SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

[worldbuilding] Help me be a bit more original

Started by The Butcher, January 17, 2015, 10:18:02 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Von

#15
Quote from: The Butcher;810320How does one go about breathing life into a fantasy world without making it a patchwork of explicit imitations of Earth history with fantasy stuff thrown in for good measure?

I've been blogging about this for a while but here's the gist of what I've come up with so far.

  • Reject the first idea you have about anything.
  • If you think something is cool, identify what it is about it that makes you feel that way, and use those qualities rather than the thing itself.
  • Focus on impressions rather than nitpicky details.
  • If you're going to use a map of a real place, trace it, flip it through ninety degrees, and invert some features; a lake becomes a plateau, a forest becomes a mountain range, whatever.
  • Go back to the basic options of whatever game you're using - for instance D&D - and put them to some new purpose without reinventing the wheel. In my campaign elves are degenerate barbarians with a Conanesque wildness and swagger to them - no mechanics have been altered, I've just decided to play off a different sterotype for them.

Those are a few things that are starting to work for me. The people who say 'fun game first' are half right, but I find the game is more fun for me if I'm having to do a bit of re-imagining and stretch myself beyond the tired old saws that we've all seen a thousand times before. Many of my players have expressed similar sentiments - the stock tropes have become tired for them - and so the challenge for me is making the setting interesting without stressing over needless house rules and petty details.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;809355Yeah, for that reason I enjoy playing with newbies more than veterans. All the newbies I played with (close friends) took to it easily, while the two veterans would never stop backseat DMing and getting upset when things didn\'t go the way they would\'ve done it.

I find this applies to pretty much everything.

rawma

Quote from: Opaopajr;811699Does it matter? ;)

Insanity says yes, but there are probably drugs that would make the answer no.

QuoteHowever, I do feel a walk-thru example for The Butcher would help. First we'd need his input of what he wants to work with. And of that, what will be familiar and what will be alien. A brainstorm of prioritized words will do.

Yeah, that would probably be the only way to be more helpful. And it would be interesting in its own right.

The Butcher

Quote from: Opaopajr;811478Sounds like you want to paint vividly the vaguely familiar in new forms.

I wouldn't have put it better myself. :)

Quote from: Opaopajr;811478Easiest way? Splice wholes into composite idea parts. Patchwork the ones you want together in a humanized (relatable) pattern. Reach for that new form by sinking that core relatable pattern with its vivid composite colors into yourself. Let it marinate.

Quote from: Von;811722
  • Reject the first idea you have about anything.
  • If you think something is cool, identify what it is about it that makes you feel that way, and use those qualities rather than the thing itself.
  • Focus on impressions rather than nitpicky details.
  • If you're going to use a map of a real place, trace it, flip it through ninety degrees, and invert some features; a lake becomes a plateau, a forest becomes a mountain range, whatever.
  • Go back to the basic options of whatever game you're using - for instance D&D - and put them to some new purpose without reinventing the wheel. In my campaign elves are degenerate barbarians with a Conanesque wildness and swagger to them - no mechanics have been altered, I've just decided to play off a different sterotype for them.

Great advice! Much obliged, gentlemen.

Quote from: Opaopajr;811699However, I do feel a walk-thru example for The Butcher would help. First we'd need his input of what he wants to work with. And of that, what will be familiar and what will be alien. A brainstorm of prioritized words will do.

Quote from: rawma;811823Yeah, that would probably be the only way to be more helpful. And it would be interesting in its own right.

Sounds like fun! Where do we start?

Opaopajr

Let's make a culture on Europa.

Part 1: Color Palette & Representative Shapes
1. Give me at least two cultures, real or tropes, to mash up (but no greater than four).
2. At least one of these be vaguely relatable to humanity -- something players can latch onto as a reality anchor.
3. From those listed cultural tropes give me a Prioritized List of Words of desired components.

Part 1 is a) selecting existing lenses that please you, and b) latching onto at least one which is easily recognizable, then c) picking interesting forms and colors from within the others.

With that we'll chat on how we'll progress to Part 2: Stained Glass Patterns.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

The Butcher

Quote from: Opaopajr;812213Let's make a culture on Europa.

The Jovian moon? Are we doing SF?

rawma

Quote from: The Butcher;812224The Jovian moon? Are we doing SF?

I read it as meaning a fantasy version of Europe, perhaps from some setting or game I don't know about. Partly because I prefer fantasy RPGs and partly because your original post talked about fantasy worlds.

Perhaps we could start with the default list from the original post:

Quote from: The Butcher;810320Usually, when I build a fantasy world, I default to this sort of obvious substitution. You can expect most of my fantasy (esp. D&D) worlds to feature the kingdom of knights in full plate and fancy postcard-worthy castles; the icy realm of hardy, seafaring, giant-slaying barbarians to the north; the confederacy of mercantile city-state republics to the sun-kissed south; and so on, and so forth.

So, Charlemagne/King Arthur; Vikings/Norse mythology; various Mediterranean nations? Choose one, and throw in extra cultures to mash up with it. I'm not sure what "Prioritized List of Words of desired components" would be - perhaps magics or technology available or common, what the economy is based on, what professions or institutions hold the most power, what sort of adventuring hooks you expect, maybe just color?

Phillip

#21
Quote from: The Butcher;810573Now that sounds intriguing. Care to elaborate?
Contrast how much is so obvious in Howard's Hyborian Age vs. Leiber's Nehwon (in which the Mingols and Fafhrd's northern barbarians stand out, but the latter have as I recall a matriarchal spin).

Now, part of this is that Leiber - along with Lord Dunsany, Jack Vance and others - often starts with satire that takes on a life of its own. One way it does that is by carrying through the supernatural and other elements that are notably different from Earthly starting points. The Street of Gods, and the gods of (vs the gods in) Lankhmar, for example.

With such a grab bag as D&D,  deciding what not to lump into a given world can also be significant. For instance, your world will stand out if it doesn't feature the usual set of Tolkien-ish races (dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs). Literary fantasy worlds tend to focus on certain conceits and inspirations.

Narnia: medieval Christian cosmology, but applied to a different creation; Talking Beasts; Classical and Norse mythological creatures. Calormen is very Arabian Nights, and the Telmarines are from Earth, but everthing gets a touch that makes it Narnian.

Earthsea: True Names; Polynesia; Taoism. Note that the technology and such don't stand out as Polynesian, nor is anything explicitly Taoist; other factors than the props are what work their way in.

Witch World: the Old Race; Gates; animal-human bonds (a Norton hallmark).

Young Kingdoms: the Lords of Chaos (and Law, and elements and beasts).

Recluce: another take on Order vs. Chaos

I think the fundamental real-world connection is perennial human nature. Cultural manifestations are rather parochial, familiarity leading us to regard as 'normal' things that may strike others as bizarre.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

Phillip

Dragons are notably different in Tolkien, Lewis, LeGuin, McCaffrey, Delaney, Stafford, etc.

What do dragons mean to you? Tolkien found wonder in the forest; what is magical to you?  What visions appear in your dreams?

Put your personal stamp on what is otherwise familiar, and you add a fresh dimension that builds up element by element.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

The Butcher

Quote from: Opaopajr;812213Part 1: Color Palette & Representative Shapes
1. Give me at least two cultures, real or tropes, to mash up (but no greater than four).
2. At least one of these be vaguely relatable to humanity -- something players can latch onto as a reality anchor.
3. From those listed cultural tropes give me a Prioritized List of Words of desired components.

Part 1 is a) selecting existing lenses that please you, and b) latching onto at least one which is easily recognizable, then c) picking interesting forms and colors from within the others.

With that we'll chat on how we'll progress to Part 2: Stained Glass Patterns.

Quote from: rawma;812278So, Charlemagne/King Arthur; Vikings/Norse mythology; various Mediterranean nations? Choose one, and throw in extra cultures to mash up with it. I'm not sure what "Prioritized List of Words of desired components" would be - perhaps magics or technology available or common, what the economy is based on, what professions or institutions hold the most power, what sort of adventuring hooks you expect, maybe just color?

Let's keep this one simple. Bog-standard classic D&D campaign, with an eye towards stronghold building and rulership at higher levels, so a feudal background with decent swathes of unclaimed (or more accurately, lost to banditry and monsters) wilderness are a must.

My usual history-calqued approach is expedient, but lately it feels a bit too much like a theme park. What I'm looking for is color. The "not in Kansas anymore" feel.

Let's offer a non-Western element, albeit with some resonance, for each of these four nations.

For the knightly realm (Charlemagne/Arthur as filtered through chivalry romance, i.e. with the look and feel of 13th- or 14th-century CE Southern France), let's add a dash of another fragmented nation filtered through literature: Warring States China as seen by wuxia literature.

For the Viking/Norse equivalent, let's pair them with another seafaring, slave-taking Proud Warrior Race: the Maori.

For the Italian merchant princes, how about their Mediterranean forerunners, the Phoenicians?

LordVreeg

Quote from: The Butcher;810379That's not really where I'm stuck. It's less about consistency or detail (beyond a minimum), and more about evoking cool imagery.

In any case, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I just want to find a new "balance point" outside the same-old same-old.



That's one way to go about it, but tracking down all the ripples from those changes (across society, economy, etc.) is more work than I'm looking for.
This is what I saw immediately.

Firsr off, worldbuilding is a creative enterprise, and like any, creates a kind of satisfaction in itself.  So while good players can jump into anything, creating something that makes the GM want to run it do to the GM's interest will also make for a better game.

Secondly, the devils are in the details.  Making grand, sweeping 'differences' is not always needed.  I enjoy taking familar tropes and subtly turning them on their side.  Delve deeply nto politics, guilds, linguistics, the logic behind magic, faiths vs the peculiar idea of patron deity, etc, and you'll make some deeper, more meaningful change3s that PCs will actually glom onto.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
\'Orbis non sufficit\'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

Opaopajr

Oh poo, I was hoping you'd stay with the process for a while at least. You've already beelined into a tried pastiche. Stay with it and see if you can make magic.

Of course I meant the Jovian moon. And of it being SF? Does it matter? It is merely a location. Technological epoch (let alone humanity) is another matter.

Shall we try to mash up a compromise?
Keep Europa. It's very "not in Kansas anymore."
Add two or three of your medieval countries, or their stand-ins.
(I like the idea of Vietnamese Boat People, too, just to throw that out there.)
Splice the elements from each, including Europa, that you want to use.
Highlight one element that humanizes the location.

Next we'll stitch together Patterns!
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

rawma

Quote from: The Butcher;810320What I'm looking for is a new equilibrium. I'd like my next designs to not hinge on such obvious calques, and yet to avoid being seen as too exotic or out-there.

... I have difficulty visualizing what a civilization that combines wildly divergent cultures (Abbasid Caliphate and Song China! Aztecs and Imperial Rome!) might look like.

How does one go about breathing life into a fantasy world without making it a patchwork of explicit imitations of Earth history with fantasy stuff thrown in for good measure?

Quote from: The Butcher;812356Let's offer a non-Western element, albeit with some resonance, for each of these four nations.

For the knightly realm (Charlemagne/Arthur as filtered through chivalry romance, i.e. with the look and feel of 13th- or 14th-century CE Southern France), let's add a dash of another fragmented nation filtered through literature: Warring States China as seen by wuxia literature.

For the Viking/Norse equivalent, let's pair them with another seafaring, slave-taking Proud Warrior Race: the Maori.

For the Italian merchant princes, how about their Mediterranean forerunners, the Phoenicians?

You want to combine wildly divergent cultures, and you throw together very similar cultures in each case? Maybe that's part of the problem.

The only thing that jumps out at me in the first is the Warring States part; a civil war conducted entirely through chivalric combat, perhaps even through tournaments of skilled champions -- the common people united and at peace while the knights and paladins and monks battle in arranged melees, with elaborately decorated armor and ever more bizarre weapon designs, to advance the interests of one region over another - the first faction to abandon this tradition and engage in conventional warfare would be brought down by all the others and by angry mobs of the common people. If that's not satisfactory, throw in ancestor worship in the form of ghosts and other undead that act to enforce the traditions when necessary, with elaborate ceremonies and festivals to placate them the rest of the time. But even so, beneath the surface, some or all of the regions engage in vicious campaigns of espionage and assassination.

For the second, I liked the movie Whale Rider; so I envision Vikings who eschew ships in favor of aquatic beasts: rather than whales, modestly sized amphibious kaiju (I want something with legs so they can be a possible enemy even away from the sea), and Vikings living farther north than possible without magic dressed as if for the tropics - their command of elemental magics of sea and storm protect them and even allow them to breathe underwater while traveling with their beasts. I leave unresolved the question of whether they have domesticated the sea monsters, command them with magic or have formed a pact with them or some other power that commands the beasts. The warring states maintain castles to house and protect the immense weapons that drive off the larger kaiju and the raiding parties riding them; most of the castles occupy commanding sites near the seashore.

For the third: ancient merchant kingdoms with a history of innovative practices, faced with the Polar Barbarians' command of the seas, would turn to methods of flight for their trade, and perhaps even enchant floating cities to protect them from the strengths of the other kingdoms (invasion by land or raids by sea). So, flying ships of trade but not war, maintained at great expense to bring home the even greater profits of trade.

Is this the sort of thing you want, or is it too basic and old hat for you?

Von

Quote from: rawma;812634You want to combine wildly divergent cultures, and you throw together very similar cultures in each case? Maybe that's part of the problem.

The only thing that jumps out at me in the first is the Warring States part; a civil war conducted entirely through chivalric combat, perhaps even through tournaments of skilled champions -- the common people united and at peace while the knights and paladins and monks battle in arranged melees, with elaborately decorated armor and ever more bizarre weapon designs, to advance the interests of one region over another - the first faction to abandon this tradition and engage in conventional warfare would be brought down by all the others and by angry mobs of the common people. If that's not satisfactory, throw in ancestor worship in the form of ghosts and other undead that act to enforce the traditions when necessary, with elaborate ceremonies and festivals to placate them the rest of the time. But even so, beneath the surface, some or all of the regions engage in vicious campaigns of espionage and assassination.

For the second, I liked the movie Whale Rider; so I envision Vikings who eschew ships in favor of aquatic beasts: rather than whales, modestly sized amphibious kaiju (I want something with legs so they can be a possible enemy even away from the sea), and Vikings living farther north than possible without magic dressed as if for the tropics - their command of elemental magics of sea and storm protect them and even allow them to breathe underwater while traveling with their beasts. I leave unresolved the question of whether they have domesticated the sea monsters, command them with magic or have formed a pact with them or some other power that commands the beasts. The warring states maintain castles to house and protect the immense weapons that drive off the larger kaiju and the raiding parties riding them; most of the castles occupy commanding sites near the seashore.

For the third: ancient merchant kingdoms with a history of innovative practices, faced with the Polar Barbarians' command of the seas, would turn to methods of flight for their trade, and perhaps even enchant floating cities to protect them from the strengths of the other kingdoms (invasion by land or raids by sea). So, flying ships of trade but not war, maintained at great expense to bring home the even greater profits of trade.

Is this the sort of thing you want, or is it too basic and old hat for you?

You've just described about 60% of my campaign world. Great minds?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;809355Yeah, for that reason I enjoy playing with newbies more than veterans. All the newbies I played with (close friends) took to it easily, while the two veterans would never stop backseat DMing and getting upset when things didn\'t go the way they would\'ve done it.

I find this applies to pretty much everything.

Opaopajr

I realize I should give an example on how to splice a full element into component parts, and that Europa is quite an irregular order, so I should give example. This can illustrate how to break down and then prioritize material in preparation for making new Patterns.

Europa (so far known),  not prioritized:
1. satellite of a gas giant, middle-far distance from the system's star.
1a. gas giant planet will dominate skyline.
1b. gas giant's other satellites (and rings) will dominate after that.
1c. system's star would be faint, followed by planets and distant stars, etc.

2. smooth ice surface. high albedo. ice likely incredibly deep.
2a. periodic water vapor plumes (geysers?) of 120 mi.
2b. thin, mostly oxygen atmosphere.
2c. massive Lineae (lines) cross satellite, Lenticulae (freckles) dot some areas.

3. induced magnetic field, likely to massive ocean lube between ice & crust.
3a. tidal flexing between Europa & Jupiter & other satellites. ice tidally locked to Jupiter, iron core? & silicon crust? lubed by saline ocean? to spin. magnetism.
3b. ice plate tectonics. only other solar system body known to have similar tectonics.
3c. theory between massive liquid ocean or semi-solid ice slush ocean.

You have your own "plausible" aquatic Hollow World (AD&D 1e setting). People settling underneath 'continents' of ice watching (sonar-ing) the changing crust in the darkness "above." Thin atmosphere at the surface, a surface with big, crossing grooves, chaotic rippling, and vapor geysers far taller than Mt. Everest amid a sky dominated by the violent swirling bands of storms on Jupiter. And both separated by who knows how many 'dungeon levels' of labyrinthine ice.

All you need now is an anchor to make it feel "human enough" to play.

Take Ideas, break them down into Colors & Forms. Use the Colors & Forms to create a new Pattern. Select at least one Recognizable Form to anchor the fantastic to humanity. Use the new Pattern as a new Lens to solve the Everyday.

Where do find the fantastic? Can you prioritize what it is that moves you? Passion is an infectious, international language. Have faith, leap.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

The Butcher

Quote from: rawma;812634Is this the sort of thing you want, or is it too basic and old hat for you?

No, that's exactly it! Amazing stuff.

If you think the culture pairings I put forward aren't divergent enough, what would you use?