Quote from: Stuart;229945What is this "rules-lawyering" nonsense when we're not talking about the rules of a game, but rather terms of use for a website...?

A metaphor.

Quote from: Engine;229954A metaphor.

Lame.

Yes, absolutely.

@Nicephorus:  Discussion of those games would have the potential to cross the line in a way that could lead to a site being shut down, irregardless of what the forums administrator's stance on freedom of speech was.

In effect, you'd be opening things up to escalation to the next level of moderators and administrators for the site.

Quote from: Stuart;229962@Nicephorus:  Discussion of those games would have the potential to cross the line in a way that could lead to a site being shut down...

Is "potential" enough cause, in your view, to forbid all discussion on an issue? For many people - particularly forum administrators who don't have the time, money, or inclination to get involved in such issues - it certainly is, but for others, actual offense is required before putative action is taken. Opinions differ.

Quote from: Stuart;229962...irregardless...

Lame.

Quote from: Engine;229968Is "potential" enough cause, in your view, to forbid all discussion on an issue?

Yes.

A site owner could choose to allow discussion so long as it stayed within certain bounds (say discussing it as a social issue rather than engaging in the activity / posting fan-fic directly).

If they're not prepared to monitor and moderate that discussion, they'd be better to forbid it altogether.

Quote from: Engine;229968For many people - particularly forum administrators who don't have the time, money, or inclination to get involved in such issues - it certainly is, but for others, actual offense is required before putative action is taken. Opinions differ.

1) Don't confuse your rights under the law with the sub-set of your rights under a legal contract with your web host, domain name registrar, and ISP.

2) A third party could go directly to the "next level" of administrators and report something without any of the users or administrators on a site needing to be involved at all.

As an example, take a look at any blog hosted by blogger:
http://blogsofnote.blogspot.com/

See the "Flag Blog" button at the top of the page?  Anyone visiting one of the countless blogs on blogger could report them for breaking the terms of use.  It doesn't matter what the bloggers views on freedom of speech are -- if they violated the terms of use (which are more limiting than freedom of speech under the law) their site will be shut down.

Quote from: Stuart;229971Yes.

And thus we disagree. Not a big deal, in my view.

Quote from: Stuart;2299711) Don't confuse your rights under the law with the sub-set of your rights under a legal contract with your web host, domain name registrar, and ISP.

That's one reason I didn't include any reference to "law" in my post. I wasn't referring to the functional rights of the administration - which, as I've pointed out before, can be lesser, greater, or rather the same as the legal rights in your jurisdiction, depending on your choices as administrator - only whether an administrator should, in your view, forbid discussion that only might get them in trouble: the source of that trouble is immaterial to the question.

Now, for you, the possibility of trouble is enough; it's not worth it to you to possibly get in trouble - with the law, with your host, with your girlfriend, whatever - over some controversy. For others, maybe getting in trouble isn't enough reason to forbid a type of conversation, and the administration won't take action until and unless they do get in trouble. Some administrators of some forums are whacko anarchist idealists, and others are fear-ridden paranoiacs who won't let anyone talk about anything that isn't hugs and puppies; most admins lie somewhere between.

Quote from: Engine;229985That's one reason I didn't include any reference to "law" in my post. I wasn't referring to the functional rights of the administration - which, as I've pointed out before, can be lesser, greater, or rather the same as the legal rights in your jurisdiction, depending on your choices as administrator - only whether an administrator should, in your view, forbid discussion that only might get them in trouble: the source of that trouble is immaterial to the question.

Now, for you, the possibility of trouble is enough; it's not worth it to you to possibly get in trouble - with the law, with your host, with your girlfriend, whatever - over some controversy. For others, maybe getting in trouble isn't enough reason to forbid a type of conversation, and the administration won't take action until and unless they do get in trouble. Some administrators of some forums are whacko anarchist idealists, and others are fear-ridden paranoiacs who won't let anyone talk about anything that isn't hugs and puppies; most admins lie somewhere between.

Your argument hinges on breaking the law, or at minimum the terms of use for the various entities you need to use to have a website. You do that at your own discretion and risk.  Advocating that others do so might actually be against the terms of use of some services and the laws in some jurisdictions.

I'm not sure what my argument is, but I agree with everything you just said, if that helps. You allow the possibility of "getting in trouble" - legal, civil, social, moral, religious, whatever - at your own discretion and risk. Advocating other people to do so might "get one in trouble" of whatever kind, as well.

Look, US law ( I assume this place is in the US) takes a really dim view of child molestation. As in it is now illegal to have/create text-only stories portraying such.

Putting that on here could cause the site to be shut down. And I believe most of us wouldn't like that.

Racism prolly wouldn't, but some shit is just not cool. And you've got 4chan for that bullshit.

Quote from: shewolf;230031Racism prolly wouldn't, but some shit is just not cool.

And there, for instance, is a place you an I differ: I don't have the "some shit is just not cool," viewpoint, or maybe more accurately, there's not much for me that goes in that category, and more significantly, I don't base my notions of censure on what I personally think isn't cool; the only way I can reasonably gain the freedom to say whatever I want is to allow everyone else the same ability: if I want to tell abortion jokes, it means letting the religious talk about their faith [for example].

Quote from: Engine;230231And there, for instance, is a place you an I differ: I don't have the "some shit is just not cool," viewpoint, or maybe more accurately, there's not much for me that goes in that category, and more significantly, I don't base my notions of censure on what I personally think isn't cool; the only way I can reasonably gain the freedom to say whatever I want is to allow everyone else the same ability: if I want to tell abortion jokes, it means letting the religious talk about their faith [for example].

I genuinely don't want this to come across too harshly... but why don't you start your own blog or forum that you can run exactly as you want, rather than try to encourage people to run one for you in a way that could get them in trouble?

I can give you links to get your started if you want.

Quote from: Stuart;230240...why don't you start your own blog or forum that you can run exactly as you want, rather than try to encourage people to run one for you in a way that could get them in trouble?

No, really, that'd be a great idea, but I'll bet the people I like from here wouldn't be there, so I'd still have to come here, and thus I'd still end up offering my own views about moderation policy, like a lot of theRPGsite posters do on RPG.net.

You don't need to give me any links, though; I'm willing to bet I can figure out how to set up a freespeech forum on a willing and devoted webhost. I just have this feeling it's not going to be that hard for me to figure out.

Quote from: Engine;230251No, really, that'd be a great idea, but I'll bet the people I like from here wouldn't be there, so I'd still have to come here, and thus I'd still end up offering my own views about moderation policy, like a lot of theRPGsite posters do on RPG.net.

The difference being you're encouraging changes that could result in the site going offline permanently through someone posting something that breaks the terms of use, and the admin staff (pundit) being so full of free speech fervor that they don't have the good sense to take it down.

That's pretty different from any suggestions people from here have made over on RPG.net.

If you do setup your own site, the people from here who are enthused about free speech and share your views on moderation policy would go there.

While the people who aren't as enthused about free speech and don't share your views probably wouldn't.

Quote from: Stuart;230253The difference being you're encouraging changes that could result in the site going offline permanently through someone posting something that breaks the terms of use...

I'm really not encouraging anything of the sort, Stuart. I'm sorry if that's not been clear.