QuoteAlso, I question whether designing a game is truly a creative path at all, rather than just the intermediary step onto becoming a salesman.

:rolleyes:

Take the smug condescension to the Forge thanks.

Quote from: J Arcane:rolleyes:

Take the smug condescension to the Forge thanks.

What, that the designer path as it is now being advocated is just intermediary (and probably subordinate to) to becoming a salesman?  I actually, truly believe that.

And although I wouldn't restrict such a designation to the forgies, I think they'd probably admit it as well. Whether we're talking about "let me sell you my game" or "let me sell you my philosophy"; that's what we're really talking about.

In a way this is the pitfall of having "theory" be so prominent in what is supposed to be (and once was) an artistic community. In reality, forgie theory is just dogma. Everything-- or nearly everything-- is critiqued on the basis of how it does or doesn't meet the theory.

I'm not sure how you got dysfunction out of that, but I'm getting a feeling you want to pick a fight over it!

Kinda funny. I'm not sure where to go with that, though.

Look.

The best these guys can offer is design by committee.

Half the time I hear these little "vignettes" and they come across like stuff someone put on a brochure. Here, just reread this shit, for a second.

Quote"Why, my character is really good at being the best there is at everything!"

"How about your character is really good at believing that he's the best there is at everything!"

"Even better!" my friend replied, a nasty gleam in his eye. And boy, he worked that skill to death in the game that followed....

IT'S A FUCKING MENTOS COMMERCIAL.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI mean, the actual gaming part, I get. That's totally fun. But game design? Is sort of a lonely fun. I guess it used to be more fun back when you could declare yourself an amateur psychologist and all. I hear that's turning out a lot less fun this year.

QuoteBut really, I want to put forth my hypothesis that the real creativity is not in the structures and systems, it's in the content. Thats the guys who sit down and make maps, or create a cast of characters or design scenarios or whatever. What used to be called "Setting design" (and is now pretty much just tossed aside, because "system matters soooo much") is where the real artists (freelancers, graphic artists and all those guys) pretty much live. It's very much out of vogue.

Again:  :rolleyes:

More verbosely:  Just where the fuck do you get off implying that somehow game desin is "less creative" than anything else?

:forge:

Design a game?

But what if, like me, you find you're utterly lacking in the talent department? AND couldn't care less?

D-Does that mean I can't play?

That's me too, Pierce. Good thing there's people out there designing stuff I like.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDesign a game?

But what if, like me, you find you're utterly lacking in the talent department? AND couldn't care less?

D-Does that mean I can't play?

No.

Any more than, as Maw suggests, designing precludes you from playing.

The relief!

droog, WTF is up with the Zizek sig? That's like twenty lines over the rpg.net limit. You ditch this now, or I'll channel Heidegger.

Actually, make that Hardt & Negri, the dynamic duo.

Hey, my last one was bigger and you didn't complain about that!

Quote from: J ArcaneAgain:  :rolleyes:

More verbosely:  Just where the fuck do you get off implying that somehow game desin is "less creative" than anything else?

:forge:

Where do I get off? I dunno. I'm just putting it out there. Disagree if you like, but it's my honest observation.

Here's a couple of facts:

Most of the Forgie game designs are actually cribbing off of each other hugely.

Most of them have many of the same mechanics, with only slight re-arranging.
 
Even in cases where they aren't directly taking the system of one game and adding or changing (which happens more often than you'd think), they hit a lot of similarities. Dice pools. "Conflict resolution". "Shared narration". It's pretty much design-by-checklist. There are a few people that are doing new and different things but.. ehh. I mean, the new and different things don't always work that great either.

The point is: new and different or old and stodgy or anything else, people who obsessively design game systems aren't actually doing anything really hugely indicative of artistic merit. I include my favorite systems in there as well.  

I kinda suspect thats the appeal for some of it; "Declare yourself a beat poet"

Quote from: J ArcaneNo.

Any more than, as Maw suggests, designing precludes you from playing.

I don't actually think designing necessarily precludes anyone from playing.

I do think that people who have internalized the dime-store psychology of the forge are on a one way trip out of the hobby. They are being trained to not play with anyone they don't know, and to not tolerate anyone who doesn't play "the same way". Many of them quit playing entirely (and they admit it. I mean, come one, I've seen the livejournal posts.) Many of these guys pretty much only get together once a year. Many go to the biggest gaming convention in the world and spend the entire time 1) playTESTING and DEMOing each others designs and 2) hanging out in the dealers hall. (By the way, I can tell you from experience: least interesting place to hang out.)

 Most of what they talk about is sales talk: which things are selling, and which ideas are selling. And who is buying.

Some of them are even stuck roleplaying over the phone (which is kinda funny to me for some reason). ah, but for an accident of geography.

Many of the guys who can actually admit to having not actually touched gaming in months are obsessive contributors to message boards like this one.
I mean, hey, I can admit I'm an opinionated crank, but I have had a weekly session for the last 6 years. My view? The Bitter Non gamer is a real phenomenon.

Anyhow, I look at this shit, and I think to myself "this is crazy" . "here's a dice, now design a game"? Fuck that. Why not just actually be part of the hobby?"

We don't need the brochures and the Mentos commercials.

I'm playing along, JArcane. I guess your'e trying to argue with me (?) or something, but your'e not really making much sense. What we have now is you make an accusation that doesn't reflect what I actually think, then I clarify myself.

I mean, geez, just ask.

My own data point is this: some years ago I was on the verge of losing interest in roleplaying altogether. I was bored. I'd moved interstate, and without my old-time group there seemed to be nothing keeping me in the so-called hobby.

Then I discovered a bunch of interesting games that propelled me into actively seeking people to play with. At this point I've met about twenty or thirty people and played with people I didn't know for the first time since 1982. I've got access to as much – more – roleplaying as I've got time for.

Just my story. I'm glad there's people doing stuff with games that meets my needs, or even stuff that doesn't. Personally I think it's more engineering than art, but the world needs engineers. I can't build my own motorbike but I like riding them.

Somebody's got to make the guitars, and I've seen some damn nice guitars in my (short) time.

Set the three dice in front of you.

d20 = Conflict points. Set to 10
d10 = Relationship points. Set to 5
d6 = Fate points. Set to 1

You spend ___ points to do _____:
Conflict: whoever spends more wins the argument, single blind bid.
Relationship: one to create a new NPC and have some relationship with him/her (hate, love, rivalry, family)
Fate: one to create one major plot point or otherwise massively guide the story in a certain direction.

You get ___points back by doing ____:
Conflict: Get 1 back everytime you shut up and let someone else talk.
Relationship: get 1 back everytime you form or permantly end a relationship with another persons NPC (fall in love with Bob's sister? Get one.  Kill her in anger and end that. Get one)
Fate: Everytime a major plot thread is finished, everybody gets 1.  Get one if everyone at the table really likes what you just did and feels like you deserve one.

Diceless gaming with dice, hooray story games.

CA:  Is there a differentiated "GM" role?  Or does everyone take that on by using the Fate points to throw in plots?

The relationship dice (particularly the way one earns them back) look to push it toward very Amber-like family relationships.  "Oh, you've got a girlfriend?  Cool.  I fall in love with her, then kidnap her in a jealous fit and exile her to an island of magic snakes.  Two points for me!"

What I think AM is saying is that "DIY game design" and "punk rock" aren't really parallel. "Punk rock" is a rebellion against consumerism, a challenge to people to entertain themselves instead of depending on socially-anointed "artists". Drawing a parallel between that and "DIY game design" suggests that people who play D&D are equivalent to people who just buy records at the store and never make music for themselves and their friends.