So about the recent Gleichman fiasco thread.

Brian says something, people get up in his face, he's getting passive aggressive shit (I'll cop to it, my apologies Brian) and aggressive shit, basically living a world of Amber "bad stuff", and then this happens (sorry about the lack of post links, the thread is locked):

Quote from: The Butcher, post 183What, gleichman bred?

which cracks the door open.

Brian says this (post 185):

QuoteTwo, twin boys.

 Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf. I now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

and rather than back off at the "keep my family out of it" hint, inevitably enough this gets posted:

Quote from: Novastar

QuoteQuote: Originally Posted by gleichman  
Unlike the common poster at therpgsite, he is neither a child nor suffers emotional damage when told he made an error.

That's not what you just said:

QuoteQuote: Does that bother me? Only in the say way that human stupidity always bothers me. It would be a better world if it had better people.

You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game.

So first things, "it would be a better world if it had better people" was directed at ME, I can deal with it, thank you. But secondly, twisting it into an attack on his own son is textbook taking something out of context and using it to attack someone.

Brian takes some, I'd say legitimate, umbrage at the implication, and we're off, with The Butcher, Novastar again (yes it escalated quickly, but what the hell did you expect when you brought his family into it), Will, Marleycat (indirectly, expressing you might enjoy seeing Gleichman getting attacked through his sons), jeff37923,  and Emperor Norton.

So what do we have here? The current vernacular is online harassment, I'll just call it straight up bullying. You may not agree with Brian, you may not like him, you may enjoy needling him, but you need to keep it to him. As One Horse Town said:

QuoteI'm sorry, Brian. A couple of those comments are well out of order and i totally understand your anger on this.

 Jesus people, leave the personal family stuff alone.

Let me repeat that, don't attack people through their families.  

These kinds of comments make a mockery of the ethos of this site. Vigorous argument is one thing, blatant PAs that get community support in some sort of blood in the water feeding frenzy is something else entirely. It holds the whole site up for ridicule. This is exactly the kind of shit Zak got accused of stirring up. You'd think that would make people a little more cognizant of acting like online bullies, but apparently not.  

We are supposed to be self policing and better than that, this shows we aren't. So here's what I'm doing, I'm calling The Butcher, Novastar, Will, Marleycat, jeff37923, and Emperor Norton, and anyone I may have missed, out. I don't care if you think what you said was legit, you should have shut it, and you need to apologize for it. Make it flowery, make it a simple "I'm sorry", I don't care. Suck it up, do the right thing, and post an apology here, show we can be better than that.

I'll start:
Brian, I'm sorry. I saw what was happening but didn't say anything, and given the bullying should have known better than to contribute to it with my passive-aggressive BS. I don't always agree with you, but in general I think you have some interesting things to say. I would certainly prefer you continue to contribute here. I'm sorry.

Oh, and just to repeat, keep peoples families out of it.


And in case it needs to be said, this isn't a point at the people I called out and act holier than thou thread either.

Moved this to the Help Desk as it's basically a board culture thing.

I really think we can do better than this. Even anything on the edge of bringing families into it should give some definite pause. Can we maybe just agree, whatever the feelings are on the thread in question, that in the future, any sort of family commentary, direct or indirect, implied or implicit, is probably not the sort of thing that does us any favors as an RPG forum and community?

I'd like to see us move on and focus on better gaming discussion.

My initial comment was a joke. I'm pretty sure almost everyone here is old enough to remember what one of those looks like.

Gleichman felt the necessity to reply, sharing personal family information with everyone, and took the opportunity to level a particularly virulent accusation — that we would wish for the death of a human being just to spite him — at the board as a whole ("you bastards").

I was even considerate enough of his bitterness to allay his completely baseless fears of anyone wishing ill upon his family; congratulated him on said family; and, horror of horrors, ended it with what I considered at the time a good-natured ribbing (post #188).

Since all parts are presumably adults who are more than capable of dealing with words, let alone at an Internet forum about elfgames, I'm having a hard time understanding what the fuss is all about. I mean, it's not exactly my best moment as a poster, but I don't get the wailing and gnashing of teeth either.

And with gleichman's insufferable "you are ALL doing it wrong" attitude and his habit of popping up every few months to troll the boards (I've tried to engage him honestly in the past, to no avail, and I don't think I was the only one), I can't really see him as the victim here. I have witnessed worse dogpiles, and even bans, of posters who did far less to annoy people and "disrupt the site" than dear ol' gleichman.

Two things, because I didn't see those comments before the thread was locked.

1. I absolutely agree that shots shouldn't be taken at family members

2. Gleichman brought them up himself, and tried to hide behind them with this:

QuoteI now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

That was the first salvo of utter bullshit in that thread.  No one, not one single person, even implied that they wished his kids dead.  That was complete and utter bullshit cowardice on his part.  

I'm a veteran.  I've had friends that didn't make it back in one piece, and some that didn't make it back at all.  For him to hide behind that, let alone his own kids, whenever someone calls him out on him being an asshole, is some of the lowest crap I've seen in a long, long time.

So sorry, I have no sympathy for him at all on that.

The thread in question is a disgrace for this forum and makes me consider leaving it permanently. I do not understand which type of community, online or offline, can engage and escalate this type of behaviour at the collective level this has reached, while retaining any self respect or respect for basic social decency.

Freedom of speech licenses insults, but it does not license dogpiling and ganging in on a person as was the case here. In my book, the forum has now officially crossed the line of cyber bullying. I also notice that the preferred type of victim is any of the more fringe parts of its older membership. As a result, the forum is quickly losing whatever differentiated it from rpg.net at the level of content and culture of debate.

As stated the issue is collective, not individual, but by way of example I'll isolate two people who stand on the opposite side of a cultural, political spectrum to illustrate how 'successful' this site has become to attract people who condone and escalate the dynamics we can all observe here.

Marleycat has fucked up so many threads in the past months I stopped counting. Insults and allegations are flung at posters who post direct on topic content, which come seemingly come out at nowhere. I actually went back in time and low and behold, this poster has managed to get other posters banned because she successfully flame baited them, repeatedly. Gleichman calls this specifically out as harassment in the latest thread. I think he is correct.

The solution? Tell people who bring to this site a self-declared 'football hooligan' mentality (worn as a badge of honour, apparently) from their 'sports fora' to take it back to those sites. Disputes over games are not shouting matches over your local football team in a derby. If you lack the level of sophistication and discernment to tell the difference between these two types of discussion, we can't ask you to shut up, but we can ask you to stop disrupting this site with an endless stream of non-contributions.

My other nomination of the hour is Zak S, who manages to set the tone in a single thread he has no interest or ability to contribute to, except to license it as a personal 'get back at gleichman' moment. This is the type of contribution this forum should not tolerate. As in, at all.  Having banned from rpg.net, and pretty much ousted from The Gaming Den, as being an insufferable, uncommunicative narcissist, Zak S is now taking his online persona and antics that work for a blog - scratch that, that work for his blog - to the area they have proven to not work for at all: online fora. This whole 'answer my question or I'm gonna delete you' attitude stinks sky high in its conceit and aggression. Yes, it works when you run a site, and call it your blog, but perpretate this level of self-importance and all conversations begin to revolve around yourself and your issues over self (perceived or real). A class act for anyone coming out of the punk movement, and one that on other sites has already paid its price for its unlovely combination of radical rhetoric and professorial authoritarianism.

I guess similar things could be said about other posters, or about the two posters I singled out. The main point of singling them out is not to make it about them only, but to alert the forum to the fact that this site has now become the playground of social rejects from other fora, and there's the real issue if this community wants to be that thing.

I'm tired of people who make online fora the personal playground for their crusades and vendettas. If this community does not act quickly, it will have become a second rpg.net, except with not-safe-for-work language and imagery allowed to briefly interrupt its social hysteria. And in that case, I'll follow Melan, Benoist, and the others who have already left this forum as no longer a constructive, comfortable, and wortwhile social outlet for RPG discussions. I guess the community is already at the rear end of this development, so the only thing I regret is that this wasn't raised as an issue much earlier. Good luck everyone, and in closing - my sympathies to gleichman for this treatment, and the RPG hobby is richer for his making it clear that he doesn't want to be part of this community, not even in the difficult role he chose for himself over the past years.

I have to agree with the posters expressing dissapointment in that thread. I realize people have issues with gleichman, that he can be provocative, but i also think he didn't come out of that thread looking like the one to blame for it. I feel things have become more personal and hostile, and do believe we can do better. We have free speech here, that is part of the site's core principles. I do think people could be exercizing that a bit better than they have of late. I don't think folks involved realize how bad the thread reads. That was pretty much every poster on the thread, with a handful of exceptions, attacking the guy in a way that just comes off like bullying. It was the internet equivalent of holding someone down and kicking them while they are on the ground. Once it reaches that point, it doesn't matter if the person deserves it or not. There is smack talk, but then there is stuff like you had on this thread.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing more points of view explored rather than squashed down first thing.

Quote from: apparition13;772597Let me repeat that, don't attack people through their families.  

Likewise, a poster should not try to use his family members as shields when they feel attacked whether they are or not. Gleichman brought up his son's military service in a manner that shows he expected someone to take a potshot at that in an attempt to garner sympathy in a gaming discussion.

Quote from: apparition13;772597We are supposed to be self policing and better than that, this shows we aren't. So here's what I'm doing, I'm calling The Butcher, Novastar, Will, Marleycat, jeff37923, and Emperor Norton, and anyone I may have missed, out. I don't care if you think what you said was legit, you should have shut it, and you need to apologize for it. Make it flowery, make it a simple "I'm sorry", I don't care. Suck it up, do the right thing, and post an apology here, show we can be better than that.

No.

Quote from: jeff37923This tirade gave me a belly laugh.

Because really, fuck you gleichman for being such a pseudointellectual pussy that you have to use your own son's honorable military service as a shield to protect your hurt feelings over a gaming discussion.

Is nothing to be apologized for.

G - dog himself is probably laughing in his bunker now how well he trolled RPGsite, first by, as usual, playing on everyone's nerves, then dropping his son into the mix and quickly hiding behind his mention as soon as he's attacked. Especially as it's actually him that upped the ante.

Edit: Alright, I read it. Good grief people, do you need to really stoop so low to take on as pathetic of a troll as gleichmann? Come on, you need to dangle Champions in front of his face, or the fact that he apparently does not believe in circumstantial modifiers as "unfair" to make him trip on his own "wargaming" legs. That really was uncalled for.

QuoteI'm tired of people who make online fora the personal playground for their crusades and vendettas. If this community does not act quickly, it will have become a second rpg.net, except with not-safe-for-work language and imagery allowed to briefly interrupt its social hysteria. And in that case, I'll follow Melan, Benoist, and the others who have already left this forum as no longer a constructive, comfortable, and wortwhile social outlet for RPG discussions. I guess the community is already at the rear end of this development, so the only thing I regret is that this wasn't raised as an issue much earlier. Good luck everyone, and in closing - my sympathies to gleichman for this treatment, and the RPG hobby is richer for his making it clear that he doesn't want to be part of this community, not even in the difficult role he chose for himself over the past years.

Oh, please. Attacking kids is shit, but those who quit are usually exactly those who started with various vendettas themselves, not being able to dish out as much as they take.

And yes, I can understand the point of the risk of forum grudges and "forum reputation", but ultimately - there's no way for it not to form, because that's just how humans work. Gleichmann has been routinely waggling his cock in people's faces with theories that are bound to cause a raise, and double - downing and insulting them when they didn't like them. Tje floodgate opened as people started in cashing the checks he's been writing over and over. Hells' bells, I know I'm an horrible bastard here, and I don't expect people to magically forgive me whenever I argue with them. Cliques suck, but what can you do - little. Though I do agree that yes, they suck.

Were people fair to Gleichmann? No. But neither was he fair to them. Ultimately, people were offended, and we might actually loose some good posters over one troll, who might've once actually try to indulge in a conversation rather than stand on a soapbox and talk how much superior a way he developed in 80s was to everyone else's, gets shitpiled, as they quit in disgust over the shitpile. But let's not pretend Gleichmann is a poor innocent boy that was dogpiled by RPGsite's mean kids - he was a man who never managed to get a posse to dogpile others it seemed more like, as his ardent, anti - conversationalist and preaching stance seemed.

Was the kid thing necessary? Bloody hells, no. But he was pushing buttons all the time, so it's quite logical that eventually, things spin out of hand. He's not a lone voice of dissent being silenced, he's a man who's been tearing at so many throats, and yet is surprised when he throws a tantrum showing finally weakness that everyone jumps on that breach in the armour. This time, the breach was opened in such a way, he can finally do what he always wanted to - leave in a huff while feeling morally superior, with someone actually patting him on the way out.

Gleichman will be back...like herpes.

His "reaction" to Novastar was classic Gleichman and absolutely hysterical. I freaking love Gleichman's flame outs. It's almost a shame we have to wait a few months before we will again be "blessed" with his next trolling.

He'll be back...because who the fuck else will tolerate his shit?

Is this site nasty and vicious? Yeah, that's the price of free speech. That's the ugly part of free speech nobody likes to admit. You can't have free speech and "decency" or "protection for everyone's feels" or "only intellectual banter" - if you want free speech, you get the "good speech" and the "bad speech" too.

Do I want more Signal vs. Noise on theRPGsite? Hell yeah, but not at the cost of our freedom of speech. The best way to increase the Signal vs. Noise is for ALL OF US (and I will say me first) to put more energy into improving RPG threads and less energy into bullshit forum wank and spank.

May we all gain the wisdom to know which is which.

He brought up his one son early in the thread and kept referring to his son. If he didn't want his family involved, don't bring it up.

He repeatedly denigrated folks who don't stick to rules.

He then trawled for offense with his whole 'I'm sure you want my patriotic son killed horribly, you bastards!'

When that DIDN'T WORK, he pretended it did for drama.

I mean, seriously. Read he post he flamed out on. I reread it three times looking for an edit note, because his reaction seemed utterly unrelated.

The post didn't mention his son who was serving. Instead, it pointed out 'hey, wait, if you're bringing up stuff about your sons... don't you realize this logical conclusion of your posts? Think about it.'

That's... not directing anything negative toward either of his sons (whom Gleichman brought up).


I had nothing negative to say about G until he started talking. He hangs on his words, however much he'd desperately like to recast things as a cabal of stalkers and conspirators trying to make some random game guy look bad.

Quote from: Will;772656I had nothing negative to say about G until he started talking.

:rotfl:

Yeah, that's how it usually goes.

This is a site about RPGs. We enjoy the ability here to discuss RPGs and gaming freely, but there's also such a thing as accountability and responsibility.

Let's face it--we definitely have some posters that are more concerned seemingly with trolling and single-note posts rather than creating actual content, writing reviews, or doing more than drive-bys in threads. It's disappointing, and more than a bit sad, when I think of some of the vibrancy of posting and unique characters that have left this board.

I'm not out to turn this into some free speech issue or anything else, but I think the site would be a better place if more of us focused on the love of gaming, gaming design, and trading opinions with a baseline of respect, even in times of the warmest disagreements. I've certainly not always been the best at that myself, but for me, I'm going to pledge very hard to make contributions that make this a better place, take accountability for what I post, encourage gaming, and help make cool stuff. I'm going to say right here and now I'm going to focus on reviews and my upcoming Gen Con coverage. I hope others find their own great way to provide content and contribute.

I think if we all spent more time on gaming, less on drama, and did just one thoughtful post, review, or actual play write-up a week, this forum would live up to the hopes and ideals many of us had for it.

This isn't the type of board to ban someone unless things go very, very far indeed, so all this is really is an appeal. Let's do awesome stuff, and leave dogpiles, one-notes, drive-bys, and the extremes of drama to other places.

I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

This is a pretty open forum, which means that trolls, or people whom you perceive to be trolling, are going to swing by. The best way to get rid of them is to starve them of attention. If someone else is having a conversation with someone you don't like or if you don't care for the convo, then just move on. I know Gleichman has a strong personality (let's leave it at that) but you people weren't just attacking him, you were being extremely rude to me and the others who thought there was something worth discussing.

Ultimately if Gleichman or anyone else takes a crazy or dishonest stance in a discussion, even the people who engage that individual can just back off. When somebody seems crazy to you, they probably seem crazy to others as well. Your point is made, done.

Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1) because I think if you can see that folks are +ing your post in droves, and nobody is supporting the other poster, you might realize it's not really worth your time to engage in the "somebody is wrong on the internet" thing.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

This is a pretty open forum, which means that trolls, or people whom you perceive to be trolling, are going to swing by. The best way to get rid of them is to starve them of attention. If someone else is having a conversation with someone you don't like or if you don't care for the convo, then just move on. I know Gleichman has a strong personality (let's leave it at that) but you people weren't just attacking him, you were being extremely rude to me and the others who thought there was something worth discussing.

Ultimately if Gleichman or anyone else takes a crazy or dishonest stance in a discussion, even the people who engage that individual can just back off. When somebody seems crazy to you, they probably seem crazy to others as well. Your point is made, done.

Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1) because I think if you can see that folks are +ing your post in droves, and nobody is supporting the other poster, you might realize it's not really worth your time to engage in the "somebody is wrong on the internet" thing.

I agree. Gleichman can surely get on nerves, but when it comes to his point of view on games, it's very specific, but thoughtful. In my mind it's not too different from Pundit, you have to look past the bluster and read the point.

Ultimately, there was an actual discussion going on, and it derailed. The fact that the thread included posters who had no other interest than to wind things up is pretty shabby.