread. But, frankly, I'd like to draw attention to the actual play.
I predict that I will
not be the first to introduce "rape" into the discussions in that thread ... though, of course, I can't help if someone else (you, for instance) wants to drag the discussion that far off topic.
I think that your notion that thematic games
cannot be discussed without discussing rape is daft. You've grabbed an extreme example, and now you want to use it to justify silencing a broad swath of people, purely because of your personal bias. This tactic didn't persuade people (thankfully) when Jerry Fallwell went after Hustler, and I don't think it will persuade people here.
Quote from: TonyLBI think that your notion that thematic games cannot be discussed without discussing rape is daft.
I think Sett is right about that part. Rape is the new brain damage.
Tony, your chance:
What is your opinion on the recent revelations?
EDIT: You answered that. To paraphrase you:
"It´s a dark story. Dark storys are good."
q.e.d, as I have predicted and concluded, see my "deep, moving story" equation upthread.
Farewell.
Quote from: SettembriniWatch GrimGent and TonyLB´s new thread.
Mrh? I have a thread now? When did that happen?
Quote from: jrientsI think Sett is right about that part. Rape is the new brain damage.
Uh ... okay.
Maybe you can explain it without Sett's hyperbole, then ... why would discussing a thematic game where rape wasn't even an issue inevitably involve discussing rape?
I wish it to be noted in the Logbook that every single guy we quickly accused of being a viral-marketeer is now at this very time defending the equation
"moving, deep story" = rape, torture, snuff, pedophilia, necrophilia etc. to be initiated, indulged and elaborated by the PCs.
as to be a valid, healthy and natural form of Roleplaying.
Even though all the hardcore "Warfighters" like AM, Pundit and me basically remain silent in these threads. They come and flock. Like flys drawn to a pile of crap.
Go figure.
Honestly, I wouldn´t have thought Tool-Tony to be on that ship, but you can´t look into people, do you?
Luke Crane, what´s your take on it?
Burning Rape?
Show your colours!
Levi? for god´s sake, don´t disappoint me. What does the Turtle Man say?
Did you miss something? Levi's gone.
Sett, I think you've got a subsets problem, where you're applying the characteristics of a subset to the entire group. While rape, torture, etc. may be deep and moving stories, not all deep and moving stories will be rape.
Or in other words, prove that your reversal of categories is valid. For the record, "Just watch" or something similar will be scoffed at as an evasive response because of inability to prove your hypothesis.
He can make his stance known on the whole of the internet. So far, he´s said:
"OK" to it at the Forge. Which I think was shocking.
They don´t speak up against that shit.
The ones that do speak up, defend it.
Insert your own thoughts.
Jim,
At this very time it´s upon THEM to show their colours.
Right now (se above post) one must assume they all condone it. This is not vile or unfair thinking. It´s a logical conclusion.
And when asked, at least Tony also said he condones that.
I love that style of thinking. Currently I'm convinced you're a jew-hating, goose-stepping Nazi and should be banned from the internet. After all, you're German, right?
Or is prejudice only fair when it's used to label others?
Well, if it was 1945, it would actually be my fucking duty to prove that I was not a Nazi.
EDIT: And if you would actually read what ir write, you would see that all the Forgers active at this site have ALREADY condoned and supported that gameplay.
Ah yes, the old Guilty until proven Innocent maneuver. It's a shame your thinking hasn't kept up with the rest of the civilized world. :rolleyes:
Do you realize exactly how much a portait of yourself you're painting in this thread? It used to be "Sett's a loon, but he's obviously a charaicature." But not you've stepped outside your online persona and showed that the man behind the mask is also a charicature. Priceless! :D
I think you are the carricature.
Because you cannot read.
Quote from: James McMurrayI love that style of thinking. Currently I'm convinced you're a jew-hating, goose-stepping Nazi and should be banned from the internet. After all, you're German, right?
Or is prejudice only fair when it's used to label others?
Dude, the REASON it seems quite unreasonable these days to say "every german is a nazi" is because the Germans, collectively as a people, have gone to IMMENSE lengths to disavow the entire Nazi philosophy and movement.
Back in 1946, it would have DEFINITELY been the requirement of every individual German to personally publically reject Hitler and the Nazi movement.
In other words, the reasons that the typical Forgers are "lumped in" with "Brain Damage" Ron and "Throatfucker" Vince is that they have NEVER managed to step up and disavow these people. On the contrary, on every occasion they have been given the opportunity to do exactly that they have chosen to try to excuse them, to hem and haw, to make half-apologetics, and to generally flip-flop.
So one is left assuming that they're all on board with things like Brain Damage and fucking the esophagi of decapitated boys.
RPGPundit
To be fair to Sett, few people in this thread have treated him as if he were stepping out from behind his online persona in it - I can see why it would be easy to fall back into old posting habits.
Okay,
Brantai has apoint, I´m reacting a bit more harshly than the connection to greater non-RPG reality would dictate.
But I´m still dead-serious about it, no bullshit maneuvres here.
Jim,
In good will, I´ll explain to you:
If we would give the benefit of the doubt to any single Forger, we would need to discuss rape and his stance and special case with every single one of them. Which is exactly the problem of the OP.
Alas, the current situation looks like all the Forgers who have spoken up thus far, condone it. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM has said anything distancing themselves from that. When brain damage happened, Levi was one of the first to call that bullshit, without some Settembrini guy asking for it.
So. Why should we, or I give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation right now?
Why should I give each single one of them a special treatment?
No, as you finely alluded, this is a basically irrelevant gaming site. And I want it to keep it as such. Irrelevant, light hearted and blokey.
Discussing rape and the special snowflake stances of dozens of people on it is not what I wish this site to be
about.
Thusly, I think it is totally reasonable to ask for THEM to distance themselves from this playstyle. So far I´ve only seen even graver transgressions, like this (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24763.0). Where the poster even mixes general playstyles into the mix. Gamist he calls it. Now, what does that tell us about the game, the poster, the model, and the community?
Look, dramatic demands for equally dramatic public distanciations, which for obvious and partly understandable reasons won't be forthcoming, aren't useful.
Nor are they necessary. Let there be one, two, many Poison'd threads. To repeat: In this case, marketing is your friend.
In short:
You have more trust in the general public than I have in that regard.
I believe you may be overreacting a tad, Sett. However, I have tried my damnedest to wash my hands of the Forge community and the Story Games crowd on the internet.
I look at that market like I look at the rest of the RPG market, if the game looks cool, I'll pick it up. If it looks stupid (like Kill Puppies for Satan, Poison'd, Shock, or Polaris) I won't pick it up. If it looks cool, I will.
I really could give less than two shits who the authors are or their "independence" or any of that claptrap.
Pundit, it does not suprose me in the least that you support the idea of treating all Forgers and Story-Gamers with prejudice. Amuses me. But does not surprise me.
Quote from: SettembriniIf we would give the benefit of the doubt to any single Forger, we would need to discuss rape and his stance and special case with every single one of them. Which is exactly the problem of the OP.
Why do you have to talk to them about anything? If rape gets mentioned in a way you're uncomfortable with, do like so many have done with your so-called war: ignore it or point and laugh. By ostracizing them you legitimize them by admitting they have power over your discourse.
QuoteAlas, the current situation looks like all the Forgers who have spoken up thus far, condone it. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM has said anything distancing themselves from that. When brain damage happened, Levi was one of the first to call that bullshit, without some Settembrini guy asking for it.
So what? They're not all participating in the discourse, which is tacit disapproval. Just because they're not old ladies out on their porch screaming that "things were better in my day!" doesn't mean they're at home wanking off to games about fucking children's heads. It doesn't even mean they approve of it. What it means is that they don't want to talk about it.
QuoteSo. Why should we, or I give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation right now?
Because prejudiced behavior is moronic. It degrades you much more than your rants have ever degraded them.
QuoteWhy should I give each single one of them a special treatment?
Ignoring people and/or laughing at them isn't special treatment.
QuoteNo, as you finely alluded, this is a basically irrelevant gaming site. And I want it to keep it as such. Irrelevant, light hearted and blokey.
Liar. If you wanted it light hearted you wouldn't spend so much of your time, even pre-Poison'd, atacking other people because they disagree with you. You'd, I don't know, maybe post some light-hearted and irrelevant fun stuff.
QuoteDiscussing rape and the special snowflake stances of dozens of people on it is not what I wish this site to be
about.
Then stop doing it. Discuss the things you want the site to be about.
QuoteThusly, I think it is totally reasonable to ask for THEM to distance themselves from this playstyle. So far I´ve only seen even graver transgressions, like this (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24763.0). Where the poster even mixes general playstyles into the mix. Gamist he calls it. Now, what does that tell us about the game, the poster, the model, and the community?
I don't know, and I never will, because talk about that stuff doesn't interest me so I'm not going out and looking for it. If you truly were concerned about this site, you wouldn't give a shit about what they're doing on that site. But since you're over there digging around looking for stuff, it's pretty obvious this is just another sad attack in your ongoing War with reality.
Says a lot about the guy named Andreas to me. And nothing I like.
I think I understand Andreas' alarm a bit better now, thanks to Pundit's last post. Sett comse from a culture where, for particular and convincing reasons, "Not Disavowing" is equivalent to "Accepting." It the USA and Canada at least, that is not the case. You do not have to answer "Yes or No" to "Have you stopped beating your wife." It might have been different here during the McCarthy witch hunts, but not now. If someone asked me "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" I could reply "I refuse to dignify that question with a response" and few would thinkthe less of me for doing so.
I still don't agree with him, but at least I think I see where he's coming from.
-clash
James,
you are missing the point. No matter how lowly you might think of me for whatever reason, the facts remain.
All Story-Games discussion will gravitate toward a discussion of rape, torture and the like.
Even more, all other discussions will live unter the damoclean sword of being steered in that direction.
You could say, that you don´t care about that, fair enough.
My predictions are different.
Along with TGA, I applaud Jeff's position on this.
Really, a huge amount of the crap which we've seen here, going back a long way, comes from people here going out looking for crazy stuff and bringing it back here. I may have done so myself, though I'm pretty sure it was never as the launching point for a thread.
While Pierce is also correct--that the exposure of craziness is likely to lead to a bigger rejection--if you don't want to see it here, don't bring it here. Sett, I trust that we won't see any more linkage to The Forge, Story Games, or RPGnet. I wish we could convince Pundit and JimBob to do likewise.
You want this site to grow and stand on its own two legs? Stop being a parasite off of other sites.
Consider this criterion for starting a thread that's inspired by another forum: Is the topic itself worth debating, or are you just pointing at the silly monkeys? If the former, then rephrase the question, don't attribute (it's really not necessary) and carry on from there. If the latter, don't bother.
Of course a few Forge zombies will wander in, but when they start in with the doctrinaire Bizarro-talk, you insist they express themselves in plain English or define their terms precisely without reference to some dodgy bunch of external threads and half-baked essays. If they can't or won't do that, then by all means unleash the hounds.
Really Sett? Every discussion?
Watch this thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24765.0), and wait for the rapes and tortures. It's even an Actual Play Report, which must put it square in the danger zone, right?
If it ever happens, I'll admit you're right. But please feel free to hold your breath. :)
--
For those that don't want to follow the link, I won't cut and paste the whole thing because it's not really topical, but the gist of it is that it's an Actual Play report about a new Story Game called Land of 1,000 Kings. It's not a game I could see myself playing with my group (too much "sharing and caring" in the mechanics). But overall, as shown in this AP, it seems to work very well with parents and children. The guy recounts a couple of sessions with his kids. I'll be incredibly shocked if rape ever enters the conversation.
Why do you post the link?
Because of it´s relation to rape.
The ship already sailed.
The ship on your sanity?
Goodbye.
Quote from: SettembriniWhy do you post the link?
Because of it´s relation to rape.
You're fucking insane.
No, I´m just thinking thoroughly.
Why did Jim post the link?
Answer that question to yourself.
Would this be a good time to suggest that if someone cannot read a thread about, say, Faery's Tale without starting to have violent thoughts, the problem might not lie with the game?
This is sophistry.
Did I relate those two one week ago? No.
Now, there is no way around that.
Quote from: SettembriniDid I relate those two one week ago? No.
Now, there is no way around that.
Hmm.
"A Ranger with the Favoured Enemy: Orcs."
"Ethnic cleansing."
Can you still play D&D?
Neither D&D, nor Gary Gygax nor Monte Cook get a boner by imagining and elaborating on the acts of genocide.
So, yes, I can freely think, talk and play D&D.
But you are still calling for penalties against something solely on the basis of your personal mental associations. Is it really so difficult to understand how that might seem absurd?
Quote from: flyingmiceI think I understand Andreas' alarm a bit better now, thanks to Pundit's last post. Sett comse from a culture where, for particular and convincing reasons, "Not Disavowing" is equivalent to "Accepting." It the USA and Canada at least, that is not the case. You do not have to answer "Yes or No" to "Have you stopped beating your wife." It might have been different here during the McCarthy witch hunts, but not now. If someone asked me "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" I could reply "I refuse to dignify that question with a response" and few would thinkthe less of me for doing so.
I still don't agree with him, but at least I think I see where he's coming from.
I don't believe that this is the reason behind it. I'm a German myself, and "not disavowing" isn't "accepting" for me, nor is it "disapproval". It's an unclear and muddy area, suspicious for sure, but not proven reporting oneself for a commited crime. The presumption of innocence is here also an important value, and even more since Denazification.
Of course, the air of suspiciousness could be enough for Set to assume unkosher thinking, although for me there are to many "could be"s involved to make this lead worth following.
Personally, for not disavowing/commenting in this special case I'd simply assume as default either simple ignorance, even more simple disinterest and/or sitting out the fad. Not everything is worth to be talked about, and the Poison'd incident belongs for me definitively into this area.
The Forgers are not a general populace. They are an ideological movement.
And if anyone in a political party makes something controversial, it´s expected for everyone within that party to declare his stance on that.
Because their foundation is shared ideology and methods, so they can´t cop out with the assumption of "innocence" once it gets ugly.
It´s shared ideology, so if somebody doesn´t share parts of it or doesn´t condone their leaders actions, it´s upon himself to distance him from that.
Quote from: GrimGentBut you are still calling for penalties against something solely on the basis of your personal mental associations. Is it really so difficult to understand how that might seem absurd?
I do not understand those sentences. Sorry.
I do see a huge difference between a game were the designer sits down to be able to play out his sick sexual fantasies while pretending to be smart, and a Ranger.
There is a huge mental, cultural and health gap between these two.
EDIT: GrimGent, do you think the recently revealed APs show a valid and desirable form of playing RPGs?
RPGPundit has already given his statement on this issue, but as people are still talking, I'd like to explain my position.
Settembrini:
I'm no fan of Forge games, and in general wouldn't be displeased if no discussion of them went on here or anywhere else.
However, I think RPGPundit made a good point in one of his recent blog entries: theRPGsite is one of the few forums for frank discussion of Forge games. Elsewhere discussion is either banned outright, or criticism is prohibited, meaning that only positive messages may be spread. Granted, this gives them exposure. But given the small size of this board, I feel that any such gain would be negligible, and outweighed by the benefit to the larger community of (normal) roleplayers of having a place to read and write openly on the merits or lack of merits of those games.
Given that, in combination with the value this site places on free discussion, right now I don't think discussion of Forge games should be banned.
Set:
Even in politics, not everyone and his dog reacts to the leaders mishappenings. People close up on the food chain or from direct personal environment for sure, but you won't see a CDU mayor react on chancellor Merkels musings, as well as the Baden-Württemberg regional parlament remainend mostly silent during the Filbinger funeral eulogy scandal by prime minister Oettinger (and they've done so damn right - damned if they piss on their leaders leg for disapproving to him, damned if they confess their approval of Filbingers nazi actions too).
Moreover, I don't see a political party in the Forge, It's more a school of thought, and even as such it is pretty scattered and ununified. There you have the old man Ron Edwards who still believes in GNS, a load of people who remain silent on this matter, a TonyLB who openly dismisses GNS, and I've not even started on the Forge/Storygames schism, the difference between Hanseatic and US Forge teachings, or other big rifts which make the GNS disaccord look like a picnic. It's hard to call this splintered mess a single ideological movement.
Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: GrimGent, do you think the recently revealed APs show a valid and desirable form of playing RPGs?
Would I want to see the more extreme atrocities from those APs described in any game that I run? Nope, couldn't say that I do. Would I condemn scenes like that as an inherently
invalid form of gaming, something that no one should under any circumstances be
allowed to play through, even in private, even with the complete consent of everyone involved? Again, nope: I'm not going to elevate myself into a position of moral authority over the games of others.
Quote from: GrimGentWould I want to see the more extreme atrocities from those APs described in any game that I run? Nope, couldn't say that I do. Would I condemn scenes like that as an inherently invalid form of gaming, something that no one should under any circumstances be allowed to play through, even in private, even with the complete consent of everyone involved? Again, nope: I'm not going to elevate myself into a position of moral authority over the games of others.
I did not ask you what would you do as a law-giver.
I´m asking the moral law within yourself.
What do you think of people doing this?
QuotePeople close up on the food chain or from direct personal environment for sure, but you won't see a CDU mayor react on chancellor Merkels musings,
Ah well this is wrong. Mayors do this all the time. All politicians do this ALL THE TIME. Sure national media doesn´t cover it. But it´s happening.
And with regards to the "scattered" nature of the forge, my evaluation is contrary to yours. Coordinated shilling, thread subversion, marketing. They watch each others backs, as hard as they can. Even your beloved Tony is a proponent of RapeStoryGames as of his own confession today. And he was actively trying to cover their collective asses.
Quote from: SettembriniWhat do you think of people doing this?
Hollian for one showed a capacity for violent fantasies and a certain carelessness in flaunting them to others, so in the case of similar scenes I'd look carefully into their motives, but still try to learn as much as possible about the circumstances before making any judgments. Would I hesitate to approach a perfect stranger known to play like that? Perhaps for a while I'd keep my distance and get a chance to evaluate his behaviour further. Would I remove a player whose character constantly engages in graphic or explicit acts which make the others uncomfortable? Yes. Would I break off a friendship or even a casual acquaintance over something like the APs? Of course not.
It's none of my business what people do with their time, as long as they don't harm others (at least against their will).
Quote from: SettembriniAh well this is wrong. Mayors do this all the time. All politicians do this ALL THE TIME. Sure national media doesn´t cover it. But it´s happening.
At least in my part of the country it isn't even covered in local media, and what's the point of confessionals that nobody hears about? (OK, there are exceptions. But mostly it's either whining when some politico above local level cuts some budget, or a well-planned whack on unpopular stances (e.g. Tätervolk) to move up in public opinion. Real confessions are far more seldom.)
Quote from: SettembriniThey watch each others backs, as hard as they can. Even your beloved Tony is a proponent of RapeStoryGames as of his own confession today.
He said that a raven can claim to be a true black bird, not that every true black bird has to be a raven:
Quote from: TonyLBThe whole rape/necrophilia thing that came out of Poison'd? That's a fuckin' dark story. But it's just a story. I think it's fine to tell sick, dark, nasty stories.
That's a liberal POV I can morally totally accept.
Quote from: RPGPunditIn other words, the reasons that the typical Forgers are "lumped in" with "Brain Damage" Ron and "Throatfucker" Vince is that they have NEVER managed to step up and disavow these people. On the contrary, on every occasion they have been given the opportunity to do exactly that they have chosen to try to excuse them, to hem and haw, to make half-apologetics, and to generally flip-flop.
I'm not really up on this Forge hate thing, but I have to admit I've been dismayed by people who it seems are defending Poison'd and its designer for no other reason that they feel part of the same gaming movement or community. Why do some people have so much trouble passing judgement on vile shit just because of who wrote it, or because of some goofy internet gaming factions?
Maybe they really do support Baker's approach to gaming. Maybe most storytellers really do see sado-sexual psychodrama as the summit of gaming. Maybe they really do think RPGs should be about pushing the limits of brutality, abuse, sadism, and masochism to generate an emotional catharsis. Maybe they really do think people can work out genuine personal issues by acting out the most savage and vulgar human behaviour using a role-playing game.
Given the prominence of the advocates of this style of gaming, and the silence of other people who self-identify with the Forge and storyteller games, I think it's fair to ask people in that community to step up and say how they actually feel about it. The honest people would probably be better served by saying where they stand on the issue of S&M gaming, rather than march off to combat against anyone who expresses disgust at the terribly misguided and pathological play some of these games are intended to generate.
Quote from: SkyrockThat's a liberal POV I can morally totally accept.
Really?
OK.
I´m rather shocked.
I would like to think that you haven´t really gotten the gist of what he is saying, and the political implications contained.
He says, what Vincent did was cool with him. Is Vincents, or Temples AP, is this cool with you?
Quote from: HaffrungThe honest people would probably be better served by saying where they stand on the issue of S&M gaming, rather than march off to combat against anyone who expresses disgust at the terribly misguided and pathological play some of these games are intended to generate.
"S&M gaming?" Eh, I have nothing against that in itself, although it's certainly not something that you should foist on unsuspecting bystanders.
Of all things, THIS has you worried, Grim?
I´m shaking my head.
Quote from: SkyrockI don't believe that this is the reason behind it. I'm a German myself, and "not disavowing" isn't "accepting" for me, nor is it "disapproval". It's an unclear and muddy area, suspicious for sure, but not proven reporting oneself for a commited crime. The presumption of innocence is here also an important value, and even more since Denazification.
Of course, the air of suspiciousness could be enough for Set to assume unkosher thinking, although for me there are to many "could be"s involved to make this lead worth following.
Personally, for not disavowing/commenting in this special case I'd simply assume as default either simple ignorance, even more simple disinterest and/or sitting out the fad. Not everything is worth to be talked about, and the Poison'd incident belongs for me definitively into this area.
Thanks for claifying things a bit, Skyrock.
-clash
Quote from: SettembriniI did not ask you what would you do as a law-giver.
I´m asking the moral law within yourself.
You're like a little German Yoda, it's awesome.
Hey, the most graphic act of violence that's happened in any of my games this year was probably that time when a PC ate someone's still-beating heart. I can't say that I'm overly worried.
Quote from: SettembriniHe says, what Vincent did was cool with him. Is Vincents, or Temples AP, is this cool with you?
This one doesn't have anything to do with the ban or non-ban of thematic games, but as I'm directly asked: I think the concrete incorporation of heavy-handed stuff in both APs is disgusting, creepy and something I would never want to see on my own table.
However, it's something whichs existence I can accept, as long as no one who doesn't give his agreement comes to harm - in the same sense that I can accept the religion of the Muslim next door as long as he harms no one else, although I consider a strict pork ban in the age of fridges as laughable and anachronistic.
I´m not asking for the UN to send troops to stop them playing.
I just want them out of my hobby. Period.
EDIT: The notion "let and let live" is the basis for civilization. This is not up for debate, and everybody bringing it up is sounding pretty inane in my eyes.
Quote from: GrimGentHey, the most graphic act of violence that's happened in any of my games this year was probably that time when a PC ate someone's still-beating heart. I can't say that I'm overly worried.
I mean you defend the RRs, but are worried by the effect S&M gaming could have on outsiders? How about Baber-snuff?
Quote from: SettembriniI mean you defend the RRs, but are worried by the effect S&M gaming could have on outsiders? How about Baber-snuff?
The very soul of discretion, that's me: I respect people's right to privacy and not having the kinks of others shoved in their faces. But still, unfortunately I don't know what you mean by "RRs" or "Baber-snuff."
Quote from: SettembriniI´m not asking for the UN to send troops to stop them playing.
I just want them out of my hobby. Period.
I'm thinking Thematic Games haven't changed the way you and your group(s) play one bit. So you're hobby is quite safe. I'm afraid it's not your hobby to define though outside of that arena.
This site is also my hobby.
And right now I see it going down in flames.
EDIT: And the argument :"Why do you care, it´s only the internet" is also inane.
Quote from: GrimGentThe very soul of discretion, that's me: I respect people's right to privacy and not having the kinks of others shoved in their faces. But still, unfortunately I don't know what you mean by "RRs" or "Baber-snuff."
Recent Revelations
Baker-snuff
Quote from: SettembriniI´m not asking for the UN to send troops to stop them playing.
I just want them out of my hobby. Period.
Question: How have thematic games, their users and/or their inventors ever invaded your adventure gaming hobby? The first Forge adventure game has yet to be written[1], and the occasional forays into D&D and other adventure games by Forgies are even a smaller annoyance than all Shadowrun jelly ammo nazis put together.
[1] Unless we count TRoS, which is now for... 3 or 4 years no more part of the Forge?
Quote from: SettembriniRecent Revelations
Baker-snuff
In a number of ways those bare snippets of APs struck me as rather juvenile attempts to shock and gross out, not unlike some session accounts from "traditional RPGs" that I've seen. If PCs in games like D&D never raped and murdered, sometimes simultaneously, you might have a case for something new and shocking. As things stand, it's unpleasant but not unprecedented.
EDIT:
@skyrock:
Fuck, I´m talking about this Site!
They are invading this site!
Right now!
And on a graver issue: forcing us to talk about Rape in gaming!
I don´t want to discuss that!
That easy!
Quote from: SettembriniI don´t want to discuss that!
Then don't. It
is that easy.
That would only work at a place where there are no Story-Games discussions.
Or teenagers who like guro and playing the nastiest Chaotic Evil villains that they can come up with? Because I've seen far worse things posted by people like that.
Quote from: SettembriniEDIT:
@skyrock:
Fuck, I´m talking about this Site!
They are invading this site!
Right now!
And on a graver issue: forcing us to talk about Rape in gaming!
I don´t want to discuss that!
That easy!
Ah, then I misunderstood what you meant with hobby. Thought you were talking again on the ARS/TRS/EZ triangle.
In that case, it all comes down to what an invasion is and what the intents and schemes behind the current spawned of threads are.
The first would be a question of definition - and as the whole Swine War talk showed, not a question where a consensus can be found.
The second one however would be a question of telewritten telepathy and other augury, as the Forgies wouldn't tell us straight in our faces
if they had any secret schemes up their sleeves (what I doubt) - something where a consensus is even more far away than in the question of the War, and that should mean a lot.
As I said, I suppose it's simply a momentarily fad. If the Poison'd discussion is still that active and spawning in one or two weeks, we may look for possible actions, but as of now, I think it's extremely uncertain to assume a greater upcoming pattern. All of the users in this thread except you seem to agree on this (even the Pundit, who usually doesn't hesitate to smack the Forge and its affiliates).
Quote from: RPGPunditWe're not going to topic-ban anything. Talking about RPGs, even Storygame pseudo-rpgs, is allowed on the Main RPG forum.
However, if such talk is principally about (Real) theory rather than the game itself, it goes to theory. If such talk is about either political movements like the GNS/Forge movement, or individual forgista would-be celebrities like Baker or TonyLB, it goes to Off-topic.
Based on the site owners criteria, they haven't invaded the sight, they are as welcome as you are Sett.
Sett, I've honestly been thinking about this thread all day. I hope I'm not on your Ignore List.
You're right. 100%, I think. When you find the forum that let's me ignore this kind of stuff, PM me or email me at joewolz (at) joewolz (dot) com, because I'm outta here, folks.
I'm done with the arguments and the negativity. Maybe I'll see you guys around the Troll Lord Games forums or elsewhere.
Good Night, and Good Luck.
[message deleted]
Quote from: Haffrung[message deleted]
...But I'll reply to it anyway. Are murder and rape and torture central to the games played by those teenagers, you asked, and the answer is of course "yes." That is why some people play in the first place, and why would it be otherwise just because the game happens to be
D&D? And what makes you think that characters in
Poison'd have no purpose to their lives except random mayhem? (But then again, I forget: no one here wants to know about the actual game.)
Quote from: GrimGent(But then again, I forget: no one here wants to know about the actual game.)
Well, I do. I suppose I'll have to buy it and round up a group.
Quote from: droogWell, I do. I suppose I'll have to buy it and round up a group.
From what I've been reading - I wouldn't expect Kyle Aaron to play in that group.
- Ed C.
After some sleep, I made up my mind.
I thought about quitting, but I ´ve honestly invested too much in this site to just abandon it.
What I´m going to do, what I motion every other person to do:
Posting Strike.
As long as any thread containing and discussing the Recent Revelations is on the first page of the forae, I will not post anything whatsoever.
This has two effects:
1) It shows my position. I do not wish that my threads or threads I´m interested in sit next to threads containing discussions of the RR.
2) It doesn´t fuel the fire. Instead it actively
takes fuel away from the fire.
Until the condition depicted comes to be, I´ll only be answering questions regarding the Posting Strike in this thread, and nothing else.
Please join me.
- Andreas
Now begins
"The Silence of the Tasteful"
All you people with good tastes, join in, tell your tasteful-brethren (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiKdJoSsb8) and sis-thren about it!
Solidarity against unfun and inappropriate subjects!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS1i-uui-Ic)
Claim the streets with banners saying " "!
Man the Walls of Silence!
Don´t let yourself be dragged into the filth that is the minds of some old, unsuccessful, looney, academically cul de sacced, deviant, half-educated, sex and violence obsessed, sectarian,oblivuous, dignity-less and especially tasteless slightly fat men!
Don´t mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQhAc6RNqI) in deviant psychological therapy with the folk-games of your land!
:rolleyes:
Call me naive, but i've never, ever been exposed to any kind of the subjects that have been cropping up lately as 'suitible to explore' in an RPG. I have not read a gaming product that explores these themes and have certainly never played in a game with these themes. Until a week or so ago, i was happy in my ignorance. Now, i ain't so happy. In fact, i'm decidedly unhappy.
These are meant to be games. Games are meant for enjoyment right? If the stuff being touted around as 'fun' came anywhere near me, i would never game again. Yes, i'm serious. I just don't find it acceptable on a personal level. Call me a prude if you want. Call me names if you want. I don't want in on that on any level.
Whilst Sett has ranted and raved, i get what he is saying. However, the cure for me personally is to remove myself from the internet community altogether. I don't want to be on the same communication medium as this stuff. It upsets me and i wont expose myself to it.
Au revoir.
One Horse Town:
If we quit altogether, they have won. We stil have a chance in creating a zone of sanity.
Apart from that, there are still the Phaiacias of single game systems, like DF or CotI.
Join the strike, solidarize with all those sane people interested in a fun place to discuss RPGs as we know and love them.
You one of those "sane people" Sett?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RYou one of those "sane people" Sett?
Regards,
David R
Comedy gold :D
Quote from: SettembriniAs long as any thread containing and discussing the Recent Revelations is on the first page of the forae, I will not post anything whatsoever.
You're fielding questions about your one-man-strike, right? I've got some questions:
Are you combining this posting strike with your stated belief that
any mention of thematic gaming of any sort is a thread about the topics you dislike? In other words, will you be silent (outside this thread) for as long as
anything about thematic gaming is on the first page of the forae?
How many forae? Is "Actual Play" included? Will my little "Sadie Hawkins dance" thread keep you out of posting until enough AP threads have accumulated to shove it off the front page? Is "RPGPundit's Forum" included? Will you be unable to post until such time as Pundit has a first-page full of stuff unconnected to story-game folks and their gaming?
This is a hugely hard-core position. I hope you won't make yourself unhappy trying to pursue it.
Settembrini, from where I'm sitting your planned 'posting strike' looks designed to fail. What if a lot of people join you? Won't that increase the relative presence of storygame yahoo threads if the people who like those threads are the only ones posting? In my opinion a better idea would be that everytime you see a thread you loathe, start a new thread that does not suck. Hell, I wish everyone did that all the time.
You don't drown out the sounds of the neighbors screwing in the appartment next door by being very quiet, you turn your stereo up loud and rock out.
Quote from: jrientsYou don't drown out the sounds of the neighbors screwing in the appartment next door by being very quiet, you turn your stereo up loud and rock out.
Best. Analogy. Evar! :D
I also completely agree with your point, Jeff.
Sett, I think that you are thinking about this in exactly the wrong way. This forum is defined by what people *contribute*, not by silence. If you care about this place and see it going in what you consider the wrong direction then only positive
action will help.
Inaction will only make the change a foregone result.
Now, I believe that there is room for what I would call strategic silence, meaning deliberately not adding fuel to the fire of discussions that I personally find distasteful, but that does not mean that other discussions should be neglected. In fact, to do so is self-defeating. If there is no fuel added to the fires of good discussions then they will not eclipse the bad, and it will be the bad that defines what this site is.
TGA
No, not neccesarily.
Two things can happen:
1) Very few people join. That will prove in which direction this site will go. Will the subjects at question remain on the front page? I leave.
Will they die down and general gaming talk will prevail? I admit I was "in error predicting the fault" as the quote from 2001 goes.
2) Many people join in. Only the "special discussions" remain. That would prove my theory that there are many people that don´t want to be even exposed to the "special discussions".
See, I actually thought a lot about this. First I thought it would be my duty to generate as much RPG discussion as possible, to drown out the "special discussions". But then, they would control me. I don´t want to be forced to pull some new threads out of my hair, I don´t want to fight with them, and I don´t want my threads besides threads about this "stuff".
I want to load theRPGsite when I feel like it, and have some nice reading or some nice game related flamewar. I want to be able to trust theRPGsites content to be about the games I love so much. Just as I can load up jrients gaming blog at any time to read stuff about gaming without the need to even consider "special discussions".
The fact that of all people in the world the Pundit closed a thread. Pundit closed a thread, also it was still going strong. I do not object that, but it is a telling sign, that my predictions are at least seeming to become true.
He mocked my post, but totally acted in spirit of it. I support that.
Off to off topic with this stuff. Close the threads, let them sink into the abyss of the database.
EDIT: Assyrian,
I don´t want to strategically post. I don´t want to be bothererd at all. I want a place where I can feel free of maneuvres against their ilk. I don´t want to fight a war. It´s over. How ultra engaged have we become, how cornered, if we must think and act and threadstart strategically and post tactically in our own fucking forum, because of these...let´s say individuals and their cronies? No, I say no. It´s over.
No.
I totally see what you are saying. For my own part, this last week has been a lot less fun than most others around here. My hope is that this particularly insanity is just the Drama of the Moment and that at some point things will return to normal.
And I can totally see the appeal of simply declaring "we now only discuss these RPGs" but that would be a major change for us to do. It would be more drastic than RPGnet spinning of the d20 discussions. It would open Pundit up to a new round of criticism and it's his butt on the line with this site, not mine.
Quote from: jrientsIt would be more drastic than RPGnet spinning of the d20 discussions.
In fact, it would be the direct equivalent of RPGnet moving all d20 discussions into Tangency.
Quote from: jrientsIt would open Pundit up to a new round of criticism and it's his butt on the line with this site, not mine.
Criticism by whom?
Do we value their opinion anymore?
I don´t.
There is nothing left to discuss.
For my own part, if we officially adopted Pierce's Law (in your sig) I wouldn't find myself wanting for things to discuss.
If the Indie/Storyteller gamers are happy enough that some of their most prominent games and designers see RPGs as vehicles for extreme sado-masochistic role-playing, I don't see what any protest on this site will achieve. The storytellers will either pressure the fetishists to break off into their own S&M sub-hobby, or they'll have to accept that the Indie/Storyteller branch of RPGs is associated by the rest of hobby with grotesque porn. Nothing anybody here can do about it.
It´s not about changing anything in meatspace. It´s about my (and other people´s) want for a general RPG discussion site.
Quote from: SettembriniIt´s not about changing anything in meatspace. It´s about my (and other people´s) want for a general RPG discussion site.
HELLO???
This is the closest thing to that site that I've discovered on the web, Sett.
Some of us might even agree with you about that topic that is annoying you - but it was really only 3 threads or less.
It dies mostly after a week or so.
Its one of those ebb and flow things. (or would that be web and flow?)
Look at this way : Some of us have now discovered a new facet of forge/indie game not to like or that just cements our dislike of them.
Now that we know....
or as NBC used to say.... Knowing makes all the difference!!!
- Ed C.
Quote from: HaffrungThe storytellers will either pressure the fetishist to break off into their own S&M sub-hobby, or they'll have to accept that the Indie/Storyteller branch of RPGs is associated by the rest of hobby with grotesque porn.
Interestingly enough, most of the people I considered linked with the 'Indie' movement seems have already chosen the second option- they are indeed accepting of the turn towards open porn in those games. If anyone knows of an exception, please forward it on to me.
As to the topic of bans on posting about these types of games...
I don't really have a dog in this race, therpgsite is far from being a online 'home' to me. Even so, I thought I'd comment.
Personally I wouldn't ban talking about the games, I'd ban the people who support those games. After all, no one who opposed them would last a day at the Forge would they?
But Pundit isn't going to do that. He didn't create this site for that purpose. The downside is that there are more than enough of these people to swamp therpgsite at any time should they wish to.
So the best hope is what jrients suggests- wait a while and see if it becomes old news and blows over. In the meantime, use your ignore lists (myself, I use the ignore list more as a red flag than an ignore list), skip questionable threads. If you feel strongly enough about it- stop talking with people online that you wouldn't have as guests at your gaming table
Worse case, maybe someone will create a site where those type of people would be banned. The corruption of RPGnet resulted in today's thergpsite, the cycle could easily continue.
Quote from: jrientsI totally see what you are saying. For my own part, this last week has been a lot less fun than most others around here. My hope is that this particularly insanity is just the Drama of the Moment and that at some point things will return to normal.
I totally agree. Not the best week we've had, especially after all the fun and craziness of 4e's announcement and all the post-Gen Con stuff.
I was hoping to try to re-focus things a bit by means of a contest or drive for creating gaming charts/tables (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7331), but since I'm an ENnies judge and there'd be gaming companies involved as such, I can't really be the drive behind it. :mad:
QuoteI was hoping to try to re-focus things a bit by means of a contest or drive for creating gaming charts/tables (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7331), but since I'm an ENnies judge and there'd be gaming companies involved as such, I can't really be the drive behind it.
Zach, this is the point.
They make us question how we can keep the discussions about RPGs. On a fucking RPG site, no on THE RPGsite.
I fear though, that Brian might have a point. I´m not sure about Pundit´s goal for the the Site. Is he still trying to make a point, is he still meta-discussing with them? As long as he´s meta-discussing with them and uses this Site as a battleground, it will continue, for the worse.
Now, I was until very recently totally on board with his take on things: "Fight them here!"
But I´m not anymore, for the stated reasons. I now do think the war is pointless. There can be no war with them, we automatically win any discussion. But we at the same time attract all kinds of weirdos and bozos who still defend that shit.
One of them even opened a new thread about ashcanning, and surely about a certain game.
You can´t convince these bozos and fetishists. There is no reasoning to be had, and there is no audience we need to enlighten about it.
If there was a nice sticky, why and which games are discussed here, and why and which may be only discussed in the off-topic, alongside racism, religion and Bush Jr., all sane people would already be informed enough.
There is no disinformation that needs to be cleared anymore.
They are morally dead, only the loud and confused bozos remain.
And with them there is no debate.
Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: Assyrian,
I don´t want to strategically post. I don´t want to be bothererd at all. I want a place where I can feel free of maneuvres against their ilk. I don´t want to fight a war. It´s over. How ultra engaged have we become, how cornered, if we must think and act and threadstart strategically and post tactically in our own fucking forum, because of these...let´s say individuals and their cronies? No, I say no. It´s over.
No.
Sett, I don't see things the same way as you do, but that is OK. Do what you feel you gotta do.
TGA
You are basically proposing that Pundit declare victory and lock them out of the clubhouse. I respect that you have given this a lot of thought, but I'd like to make a counter offer: Let's try to go back to the way things were before this brouhaha. If everything still sucks in a week, I'll be onboard for this change.
Of course Pundit makes the final call.
Quote from: jrientsYou are basically proposing that Pundit declare victory and lock them out of the clubhouse. I respect that you have given this a lot of thought, but I'd like to make a counter offer: Let's try to go back to the way things were before this brouhaha. If everything still sucks in a week, I'll be onboard for this change.
Of course Pundit makes the final call.
My only problem with this tack, Jeff, is that it gives a tiny minority people (many of whom only recently registered here recently to shill or defend) effective control over what this site will become, not the vast majority of the posters. All they have to do is keep talking and they will force us to change our culture.
I agree that if this doesn't get better something has to be done, but for my money we should make sure that we don't lose what makes this site special in the process. To allow that would be sad, on a personal level.
TGA
Actually, I was just going to post that I forgot my Strike´s time-frame:
Wednesday next week will be the time.
Quote from: KoltarHELLO???
Look at this way : Some of us have now discovered a new facet of forge/indie game not to like or that just cements our dislike of them.
Now that we know....
Indeed. I can't think of anything more likely to further marginalize the Indie/Storytelling movement than Baker's AP. You couldn't have come up with a more damaging testament to the porn fetish roots of the movement if you tried.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianMy only problem with this tack, Jeff, is that it gives a tiny minority people (many of whom only recently registered here recently to shill or defend) effective control over what this site will become, not the vast majority of the posters. All they have to do is keep talking and they will force us to change our culture.
I agree that if this doesn't get better something has to be done, but for my money we should make sure that we don't lose what makes this site special in the process. To allow that would be sad, on a personal level.
3 quick points and 1 long one
1) Just because I'm onboard for the change doesn't mean it will magically happen.
2) I'm certain there would be plenty of more public discussion before any major changes were made.
3) Small minorities ALWAYS drag the majority along somewhere. Whether it's me and Sett fed up with this crap or Pundit and the admins steering the site or all of us bouncing off the latest indie crapola.
4) While I do my best to uphold the free speech principles of this site, I'm not an ideological zealot. And I'm not a soldier in a stupid war. But I do see that discourse at theRPGsite has been poisoned by recent events. If this situation doesn't blow over soon, something will have to be done. We're bleeding talented people here. How much has grubman or Doc Rotwang posted since this nonsense started? Now Sett is on the verge of going awol. It's people like them that make this place great. If I have to choose between an abstract principle and a real person, I think I'm gonna go with the person.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianMy only problem with this tack, Jeff, is that it gives a tiny minority people (many of whom only recently registered here recently to shill or defend) effective control over what this site will become, not the vast majority of the posters.
If all discussion over that nebulously defined "thematic gaming" ends up being redirected to some non-gaming forum, though, the
minority will get more minor by one poster; at that point I'll distance myself from the whole hysteria and take my leave. This site is already hostile enough to most of the RPGs I've ever enjoyed as it is.
Quote from: jrients3 quick points and 1 long one
Points well taken, Jeff. In the end, if it is a choice between losing a lot of good posters or keeping to the vision of the site, I would reluctantly join you in supporting more drastic action. But I'd rather see people not leave or take vows of non-posting and instead make their displeasure known and then ignore the fuckers who are coming here for the express purpose of shilling. If met with a wall of disapproving silence, perhaps they would chose not to pull their stunts. No payoff for them.
But this is the hard part of trying to maintain free discussion, I'll agree.
TGA
Joewolz and OnehorseTown anounced they are leaving this site (or the whole internet) already.
I mean it´s the EXACT thing Pundit has been predicting and warning against:
The acceptance of Lawncrappers leads to a degeneration of the audience.
If we do not ostracize those whom we think are anti-social, we are digging our hobby´s digital grave.
Maybe we must all move to Gleemax (shudder) in the future.
Quote from: GrimGentIf all discussion over that nebulously defined "thematic gaming" ends up being redirected to some non-gaming forum, though, the minority will get more minor by one poster; at that point I'll distance myself from the whole hysteria and take my leave. This site is already hostile enough to most of the RPGs I've ever enjoyed as it is.
In this case, I was referring to the minority of people who have recently registered here apparently to shill/defend a rather questionable game.
Personally, I don't particularly think that there is as huge a separation between "Traditional" games and "Story" games as some people on this board do. I have played and enjoyed both kind of games, and I also don't believe that Thematic/Story Games/Whateverthefuckyoucallthem Games as a whole inherently lead to any particular kind of gaming. I would prefer that this site maintain its character of being a place to talk about all kinds of RPGs, even if some particular games are out of the bounds of polite discussion.
In other words, my comments were not directed at you, or anyone else who is generally happy playing Story Games.
TGA
Free Speech,
is not really at stake here. We have a culture of free speech only regarding discussion about RPGs. Racism, Bush Jr, Flavour of Love, My hard on for Maggie Thatcher* are all Off-topic material already.
*WTF?
Quote from: SettembriniJoewolz and OnehorseTown anounced they are leaving this site (or the whole internet) already.
I mean it´s the EXACT thing Pundit has been predicting and warning against:
The acceptance of Lawncrappers leads to a degeneration of the audience.
If we do not ostracize those whom we think are anti-social, we are digging our hobby´s digital grave.
Maybe we must all move to Gleemax (shudder) in the future.
Who's talking about acceptance here? I suggest voluntary ostracism of these kinds of discussions.
Listen, this *will* require people to be consistent about it. Don't take the bait! Is this a realistic expectation? Perhaps not. That remains to be seen.
Each of us must make our personal choices regarding this dilemma. I won't fault Joe or OHT for their decision to disengage, but I
personally think that it is counter-productive. If the community can't police itself, then we will have to turn to an authority figure (in this case the Pundit) to police us. That will be a sad day in my mind. I would prefer that we police ourselves.
TGA
Quote from: The Good AssyrianIn other words, my comments were not directed at you, or anyone else who is generally happy playing Story Games.
Like most gamers I know, I play (well, run) all kinds of RPGs, from traditional sword-and-sorcery epics to the more unusual and experimental fare. These distinctions are mostly meaningless to me except as rudimentary guidelines on what manner of mechanics might be to someone's taste. Lately it's just been becoming increasingly obvious that coming here really isn't worth the bother of constantly having to
defend my choice of games.
Quote from: SettembriniFree Speech,
is not really at stake here. We have a culture of free speech only regarding discussion about RPGs.
In my experience the best discussions occur when there are few restrictions other than what standards are enforced by the community. It is also my experience that once you turn to an authority to restrict discussion, the quality goes down because the authority's view of what is appropriate does not always match that of the community.
For example, it is apparently your contention that all "Thematic" games are stained by the sins of Poison'd and should not be a topic of legitimate discussion. I thoroughly disagree with this. I also think that if an authority (the Pundit) enforces this policy, then we will lose some posters who don't share the same views as you (or I, or Pundit, etc.) and the quality of discussion will go down.
TGA
Quote from: KoltarHELLO???
This is the closest thing to that site that I've discovered on the web, Sett.
Some of us might even agree with you about that topic that is annoying you - but it was really only 3 threads or less.
It dies mostly after a week or so.
Its one of those ebb and flow things. (or would that be web and flow?)
Look at this way : Some of us have now discovered a new facet of forge/indie game not to like or that just cements our dislike of them.
Now that we know....
or as NBC used to say....
Knowing makes all the difference!!!
- Ed C.
Yes, thank you Ed! I don't want to shut up the storygamers anymore. I want them being forced to constantly defend the fact that one of their luminaries has designed a game where esophagus-corpse-rape is a central feature.
I haven't seen this many people turn against the Forgers since "Brain Damage", and that's a very good thing.
Post about regular roleplaying, folks! Let the Forgers sink themselves.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniYou can´t convince these bozos and fetishists. There is no reasoning to be had, and there is no audience we need to enlighten about it.
The point isn't to convince them, it is to mock and humiliate them. And you're wrong about the second part as well: there's a shitload of people who need enlightening: the average joe gamers who had often told me that "they thought I was exaggerating" about the Forge/Storygames/Theory Swine.
Because you know what they'll try to do with this topic, right? Hide it. Squirrel it away somewhere and hope to avoid it coming up, so they can keep on seeming like nice reasonable people, and not the gang of utter fuckheads that they really are. Because all they have in order to convince the "proles" of their way is lies, is making out to be nice normal gamers like them. Shit, that's TonyLB's whole act right there!
QuoteIf there was a nice sticky, why and which games are discussed here, and why and which may be only discussed in the off-topic, alongside racism, religion and Bush Jr., all sane people would already be informed enough.
There is no disinformation that needs to be cleared anymore.
Ok, look, you think that's the way we should go? Start a fucking poll about it in the help section, a public consultation thread. I'll ignore how any of the Swine vote, don't worry. I'll only consider the votes of regular members. Let the options be to:
1. Keep things as they are.
2. Ban the Swine
3. Not ban them but shunt anything they start over to Off-topic, as well as any threads derail too badly.
Otherwise, sett, all your little dramatics and sweeping gestures are just a load of self-absorbed crap.
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Good AssyrianEach of us must make our personal choices regarding this dilemma. I won't fault Joe or OHT for their decision to disengage, but I personally think that it is counter-productive. If the community can't police itself, then we will have to turn to an authority figure (in this case the Pundit) to police us. That will be a sad day in my mind. I would prefer that we police ourselves.
I strongly agree. This would all be fixed best if whiny bitches like One Horse Town and Joe Wolz and Sett would actually POST MORE STUFF rather than threaten to leave every time that someone posts something swiney that they don't like.
RPGPundit
QuoteI want them being forced to constantly defend the fact that one of their luminaries has designed a game where esophagus-corpse-rape is a central feature.
See? This is what I don´t want to read. I feared you´d take that route. Although I see your point, I will not participate in that.
You won, Pundit. Big time. You were right with everything, even with your stance on the term "Thematic", they are not RPGs.
But as much as I sympathize with you in hunting them and beating the rhetorical crap out of them, I don´t wish to be part of it.
Because they are already beaten to Sirius.
Quote from: RPGPunditPost about regular roleplaying, folks! Let the Forgers sink themselves.
There's that, and as I've been saying it's already happening.
But there's also this other thing:
Poison'd is the only indie game to emerge from GenCon that's generated ANY kind of buzz AT ALL. Everything else has tanked.
Where "tanked" means: Zero visibility among the general gaming public. There's just nothing there. Which surprises even ME, because I was looking forward to hear about a certain new supplement. But no.
After the current bang fades, in about a week from now, it won't be followed even by a whimper.
Quote from: GrimGentLike most gamers I know, I play (well, run) all kinds of RPGs, from traditional sword-and-sorcery epics to the more unusual and experimental fare. These distinctions are mostly meaningless to me except as rudimentary guidelines on what manner of mechanics might be to someone's taste. Lately it's just been becoming increasingly obvious that coming here really isn't worth the bother of constantly having to defend my choice of games.
Do you think it's unreasonable for people to not want a site they visit to become comfortable for gamers who are fascinated with abuse, S&M, and sexual kinks? Because unless some of the mainstream storytelling gamers publicly distance themselves from that shit, the storytelling crowd is going to carry around an odour of creepy sleaze with it everywhere they go.
Quote from: HaffrungDo you think it's unreasonable for people to not want a site they visit to become comfortable for gamers who are fascinated with abuse, S&M, and sexual kinks?
As far as I'm concerned, player comfort and a group consensus on what is acceptable are the decisive factors: everything else is negotiable. While a good GM is always aware of the boundaries and knows not to push them against the wishes of the other players, absolutely
any RPG could potentially serve as the vehicle for those same sexual fantasies. Don't look for moral high ground in "traditional" gaming.
Incidentally, in one post after another you seem to fixate specifically on perceived tones of BDSM. That is something which offends you personally, to the degree that a discussion about the power dynamics between the PCs would unsettle you?
Quote from: GrimGentIncidentally, in one post after another you seem to fixate specifically on perceived tones of BDSM. That is something which offends you personally, to the degree that a discussion about the power dynamics between the PCs would unsettle you?
I think it's a fucking creepy subject for RPGs, yeah. And I don't see any common ground between people who play games to work out their personal sado-masochistic/ abuse issues and people who play games to kill dragons and take their treasure.
As for power dynamics between PCs, I know my own group and since it's unlikely I'll play RPGs with anyone outside my group, I'm not really interested in abstract discussions of the matter - though I'll offer my observation that the people who are most interested in the subject have had bad personal experiences with people they played with that they can't seem to get past. Or they're fixated on personal power and abuse issues in the first place (see above).
Quote from: HaffrungAnd I don't see any common ground between people who play games to work out their personal sado-masochistic/ abuse issues and people who play games to kill dragons and take their treasure.
Both of those can be used for exploring meaningful ideas, and both of those can be used for wallowing in gory fantasies. You are naturally enough welcome to express your discontent with the content of the games which others play, but generally it doesn't concern me how they go about it and what their motives are. (In
my game, though, assaulting that dragon might well get you dragged into the court of justice and charged with attempted murder.)
Quote from: SettembriniJoewolz and OnehorseTown anounced they are leaving this site (or the whole internet) already.
And other valuable posters like Levi and David R have left us or wound down their participation because they didn't like the aggressive ranting of guys like you, Settembrini. Doc Rotwang's said that "this suxxorz!" puts him off, he wants to talk about what each poster likes, not what each poster hates.
But we didn't change any rules to keep
them, did we? I don't think you want to go to that way of arguing. Because if we're going to change rules to keep the posters Joewolz or One Horse Town or Settembrini around, why not change rules to keep David R or Levi around, eh? We'd be changing rules every week, and before you know it we'd be trying to have an Emotionally Safe Environment and have twenty moderators and pet posters who can do no wrong and... sound familiar?
As a discussion forum goes along over time, its style will put some people off. That style might be permanent, it might just be because of some drama one week or month. But the site gains some posters because of it, and loses some. That's the way discussion forums go. You keep some, you lose some.
A discussion forum is nothing more than the sum of all its posts. So you change it by posting to it. Don't complain about the forum's style, post in the style you like and promote that style instead. As Yoda said,
do or no do, there is no whinge.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityAfter the current bang fades, in about a week from now, it won't be followed even by a whimper.
And what happens when some Melingloresque poster comes along two weeks later?
Or a new walkerp?
Or whatever the name is these guys drew out of the hat at Camp Nerdly to get on theRPGsite duty?
EDIT: Irrelevance makes them go to great lengths on the internet. Being unsuccesful will not stop, but rather encourage them.
Pundit already said what he plans to do.
At least that´s my reasoning.
@Pundit: Do you think these games are RPGs?
Quote from: SettembriniOr whatever the name is these guys drew out of the hat at Camp Nerdly to get on theRPGsite duty?
Camp Nerdly? :heh:
Sorry, just thought that was funny.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstCamp Nerdly? :heh:
Sorry, just thought that was funny.
Yeah - thats the uber-secret summer camp that the Forge guys go to during the summer. They emerge briefly during the late part of the summmer to set up that play collective booth at a major convention
....or so I've heard. Or did I read it in the Last issue of
WEEKLY WORLD NEWS ? - Ed C.
Guys, I'm all for discussing games on this forum, even swine games.
However, I'm annoyed by the number of threads which have appeared over the last month where there is no intent to discuss games or theory, but to advertise using viral marketting techniques. Now, this forum is a free speech zone about gaming, but just because the forum and its administrator stand for free speech does not give others the right to abuse that stance by turning this forum into nothing more than an internet billboard for their product or ideology.
So if a thread looks like spam, move the thread and ban the OP. Or remove the thread and ban the OP like you would any other bot that's spamming.
Or, if you are feeling sadistic towards these pudwackers, ban the OP of the spam thread and move the thread into a subforum created for examples of viral marketting attempts where others may post to the thread.
Quote from: Settembrini@Pundit: Do you think these games are RPGs?
You already know I do not.
RPGPundit
Quote from: KoltarYeah - thats the uber-secret summer camp that the Forge guys go to during the summer. They emerge briefly during the late part of the summmer to set up that play collective booth at a major convention
....or so I've heard. Or did I read it in the Last issue of WEEKLY WORLD NEWS ?
- Ed C.
Um.. you guys DO know that Camp Nerdly is real, don't you? Its a kind of Forge/storygames get-together thing. For many of them its the one time of the year they are together in realspace with people who think like them, and for many of them its the one time in the year that they actually game.
RPGPundit
And everybody else does know what you think too.
So your integrity is not at stake.
Quote from: jeff37923Guys, I'm all for discussing games on this forum, even swine games.
However, I'm annoyed by the number of threads which have appeared over the last month where there is no intent to discuss games or theory, but to advertise using viral marketting techniques. Now, this forum is a free speech zone about gaming, but just because the forum and its administrator stand for free speech does not give others the right to abuse that stance by turning this forum into nothing more than an internet billboard for their product or ideology.
So if a thread looks like spam, move the thread and ban the OP. Or remove the thread and ban the OP like you would any other bot that's spamming.
Or, if you are feeling sadistic towards these pudwackers, ban the OP of the spam thread and move the thread into a subforum created for examples of viral marketting attempts where others may post to the thread.
What are those threads, the viral marketing threads, I'm honestly asking.
Quote from: jeff37923Guys, I'm all for discussing games on this forum, even swine games.
However, I'm annoyed by the number of threads which have appeared over the last month where there is no intent to discuss games or theory, but to advertise using viral marketting techniques. Now, this forum is a free speech zone about gaming, but just because the forum and its administrator stand for free speech does not give others the right to abuse that stance by turning this forum into nothing more than an internet billboard for their product or ideology.
So if a thread looks like spam, move the thread and ban the OP. Or remove the thread and ban the OP like you would any other bot that's spamming.
Or, if you are feeling sadistic towards these pudwackers, ban the OP of the spam thread and move the thread into a subforum created for examples of viral marketting attempts where others may post to the thread.
This is all being taken under heavy consideration.
RPGPundit
Quote from: chucklesWhat are those threads, the viral marketing threads, I'm honestly asking.
Don't bother. I asked this same question and all I got were links to the Forge and some loser's blog from 4 years ago. It's all in their heads.
Seeing as you don't buy into the viral marketing idea, you would not be my ideal person to answer that question. But thanks for trying.
Quote from: chucklesWhat are those threads, the viral marketing threads, I'm honestly asking.
The one that immediately comes to mind is one where the OP started off by posting pictures of a local con and began extolling the virtues of the Forge and how they helped him with game design. Prior to that thread, the OP had only a single post on this board from a year before and following that thread, and the two others which spawned from it, has rarely posted here again.
This was less than a six weeks ago.
EDIT: Took me bit to look it up, but here's the thread.
DexCon 10, Indie Explosion (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6833&highlight=pictures)
Also please take note of VBWyrde's posting history.
Quote from: walkerpDon't bother. I asked this same question and all I got were links to the Forge and some loser's blog from 4 years ago. It's all in their heads.
[sarcasm]Yup, that's right. When you disagree with someone, just claim that they have brain damage, huh?[/sarcasm]
Here's a question. What does anyone accomplish defending their playstyle? You know it's right otherwise you probably wouldn't still be playing. Defending it against someone whose experiences are different is pointless. I for one am constantly looking for games that satisfy different aspects of my playstyle. Some of my experiences are similar, some not but I can't build enough anger to care what other people think of my tastes.
Quote from: jeff37923[sarcasm]Yup, that's right. When you disagree with someone, just claim that they have brain damage, huh?[/sarcasm]
Well it is par for the course, really.
I'm a bit late with my 2 cents... but what the heck.
The board admins need to give serious thought to how they want the site to continue to grow. While the idea of a completely "free-speech" space is nice in theory, it will steadily attract viral marketers and unsavoury topics which will drive off some of the other posters.
This is compounded by the reality that you don't really have 100% free speech anyway. In addition to the laws of the country you live in, and the country the website is hosted in, and the domain name registered in, you also have the terms of service for the ISP you are connecting with. All of these mean there is a long list of things you can not say online, without running the risk of the website being taken offline, losing your internet access, and even arrest and prison time.
Vincent's recent foray into "dark" thematic roleplaying and the Actual Play examples it inspires is taking things very close to where there could be repercussions regardless of what the posters involved feel about "free speech".
Anyway... this is the Pundit's author's site, and it's up to him to decide what he wants to do with it. My advice is that if you don't want to lock/delete threads, then continue to move them. Perhaps an "other games" section is in order.
I'm not here because I was banned from any other sites, so "free speech" isn't a draw to theRPGsite for me. I'm here because it seemed like the best choice for an RPG discussion site that would be free of GNS jargon.
If VB is a shill, he's a damn good one - under some serious deep cover. I've had my issues with him, and he might be inthe process of being seduced by the Forgeries, but I think he's more traditional in his leanings.
If I have the time, I'll try to find some threads for you, chuckles. Right now I have to work on //www.d20haven.com/forums - how's that for shilling? :D
Good luck with it, sounds cool (for you being a soulless depraved evil flatlander).
The strike is lifted.
As it seems, I was mostly "in error predicting the fault".
I could be led to believe that pierce and elliot were right.
I´d like to point out, though, that interestingly enough, certain viral marketeers, shillologists and warfighters have dropped posting since last week´s invasion was noticed.
Coincedence? I´d rather like to believe that our public outrage had some effect.
Again, I´m still wary. Any discussion could go the way I depicted, if the wrong people push some buttons. As long as those people don´t come back, this site seems to be the best place to be.
Quote from: SettembriniThe strike is lifted.
3 days. LOL.
Still, I lost the bet. I had you pegged for at least 5. Who bet on 48-72 hours?
Huh?
I striked a whole week just as proclaimed, today is wednesday. Please read before you mock.
Quote from: SettembriniStrike´s time-frame:
Wednesday next week will be the time.
See?
I didn't really notice he was gone.
Yeah, we don't mind if you want to do a longer strike, Sett. It might make your point even more strongly.
Quote from: SettembriniThe strike is lifted.
As it seems, I was mostly "in error predicting the fault".
I could be led to believe that pierce and elliot were right.
I´d like to point out, though, that interestingly enough, certain viral marketeers, shillologists and warfighters have dropped posting since last week´s invasion was noticed.
Coincedence? I´d rather like to believe that our public outrage had some effect.
Again, I´m still wary. Any discussion could go the way I depicted, if the wrong people push some buttons. As long as those people don´t come back, this site seems to be the best place to be.
Don't rest your head, Sett (oops, accidently slipped in the title of a potentially swinish game there). That could have been an initial sortie just to test the site's reaction. They could very well be re-tooling for a larger, yet subtler attack. Especially after they see how reluctantly we responded to your request. Our demonstration of moral weakness only encourages them further.
Quote from: walkerpDon't rest your head, Sett (oops, accidently slipped in the title of a potentially swinish game there). That could have been an initial sortie just to test the site's reaction. They could very well be re-tooling for a larger, yet subtler attack. Especially after they see how reluctantly we responded to your request. Our demonstration of moral weakness only encourages them further.
"Each of these viral marketers and apologists is a finger of the Forge; a single finger, probing for weakness. And when one finds that weakness, those fingers will draw back and form a fist..."
Sorry, I just really like that line.
Quote from: Christmas Ape"Each of these viral marketers and apologists is a finger of the Forge"
I like to think of myself as a finger up the anus. A bit uncomfortable for some, but orgasmically pleasurable for others.
Quote from: Christmas Ape"Each of these viral marketers and apologists is a finger of the Forge; a single finger, probing for weakness. And when one finds that weakness, those fingers will draw back and form a fist..."
Sorry, I just really like that line.
It is good. Where is it from?
Quote from: RPGPunditThe point isn't to convince them, it is to mock and humiliate them. And you're wrong about the second part as well: there's a shitload of people who need enlightening: the average joe gamers who had often told me that "they thought I was exaggerating" about the Forge/Storygames/Theory Swine.
Because you know what they'll try to do with this topic, right? Hide it. Squirrel it away somewhere and hope to avoid it coming up, so they can keep on seeming like nice reasonable people, and not the gang of utter fuckheads that they really are. Because all they have in order to convince the "proles" of their way is lies, is making out to be nice normal gamers like them. Shit, that's TonyLB's whole act right there!
Ok, look, you think that's the way we should go? Start a fucking poll about it in the help section, a public consultation thread. I'll ignore how any of the Swine vote, don't worry. I'll only consider the votes of regular members. Let the options be to:
1. Keep things as they are.
2. Ban the Swine
3. Not ban them but shunt anything they start over to Off-topic, as well as any threads derail too badly.
Otherwise, sett, all your little dramatics and sweeping gestures are just a load of self-absorbed crap.
RPGPundit
Okay, it's my turn now. I know I don't post nearly enough, but I lurk on this site every day, so I'll add my two bits. :)
Pundit, I would humbly request that you add an option 4. Add another subforum. Call it.....
"the Septic Tank". ;) It would focus on thematic games, threads with extensive G/N/S jargon, storytelling games, and general Forge bullshit.
Bannings and threadlocks should be avoided if at all possible. That is my belief.
Rename the 'Theory' subforum to "Game Mechanics and Design". Any time the Forge/Storytelling/Theory bullshit appears, just shunt it over to
"the Septic Tank". This will achieve a few things:
1.) The RPG subforum will be free of this esoteric G/N/S jargon.
2.) The Game Mechanics/Design subforum will ALSO be free of this G/N/S mental fappery.
3.) It will allow you to avoid unnecessary threadlocks and bannings, and probably succeed in preventing future "strikes", because instead this horseshit will just be shunted over to the Septic Tank forum instead.
4.) Yes, it's a compromise. But it allows you to maintain free speech, while still making it clear what you find acceptable in rpgs, and what you do not. The truth is, it's the perfect compromise....because it gives you the battleground you're looking for, while letting people just relax when perusing the "Role-Playing Games" subforum. I think this would resolve the current crisis quite nicely. :keke:
On that note....I think Sett is getting a little carried away, and needs to calm down a bit. That being said, there IS a problem, and it needs to be fixed. Pundit, I wish you luck in dealing with the situation. You're gonna need it. :)
Quote from: Sacrificial LambI think this would resolve the current crisis quite nicely.
Sorry, SL, I just don't see a crisis here...
TGA
Quote from: The Good AssyrianSorry, SL, I just don't see a crisis here...
TGA
Fair enough, Assyrian. While I'm mostly content with the current site setup, I still think this would help.
Quote from: Sacrificial LambFair enough, Assyrian. While I'm mostly content with the current site setup, I still think this would help.
That's cool, man. ;)
TGA
Quote from: droogI like to think of myself as a finger up the anus. A bit uncomfortable for some, but orgasmically pleasurable for others.
But do you ever draw back to form a fist?
Quote from: The Good AssyrianThat's cool, man. ;)
TGA
TGA = teh good ashizzle :D
Quote from: James McMurrayBut do you ever draw back to form a fist?
Only if somebody asks for it.
Quote from: walkerpIt is good. Where is it from?
A Clash of Kings, IIRC - one of the first three of the Song of Fire and Ice series definitely, and I'm pretty sure that one.
Sacrificial Lamb, the only problem I can see with the Septic Tank suggestion is the ability to poison discussion by bringing GNS into it, thus dragging otherwise good threads over there.
Quote from: Sacrificial LambTGA = teh good ashizzle :D
I'm 36 years old. That's good, right? :p
TGA
Quote from: The Good AssyrianI'm 36 years old. That's good, right? :p
TGA
For sure, double dizzle! :haw:
P.S. I'm 36 too (on Monday). :D
Quote from: Christmas ApeSacrificial Lamb, the only problem I can see with the Septic Tank suggestion is the ability to poison discussion by bringing GNS into it, thus dragging otherwise good threads over there.
Hold on, Apey....I'm a bit confused. Do you think that some people will deliberately inject GNS into a conversation to get a thread sent over to the Septic Tank? :confused:
Quote from: Sacrificial LambHold on, Apey....I'm a bit confused. Do you think that some people will deliberately inject GNS into a conversation to get a thread sent over to the Septic Tank? :confused:
I consider it a possibility.
Quote from: Sacrificial LambFor sure, double dizzle! :haw:
P.S. I'm 36 too (on Monday). :D
Well thanks then! :D
The closest exposure I get to contemporary (sort of) slang is Jamie Kennedy's B-Rad character. I can make my 11 year-old daughter turn red with embarrassment simply by trying use slang. It's pretty damn funny, actually...
TGA
When my brother and I were younger, we would make up slang words just to see if our parents would try and use them. Yes, we were idiots. :haw:
[wrong thread]
Quote from: DevP[wrong thread]
Too true. This is
totally the wrong thread.
!i!
Not at all. All mentions of Story-Games has included the mentioning of sick fetishes, as I predicted.
Interestingly, nobody challenged that.
More interestingly, the usual suspects who did that in the first two weeks aren´t posting AT ALL.
I wonder what drove them away?
Maybe they realized their lost cause in one of their little secret threads...
Quote from: SettembriniNot at all. All mentions of Story-Games has included the mentioning of sick fetishes, as I predicted.
Interestingly, nobody challenged that.
You've got your facts mixed up. I challenged (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=136318&postcount=95) your claim, and what's more I disproved it. I had a perfectly happy discussion of actual play (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7406) of a story game, and not a sick fetish in sight.
Quote from: SettembriniI wonder what drove them away?
Maybe they realized their lost cause in one of their little secret threads...
Maybe they're bored of your attention-seeking behavior. You should make your bids for the spotlight entertaining ... like mine! :D
I feel a great sadness, akin to the despair engendered by unending poverty.
Carry on.
TonyLB is on my ignore list, and he will remain there.
I noticed he posted directly after me several times now, just fair to let him know.
Although I made it Crystal ClearTM to him, when I made that decision.
Enough of that, back to topic:
It´s over, and I´m glad. We weathered the attacks of sickos, proselityzers and cultists better than I anticipated.
Quote from: SettembriniTonyLB is on my ignore list, and he will remain there.
I noticed he posted directly after me several times now, just fair to let him know.
Although I made it Crystal ClearTM to him, when I made that decision.
Yep! You made it crystal clear that you wanted to use the Ignore List functionality to get a state where
you could say whatever you wanted, and
I would not get to respond.
Sadly, the ignore list functionality actually does the opposite. When you implement it on someone you give
them the ability to say whatever they want, and
you do not get to respond.
'course, it doesn't matter directly to you, because you don't have to listen to what they say. But if you're all "I'm going to persuade the other readers to my cause, huzzah!" then you pay for that blissful ignorance by leaving the field entirely open to other people. It's one of the more elegant balances I've seen in the forum-technology world.