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Author Topic: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.  (Read 1301 times)

Spinachcat

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Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« on: July 14, 2022, 04:31:47 AM »
I don't see the value in many bans, especially as the site traffic and membership decreases. Defending free speech means tolerating speech we don't agree with.

The SJG abortion debacle is just the latest SJW stupidity and unfortunately, I don't think there's a way anymore to divide Gaming and Politics, unless we literally had a Gaming & Politics forum separate from the Gaming forums.

And maybe that's what we need going forward.

RPGPundit, I know you don't want to spend your time giving threadbans, warnings and all that other shit. I would FAR rather you spend your time on the forum debating, conversing and opining.

Personally, I'd invite the banned to return, but among all the banned who provided actual value to this site, Dorky Pat certainly leads that pack.

Please un-ban Pat.

RPGPundit

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2022, 08:21:23 AM »
It's not hard to control yourself and stick to the topic, and yet people seem to keep breaking that.

Again, for Pat to come back he would need to absolutely convince me that he would somehow be able to resist ever derailing a gaming forum thread into non-gaming political debate again, no matter how much someone tried to goad him into it.
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deadDMwalking

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2022, 05:34:34 PM »
I think it's worth recognizing that a thread titled 'Steve Jackson Games Goes Red on the Woke Meter' is inherently political; and the OP link to a statement about the Supreme Courts decision overturning Roe v. Wade is decidedly so.  How do you talk about a gaming company's political statements without  bringing your political views into the discussion? 

I'd support a rule about 'not talking about gaming publishing companies cultural/political positions'.  If we talked about Steve Jackson GAMES, but not SJG cultural positions we'd head off a lot of conversations that invite political derailment. 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2022, 05:59:05 PM »
No, that would be a stupid rule.

The rule we have is clear: you can talk about the politics of the gaming industry, you can't veer off into general politics.

THIS IS NOT HARD TO DO.

If you're talking about Steve Jackson Games and their statements on Abortion, you can talk about Steve Jackson games, you can talk about abortion within the context of it's relationship to the topic of Steve Jackson's wokeness.  What you CANNOT DO is take that as carte blanche to talk about any other political subject. If you move the thread off-topic by talking about The Politics of Star Trek, or Environmentalism, or Crazy Stuff Feminists are Saying on Tumblr, or (AS PAT DID) on "Trump Derangement Syndrome", then you'll be banned.

When you write a post, before you hit "send", look at what you just wrote, and then look at the first post of the thread, and ask yourself, "does this actually have zero tangible connection to the topic and OP?" if the answer is yes, whether you're posting what you feel is vitally important information about how CRT is wrong, or about My Little Pony, or about your knowledge of trains, if it has no fucking connection to the topic do not post it if you don't want to be banned.

How is that difficult?
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deadDMwalking

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2022, 08:52:58 PM »
The post I just recently deleted (replying to folks talking about politics in Star Trek) discussed science fiction as a reflection/commentary on contemporary society; Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers, the Star Trek episode 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield' and the game world of Golarion and 'good guy governments' versus 'bad guy governments'. 

I would say that my post was topical and primarily related to the acceptable topic of game companies and political views in artistic works, but your immediate prior post instructed me to avoid off-topic conversation and specifically referenced Star Trek politics.  In an effort to ensure I avoided crossing a line, I deleted the entire post. 

I imagine that you don't have time to read every post in every thread - you've built a thriving community and it's not practical to fully read every post in every thread, especially if you're not personally interested in it.  However, I think the Original Post (OP) of a thread helps set the tone.  Since there were multiple bans coming from the same thread, it might be worth revisiting the OP - I've added bolding for emphasis.

Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion.  I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history.  Right to privacy?  Keep your extremism private.

Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade

They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.  (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )

For me, it's easy to avoid taking the bait in this particular case.  But, while my wife and I have three children and have never sought an abortion, we did experience a miscarriage.  This type of post hardly encourages a nuanced discussion of personal experiences, and whether criminalizing (or forcing parents like us to defend ourselves from even the accusation that we committed a crime) is heinous in a free society for all kinds of Libertarian reasons, let alone pro-social policy Democratic ones. 

It just doesn't make sense to me that BattleMaster and Pat got banned, but Cathode Ray and Chris24601 didn't. 

VisionStorm (also not banned) makes the point that "the real reason SJG put out this announcement draped in woke language about being a privileged white heterosexual male, and jumping in to mention transgender people, voter IDs and a whole other bunch of stuff that has fuck to do with abortion" means that even in the context of discussing SJG and their positions, well, a lot of political talk comes in.  And since the OP made the initial claim that this post by SJG is "alienating the majority of people" any statement about political affiliation/agreement with the issues is tantamount to an on-topic rebuttal (at least from my perspective).

And in this specific case, both Pat and Battlemaster were banned without any specific warnings in this thread and both in direct responses to S'mon, who also wandered off-topic in several of his previous posts. 

 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

RPGPundit

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 09:32:35 AM »
The reason they got banned is that they kept posting off-topic AFTER I made a warning on the thread.
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Spinachcat

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2022, 05:56:15 PM »
How is that difficult?

Based on the number of posters we've lost to bannings, the answer seems to be "quite difficult" for whatever reason.


Mistwell

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2022, 12:53:12 AM »
The board is worse without Pat.

I hope he makes a good attempt to appeal to you Pundit. How would he do that? Through email or something?

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2022, 11:24:36 AM »
The board is worse without Pat.

I hope he makes a good attempt to appeal to you Pundit. How would he do that? Through email or something?

Yes, he could contact me on twitter, or mewe any number of other places, or write to me.
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jeff37923

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 07:48:14 PM »
Another voice saying, "Unban Pat!"
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

RPGPundit

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2022, 05:48:27 PM »
I obviously liked Pat. I liked Shark too, though he was sometimes a bit over the top and I was often worried political off-topic speech would might get him banned.

But liking some people does not mean they get exemptions from the rules. Equality under the law is something sorely lacking in most nations today, where people of one ideological alignment will be locked up in a dark cell for months, while the people from the other side will be out in 30 minutes for the same act.

Here, the same rules apply to everyone. No non-criminal left-wing view will ever get anyone banned here (even though people have tried to report them), and no amount of staunch conservatism (or personal fanboyism) will stop you from being banned here, if you break the rules.


In any case, neither Pat nor Shark have reached out to me at all so far.
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Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2022, 07:58:23 AM »
I obviously liked Pat. I liked Shark too, though he was sometimes a bit over the top and I was often worried political off-topic speech would might get him banned.

But liking some people does not mean they get exemptions from the rules. Equality under the law is something sorely lacking in most nations today, where people of one ideological alignment will be locked up in a dark cell for months, while the people from the other side will be out in 30 minutes for the same act.

Here, the same rules apply to everyone. No non-criminal left-wing view will ever get anyone banned here (even though people have tried to report them), and no amount of staunch conservatism (or personal fanboyism) will stop you from being banned here, if you break the rules.


In any case, neither Pat nor Shark have reached out to me at all so far.
Exactly how are they supposed to know they can even do so?

Chris24601

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2022, 08:39:57 AM »
No, that would be a stupid rule.

The rule we have is clear: you can talk about the politics of the gaming industry, you can't veer off into general politics.

THIS IS NOT HARD TO DO.
Sure it’s not hard; when you’re the one who gets to decide whether it’s off-topic or not. You know that everything you post will not be off-topic because you know exactly where the line is in your head because you’re the one who set the line.

No one else is a mind reader though. We are just ordinary humans, which means we are all going to fuck up eventually and need forgiveness for it.

The problem is, there’s no room for forgiveness here. Sure, there are warnings given, but if one has a lapse in memory or judgement the punishment is absolute and seemingly irreversible without assurances they won’t make the same mistake again… which is impossible because everyone here is human and thus will fuck up again, not likely in the exact same way, but in something you can interpret as close enough.

That’s an impossible standard for anyone who isn’t your or a mind reader with access to your mind. Justice is giving everyone proper due, but it also requires mercy to keep it from becoming too harsh for the situation. Chopping off a hand for trespassing may be the law, but when someone can’t see where the line is when they step over it (vs. deliberately trespassing, say to vandalize a property) then that punishment starts to feel much less just.

I know you feel bound to enforce your rules without regard for who is breaking them, but even before the Woke times this wasn’t the strength of our legal system; it was that judges and juries had discretion to take outside factors into consideration in sentencing; and one of those factors is the net benefits and consequences of the punishment to wider society.

I would gladly take a ruler who can exercise such disgression over being ruled by the mindset of Javert. I think the net benefit the poster provides to the community is a mitigating factor that shouldn’t be ignored in determining the sentence… particularly when the only punishment you employ is permanent banning.

deadDMwalking

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2022, 01:56:26 PM »
Well if keeping Pat banned justifies keeping Shark banned, maybe it's all for the best.   ;D
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

Mistwell

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Re: Pat is a valuable dork. Pundit, please un-ban him.
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 03:16:21 PM »

But liking some people does not mean they get exemptions from the rules. Equality under the law is something sorely lacking in most nations today, where people of one ideological alignment will be locked up in a dark cell for months, while the people from the other side will be out in 30 minutes for the same act.

Here, the same rules apply to everyone. No non-criminal left-wing view will ever get anyone banned here (even though people have tried to report them), and no amount of staunch conservatism (or personal fanboyism) will stop you from being banned here, if you break the rules.


I appreciate this. I mean, I still want Pat back, but I appreciate your sticking to objective standards on it.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 04:22:12 PM by Mistwell »