It could be reasonably argued that, to a degree, it's impossible to build a fantasy world without drawing from history. Even those lauded for their originality, such as Tékumel and Glorantha, have fairly obvious inspirations (which is why the whole "too weird to live" line of argumentation feel so foreign -- pun unintended -- to me).

Still, there are degrees of calque at work here. WFRP's Old World is a pretty transparent calque of several historical cultures, usually from an exaggerated, literary viewpoint that very often plays on stereotypes for humor (Bretonnia, looking at you), while BECMI/RC's Known World a.k.a. Mystara is a more sedate, but also very obvious mélange of historical inspirations including Roman, Native American, Norse, Mongol and Arabic stand-ins, to name a few.

Usually, when I build a fantasy world, I default to this sort of obvious substitution. You can expect most of my fantasy (esp. D&D) worlds to feature the kingdom of knights in full plate and fancy postcard-worthy castles; the icy realm of hardy, seafaring, giant-slaying barbarians to the north; the confederacy of mercantile city-state republics to the sun-kissed south; and so on, and so forth.

This method's got its advantages; mainly, that players usually have an easier time grasping and relating to the world, as they have an easier time figuring out what the architecture, dress codes, society, etc. on each of these places might look like.

What I'm looking for is a new equilibrium. I'd like my next designs to not hinge on such obvious calques, and yet to avoid being seen as too exotic or out-there.

I find Glorantha a great example because, decades of canon notwithstanding, the Dragon Pass situation is easy to grasp. There's the storm-worshipping, freedom-loving barbarians (that look and read a lot like Ancient Celts and/or Norsemen), and there's the highly-regimented empire (that feels like Imperial Rome and Gupta India had a theocratic, Kali-worshipping baby) and they're at war. I think what usually confuses people about Glorantha is the metaphysics and mythology and that's a whole other can of worms; the world itself is easy to get into.

This is the sort of feel I'm going after. When I do mash-ups I often feel they come across as too obvious (Arthurian Britain and Late Medieval Southern France! Medieval Italy and the Hanseatic League!), and I have difficulty visualizing what a civilization that combines wildly divergent cultures (Abbasid Caliphate and Song China! Aztecs and Imperial Rome!) might look like.

How does one go about breathing life into a fantasy world without making it a patchwork of explicit imitations of Earth history with fantasy stuff thrown in for good measure?

Try something less common than an Arthurian/Medieval Europe pastiche.

Go with a more Dark Ages Europe where instead of the Big Empire being Roman it is Eastern Roman with Cataphracts instead of infantry and the barbarian are Frankish infantry or Visigothic cavalry. You can still have Northmen but now they may be river boat raiders/traders and members of the Varangian guard instead of sea raiders.

Or put Rome (either Western or Eastern version) and China closer together so they interact more easily. Then you get a conflict between two big Empires one familiar and one less familiar. Or use a Warring States period China with mulitiple kingdoms and potential proto unifiers. The PCs could be Westerners who are trying to prevent the Eastern evil, tyrannical Sorcerer who is the potential unifier and founder of an Empire of Evil. Or change it up and the PCs help (or become) potential unifiers and the Western Empire are the evil foreigners who are trying to prevent unification to keep the East weak and divided.

Serious question:

Which is more important... "solid worldbuilding" or "fun game?"

Because I've found (your experience may vary etc) that over 40 years most players just want to jump in and play, and are perfectly happy with a world made up of various tropes that you've Scotch taped together.

And so that's my world now.  Fun game first.

I'm with OG.

The key is accessibility. With familiar tropes, players can absorb material easier and faster, and you can focus on exceptions or instances of familiar stuff.

Spend an hour creating the political hierarchy of the Emeraldine Traansgereld, or an hour developing dukes and barons of the upper Marches along the Brokespine mountains?

It cuts down on the barrier between player and game.
'I circuitine my elo'sh manzar from it's resting crucible and focus the fourth ray on the enemies viewing orbs'
Vs
'I draw my karabela and slash at the duke's face, but I keep a bit back for surprises.'

Over time I think we can become adept at blending things in less obvious ways.


Or, like in scifi, pick a few bits that are wildly different to spice things up carefully.

How about a world with strange geology or other natural phenomena?

I forget where I heard it but someone described a world where the air was "normal" in thick forests but thinned out beyond them. So everyone lived in the forests and the oceans and plains were no-mans land.

How about a "Riverworld" type of planet? Either one long endless river or a world of many mountains and most of every continent is a network of rivers?

A world where there are no continents, just lots of islands everywhere.

A world where there are frequent earthquakes. So much so that building anything beyond villages and towns is pointless. No one uses stone in construction except for a foundation.

A world where things were normal for a long time then some disaster occurred. A string of volcanoes blew or an asteroid impact and now the skies are darker and the air is colder and many plants and animals are perishing.

Or you could remove something we take for granted. What if there were no dogs in the world? Or no cats to control the rat populations? No horses? A world of weak magic where the best that can be achieved is stuff like creating water, light, healing a couple points at a time, etc. And even those spells are a strain on the casters.

Play around with religion. I'm playing a PbP game where there is a massive war between gods going on, a whole pantheon vs. "the one true God". Or have two pantheons actively warring against each other. Or the gods have had enough of human shenanigans and are now making increasing demands on them. ("Nice temple. Build me a bigger one. And you will start sacrificing animals to me every month.")

How about a world where reincarnation isn't just a belief but has been proven and they can figure out who you were in a past life? A person can will their valuables and possessions to their next body. Grudges and hatreds occur not just between families or clans but individuals and can last across hundreds of years and generations.

Quote from: Old Geezer;810327Serious question:

Which is more important... "solid worldbuilding" or "fun game?"

That's not really where I'm stuck. It's less about consistency or detail (beyond a minimum), and more about evoking cool imagery.

In any case, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I just want to find a new "balance point" outside the same-old same-old.

Quote from: Doughdee222;810350How about a world with strange geology or other natural phenomena?

That's one way to go about it, but tracking down all the ripples from those changes (across society, economy, etc.) is more work than I'm looking for.

Quote from: Old Geezer;810327Serious question:

Which is more important... "solid worldbuilding" or "fun game?"

Quote from: The Butcher;810379That's not really where I'm stuck. It's less about consistency or detail (beyond a minimum), and more about evoking cool imagery.

In any case, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I just want to find a new "balance point" outside the same-old same-old.

Without the work of making it consistent, it might leave people puzzling over or complaining about the inconsistencies rather than enjoying the imagery.

Quote from: Doughdee222;810350How about a world with strange geology or other natural phenomena?

Quote from: The Butcher;810379That's one way to go about it, but tracking down all the ripples from those changes (across society, economy, etc.) is more work than I'm looking for.

I think there are only four ways to achieve cool imagery outside the same-old same-old that is either consistent with the consequences of its basic premises or so cool that nobody cares about consistency:

• Put in a lot of work.
• Be super talented/skillful/creative.
• Get really lucky.
• Get it from someone who has done one of these four things.

Choose three random elements from the game rules you're using--spells, skills, classes, player races, nonplayer races, magic items, game mechanics, whatever; choose a fairly short time limit; within that time limit describe why those three elements are the most important things in the world (at least at that moment in the world's history). This has worked for me at the adventure design level; maybe it could work for world building. :idunno:

At the world level, I usually steal stuff from several sources (#4), and hope it fits together and is obscure enough that nobody figures out where it came from (#3).

My campaigns tend to be either 'scotch taped' (cf. previous Savage Worlds game thread) or basically CBF quasi-European fantasy monoculture but there's always building-from-first-principles. Work out your geography and whatnot, imagine some primitive cultures that would appear in those locations a few thousand years back, guess how the environment would affect their mores and cultures, then think about how their technology has evolved (and the impact of that - maybe trying to mix up what developments appeared first compared to IRL society) and how they spread and adapt (expansion, war, etc). Throw in a few natural disasters and world shakeups every so often. Giving you cultures like 'desert nomads now adapted to seafaring, who abhor agriculture as the source of the great desert', or 'tropical islanders who spread to the icelands after their volcanic island sank below the waves'. Basically building a new world procedurally with the hope it'll evolve along different lines to Earth.

Quote from: rawma;810420Without the work of making it consistent, it might leave people puzzling over or complaining about the inconsistencies rather than enjoying the imagery.

Hence, "beyond a minimum." As in, a minimum of consistency. Just enough to suspend disbelief (and to get the ACKS economy sim to work out, but that's actually the easy part).

Quote from: rawma;810420At the world level, I usually steal stuff from several sources (#4), and hope it fits together and is obscure enough that nobody figures out where it came from (#3).

That's more or less what I had in mind and it's mostly the "fits together" part that I'm agonizing over.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;810524Basically building a new world procedurally with the hope it'll evolve along different lines to Earth.

Blimey, that's a shitload of work! I'd rather start off with the cool imagery and build backwards from there.

One possibility is to look at the world as seen by various cultures: their geographies and mythologies.

To "file off the serial numbers" can be accomplished by changing the very artifacts - names, clothing styles, etc. - that serve as intentional cues in mashups such as the Known World or the Old World.

Considering magic may help.

Quote from: Phillip;810570To "file off the serial numbers" can be accomplished by changing the very artifacts - names, clothing styles, etc. - that serve as intentional cues in mashups such as the Known World or the Old World.

Now that sounds intriguing. Care to elaborate?

This would actually be easier with more detail. What do you have so far?

Quote from: The Butcher;810320[...]I find Glorantha a great example because, decades of canon notwithstanding, the Dragon Pass situation is easy to grasp. There's the storm-worshipping, freedom-loving barbarians (that look and read a lot like Ancient Celts and/or Norsemen), and there's the highly-regimented empire (that feels like Imperial Rome and Gupta India had a theocratic, Kali-worshipping baby) and they're at war. [...]

This is the sort of feel I'm going after. When I do mash-ups I often feel they come across as too obvious (Arthurian Britain and Late Medieval Southern France! Medieval Italy and the Hanseatic League!), and I have difficulty visualizing what a civilization that combines wildly divergent cultures (Abbasid Caliphate and Song China! Aztecs and Imperial Rome!) might look like.

How does one go about breathing life into a fantasy world without making it a patchwork of explicit imitations of Earth history with fantasy stuff thrown in for good measure?

Sounds like you want to paint vividly the vaguely familiar in new forms.

Easiest way? Splice wholes into composite idea parts. Patchwork the ones you want together in a humanized (relatable) pattern. Reach for that new form by sinking that core relatable pattern with its vivid composite colors into yourself. Let it marinate.

Then, being in that head space, that lens, do the basics of life's logistics. Let your new alien lens and life's fomenting needs bubble forth necessary consistency. Let it create its own logic. Remember, 'would it make sense to them', and then commit to paper as much as you can.

It also helps to have been previously insane or have done hallucinogenics at some point in life. Being impassioned, inspired, or hopelessly in love does qualify.

Quote from: Opaopajr;811478Sounds like you want to paint vividly the vaguely familiar in new forms.

Ultimately you have to expand a description of your mash-up into something that feels real. I think it's best to start with a very short description: easier to have a handle on (especially when players explore some corner that you hadn't thought about and you go back to the underlying idea) and includes fewer assumptions from the sources. And then you have to expand it enough that the underlying simple idea isn't easily visible and it makes sense. And it comes down to  work, talent, luck or getting someone else to make it, as I suggested earlier.

QuoteIt also helps to have been previously insane or have done hallucinogenics at some point in life. Being impassioned, inspired, or hopelessly in love does qualify.

Or insanity or hallucinogens. Which of impassioned, inspired and hopelessly in love is insanity and which is drugs?

Quote from: rawma;811639Or insanity or hallucinogens. Which of impassioned, inspired and hopelessly in love is insanity and which is drugs?

Does it matter?

However, I do feel a walk-thru example for The Butcher would help. First we'd need his input of what he wants to work with. And of that, what will be familiar and what will be alien. A brainstorm of prioritized words will do.