Quote from: jeff37923;552559John, I get where you are coming from on this. However, being able to exercise Free Speech does not give one license to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

And if he were doing the equivalent of yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, I'd support his ban but he wasn't.  What did he say that would be legally actionable?

Quote from: jeff37923;552559To me, B.T. was abusing the Free Speech stance of this site in order to voice some of the most objectionable crap possible because he knew that he would have been banned far sooner at any other site.

And it seems to me that a lot of people are here for that reason.  It's one of the few features that distinguishes this sites from the others, and, yes, it's a two-edged sword.  If you take away the, "You are free to speak your mind without fear," aspect of TheRPGSite, what distinguishes this site from the multitude of other role-playing message boards out there?  That this site tolerates the "abuse" of free speech is what illustrates that it takes free speech seriously, just like the ACLU suing on behalf of Nazis to permit them to march through a Jewish neighborhood illustrates their commitment to free speech.  It's easy to support free speech that you agree with or like.  The test is tolerating free speech that you don't like.

And if the goal is to eliminate "objectionable crap", then the moderation rules should be changed to that end and there is a lot of work to do to clean things up here.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;552568That isn't a violent crime Like rape or assault. I think there is a huge difference there.

He wasn't actually advocating committing a violent crime, as far as I can tell.  He was approving of threats, which he seemed to believe were empty threats unlikely to result in actual violence.

Quote from: John Morrow;552569And if he were doing the equivalent of yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, I'd support his ban but he wasn't.  What did he say that would be legally actionable?



And it seems to me that a lot of people are here for that reason.  It's one of the few features that distinguishes this sites from the others, and, yes, it's a two-edged sword.  If you take away the, "You are free to speak your mind without fear," aspect of TheRPGSite, what distinguishes this site from the multitude of other role-playing message boards out there?  That this site tolerates the "abuse" of free speech is what illustrates that it takes free speech seriously, just like the ACLU suing on behalf of Nazis to permit them to march through a Jewish neighborhood illustrates their commitment to free speech.  It's easy to support free speech that you agree with or like.  The test is tolerating free speech that you don't like.

And if the goal is to eliminate "objectionable crap", then the moderation rules should be changed to that end and there is a lot of work to do to clean things up here.

I dont know I think this was definitely getting past Bt simply expressing his ideas and getting more into the territory of advocating someone be harrased with threats of sexual violence. Even if that isn't what he actually meant and we are not fully grapsing the nuance of his statements, BT (if he is anything) is smart enough to know how easily statements of that nature are misunderstood. Given what we know of BT, i think he knew exactly what he was doing but trying to walk just up the line like he always does (except this time he crossed it and got banned). I dont think he added anything to the forum and I am not sorry to see this guy go.

See, I'm torn here. I've wanted BT gone for weeks, maybe months now.  Seriously I have.

Hell, I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't have supported a banning on any number of his earlier posts simply for the way they dragged the entire forum into the mud.

But this is where the line was drawn?  Entirely arbitrary.

The delimna is that I agree with John. Letting assholes be assholes... and in fact, calling them out on the nature of their assholiness is pretty much the bedrock of free speech.  Hell, in that thread he wasn't even being disruptive... something that could be said of many of his other thread-jacks.

And I hate the fucker.

Lets not forget: He wasn't calling for rape threats or even issuing rape threats. He basically was chortling that a dispicable person got rape threats.

Shadenfruede is now a bannable offense.

Good to know.

I agree 100% with everything John Morrow has said thus far in this thread.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;552572I dont know I think this was definitely getting past Bt simply expressing his ideas and getting more into the territory of advocating someone be harrased with threats of sexual violence.

I think that's a more accurate characterization of what he was doing, and I think there are many reasons why that's a wrong and vile opinion to have, but unless he believed the threats would translate into actual violence, I don't think that's an illegal or actionable opinion to hold and I don't see it being all that different from the general culture of ridicule and insults that permeates this site.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;552572Even if that isn't what he actually meant and we are not fully grapsing the nuance of his statements, BT (if he is anything) is smart enough to know how easily statements of that nature are misunderstood.

I also think he assumed he could honestly express his opinion to a moderator asking him to give it without being banned without warning.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;552572Given what we know of BT, i think he knew exactly what he was doing but trying to walk just up the line like he always does (except this time he crossed it and got banned). I dont think he added anything to the forum and I am not sorry to see this guy go.

It's hard to know where the line is when there isn't one.  I've yet to be banned on RPGnet, despite expressing conservative political opinions on Tangency, because I know where the line is.  People are getting banned here because they misjudge where the line is.  I don't think that's a good thing.  At least two of the moderators here were banned from RPGnet.  Glass houses.  Throwing stones.

As for adding things to the forum, I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't add anything.  Yeah, he said some really vile stuff, but I really did look at what he contributed here after the racist nonsense and there are cases where he was entirely on topic and contributed in a useful manner, including some of the threads that he started (see the list of threads that he started that I posted earlier in the thread).

Quote from: John Morrow;552533He's hardly the only "reprehensible asshole" on this site.  

Probably not, no. He was only by far the MOST reprehensible one.  The best argument for having kept him around would have been so that when someone accused me of being a racist, sexist, or homophobe, I could have pointed to him and said "no, see, THAT is a racist, sexist, homophobe".

Seriously dude, it is a "disruption issue".  If Flyingmice or J Arcane (to pick two random poster names out of a hat) had made the statements he'd made on the Mongoose thread, they would certainly not have been banned.  But when a guy who previously posted links to gay pornography (as part of a homophobic rant), and couldn't shut up on other threads about the inferiority of blacks and women posts that, after having received repeated warnings that he chose to ignore, and demonstrated a consistent habit of posting views seemingly meant to do nothing but outrage, I have no problem with one of my moderators banning his ass.

And given how if you look at his posting history, he went through a pattern of consistently getting more and more offensive and outrageous in his statements (with only slight periods of backing off when he'd been given a warning, laying low only to come back at it a little while later with something new that was twice as insulting or demented as what he'd said to earn the warning), I'm fairly certain that this was an inevitability.  I think its fine that he was banned now before he started suggesting that people should be sent to gas chambers or whatever the fuck he was going to say next in his little game of seeing how many people he could make mad at him.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;552542I agree with you in principle John, however, this isn't the Law of the Land we're talking about.  I've seen a handful of bans since I've gotten here and every one I've agreed with.  I don't see us creeping closer to the slippery slope, and I don't think it's enough simply to point out that there is one.

I do think however, there should be some method of petitioning a ban, explaining your side, etc.

For what, a kangaroo court? "Trouble tickets" so we can have the appearance of fairness? Then we really would be like RPG.net (well, with that and about a 5200% increase in the number of bans).

People can feel free to post here and try to argue why my call was wrong (or in this case, my support of one of my mods' call); but there's very little chance that it will change my mind.  The reason for that is that there's actually very little that's arbitrary about any ban we give out; as BT's very existence on this forum so very long proved, the level of just how far you have to go and what you have to do to earn a banning on this site is so incredibly high that odds are when I finally do swing the hammer (or agree to it being swung) its because I'm utterly convinced that there's no other option.

Exhibit A: Daedalus was threatening physical violence against me and spam-posted my real-world address on several of my blog entries, and I still didn't ban him.

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichman;552557Ok, this puts things into the proper perspective in my mind. As bad as B.T. was, he's really not all that far from the people who banned him (with one possible exception).

In the end one group of jerks with power kicked out a lone jerk because they could- ignoring their own high-minded words about the speech freedom in order to do so.

I never expected it to be otherwise.

Seriously, dude? Do you also think that people who like listening to the heavy metal music are every bit as bad as Aryan Nation Skinheads that talk about a coming race war?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;552586Probably not, no. He was only by far the MOST reprehensible one.  The best argument for having kept him around would have been so that when someone accused me of being a racist, sexist, or homophobe, I could have pointed to him and said "no, see, THAT is a racist, sexist, homophobe".

And I think that, in fact, has some value.  I'd rather such views be out in the open where they can be refuted than in the shadows where they can fester in secret.

Quote from: RPGPundit;552586Seriously dude, it is a "disruption issue".  If Flyingmice or J Arcane (to pick two random poster names out of a hat) had made the statements he'd made on the Mongoose thread, they would certainly not have been banned.

Then he should have been banned as the result of a deliberative decision identifying the real problem rather than as a knee-jerk response to a particular comment in a thread that wouldn't otherwise have been banworthy.  

Quote from: RPGPundit;552586But when a guy who previously posted links to gay pornography (as part of a homophobic rant), and couldn't shut up on other threads about the inferiority of blacks and women posts that, after having received repeated warnings that he chose to ignore, and demonstrated a consistent habit of posting views seemingly meant to do nothing but outrage, I have no problem with one of my moderators banning his ass.

There are plenty of people here who have a habit of posting views seemingly meant to do nothing but outrage.  Isn't that pretty much why they banned you from RPGnet?  If his racist, sexist, and homophobic rants cross some particular line, then draw that line and let people know it's there.  

Quote from: RPGPundit;552586And given how if you look at his posting history, he went through a pattern of consistently getting more and more offensive and outrageous in his statements (with only slight periods of backing off when he'd been given a warning, laying low only to come back at it a little while later with something new that was twice as insulting or demented as what he'd said to earn the warning), I'm fairly certain that this was an inevitability.

It may well have been inevitable, but this seemed like a stupid trigger for the banning that sends the wrong message, especially when I got three different answers as to why he was banned, most having nothing to do with the offense that got him banned..  If his bannable offense was being racist, sexist, and/or homophobic, then ban him for that, just like you banned a person a while back for advocating pedophilia.

Quote from: Spike;552574Lets not forget: He wasn't calling for rape threats or even issuing rape threats. He basically was chortling that a dispicable person got rape threats.

Shadenfruede is now a bannable offense.

Good to know.

No, being a guy like BT is a bannable offense. By being a guy like BT, I mean wishing rape upon a person because it would "fix her", after suggesting that blacks are genetically inferior to whites, after posting a link to gay pornographic images, after talking about how all women are cunts that are basically sub-human, after talking about how homosexuality is a disease that is destroying our society, and the whole time making it very blatant that you're intentionally trolling to try to be as offensive and odious as possible to piss off everyone and making fun of the fact that the moderation of this site protected him from being banned from essentially fucking up this site.  The last point was where he was dead wrong.

RPGPundit

Quote from: John Morrow;552583It's hard to know where the line is when there isn't one.  I've yet to be banned on RPGnet, despite expressing conservative political opinions on Tangency, because I know where the line is.  People are getting banned here because they misjudge where the line is.  I don't think that's a good thing.  At least two of the moderators here were banned from RPGnet.  Glass houses.  Throwing stones.

RPGnet has currently started a thread on the same subject as the thread BT was banned on here, where they have systematically culled through threadbans and outright bans anyone who didn't share the collective opinion that Maladicta or whatever-the-fuck-her-name-is is nothing short of a hero, and Mongoose should be run out of business.
They've already sanctioned more people on that ONE THREAD than we have in the last three years combined. And they've done it to specifically control the flow of the conversation in favor of unconditional support for one particular ideological point of view.

Really, Morrow, you're better than this.  You honestly mean to say that in an objective factual comparison of the actions taken on RPGnet and the actions taken here there isn't a motherfucking 18-parsec abyss of distance?

RPGPundit

Congratulations!  Banning on this particular subject has lead those on grognards.txt to believe OHT is their tool (from RobMuadib here) and they are taking credit for banning B.T.  From SA's grognards.txt:

Quote from: Lochness_Hamster

Quote from: EttinI take back a bunch of stuff I said about RPGSite, One Horse Town is a cool dude.

This was all started by you  , the amount of lovely posters you have had banned on multiple forums is a credit to you

also checked into Circus Maximus.. nothing has changed they need another Anti-surprise sex Penguin.

Quote from: RPGPundit;552590Seriously, dude?

Yes seriously, and for the very reasons John listed (plus your own personal anti-catholic bile that comes out now and then). I don't see enough daylight between you (and Benoist for that matter) and B.T. to read a big print pop-up book by. The difference is only in the details of which sins you indulge in, otherwise the language and end result is much the same.

Well there is another difference, on therpgsite you have the power.


Now if you don't mind, I'm going to get something for my stomach. The idea of defending B.T.'s in any way has made me a little sick and I'll leave the good fight for John to continue. He's better at this than I.

Quote from: RPGPundit;552595Really, Morrow, you're better than this.  You honestly mean to say that in an objective factual comparison of the actions taken on RPGnet and the actions taken here there isn't a motherfucking 18-parsec abyss of distance?

I was contrasting the two, not saying that they were the same.  My point was not that their bans are more reasonable but that they draw some pretty clear lines, and it's no mistake that at least some of the people who have gotten banned there deliberately cross the line because they know exactly where it is.  I'm not seeing any sort of clear line here.  Instead I'm seeing something closer to US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's test for pornography: "I know it when I see it," which is also problematic from a free speech perspective.