Topic: Good advice for rules and rulings about what happens when a shooter misses its target, and there are other "targets" near and/or behind the missed target.
Also that a firearm's actual range often is longer than the one given in rules, for simplicity (the bullet continues until it loses enough speed to keep going forward, and may even hit bystanders a distance away in their feet...).

So, any advice?
Where to put the limit of the realism for the sake of fast play?

And please, do not refer to GM's ruling, because in that case, i will say that it is supposed as good advice for a new(to the system?) GM.

Advice is welcome, no matter what system it is for, but my preferred systems are the Storytelling systems and my own.

How funny, as this is actually important in In Nomine SJG. Granted the game does not ask you to take excruciating account, as it is deliberately cinematic, but there are rules that all damage upon things in the Symphony by not-Symphony-integrated beings will cause disturbance. This means your angel and demon NPCs, without a role explaining away why they are expected to shoot in that situation, will raise alarm bells with their stray bullets. It's also a conceit that supports why angels and demons favor melee because of greater control of collateral damage and discretion.

So every bullet that misses causes damage somewhere, and that makes noise to other angels and demons nearby. And given that it's essentially a celestial Cold War revealing your position and disguise is a big problem. That living things, and especially humans, cause even more alarm bells, I try to tabulate that, too.

For me I take what hits, subtract it from the gun burst, and roll their damage. If it is an area crowded with life, especially humans, then I guesstimate a percentage density of victims and splice the damage dice accordingly. Then rolling for the damage I assume an average human HP and any damage that goes over on a damage die is a mortally wounded guy.

But why do you need this? What setting conceit makes this background work important?

Quote from: Opaopajr;741465But why do you need this? What setting conceit makes this background work important?

A "modern" or similar setting, + if the characters is heroes, tries to live a somewhat normal life, or is supposedly secret agents or similar, + a dissatisfaction with the regular way of just assigning a range to a firearm, as if the bullet would drop dead at the limit of that range, or even as it hits or misses the intended target.

Mostly it would harmlessly lodge in something else like dirt, or wood, etc., however on the rare event it does hit something, you can also have it ricochet. Some ricochets also come straight back at the firer, another rare, but not unusual event.

Depending on  the Genre I would say 99-100 what damage it does makes no difference otherwise I would just maybe roll at the beginning of the scene/fight and if I get 100 then a stray bullet at some point does something that matters. otherwise where and what the damage is unimportant to the game. Liek I said it depends on the game/genre; Gritty games may warrant more stray rounds making an impact a super hero game almost never unless it is a plot complication etc. Also the system may have a built in complications rule to activate or use.

Just my thoughts

If you look at bullet trajectory graphs, you'll see that shortly after what is typically measured as "maximum effective range", the bullet drop rate is exponential.  That's why you don't see many rules out there about damage of bullets past effective range.

For example, a typical 5.56 round (same as .223, or typical M-4/M-16 round--standard assault rifle size), has a maximum effective range of 300 meters.  At least that's what it was when I was in the military.  And that's because the bullet drops the following (in inches):

200 meters: -2.7
300m: -10.7
400m: -25.7
500m: -50

So once you start getting to 400m, you have a lot of compensation for bullet drop to figure out, along with significant drop in velocity (and damage potential). If you want to keep things simple, don't even worry about any collateral damage past effective range because let's say you're aiming at a target 200m away and miss.  At 200m, you're aiming pretty much center mass at that target, so any potential target 200m beyond that (beyond max effective range), the bullet would hit 23 inches lower than what your sight picture is.  But the biggest reason why you shouldn't even worry about it is because have you ever looked at a man sized target at 300m away?  it's very small in your sites; your front site post obscures the entire target.  So when you factor in bullet drop, adjustment to bullet flight path for wind, tiny sight picture, etc, the odds of hitting that target on accident are astronomical.  

TLDR: don't worry about accidental bullet damage past maximum effective range.

Quote from: dragoner;741488Some ricochets also come straight back at the firer, another rare, but not unusual event.

When has this ever happened?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741580If you look at bullet trajectory graphs, you'll see that shortly after what is typically measured as "maximum effective range", the bullet drop rate is exponential.  That's why you don't see many rules out there about damage of bullets past effective range.

For example, a typical 5.56 round (same as .223, or typical M-4/M-16 round--standard assault rifle size), has a maximum effective range of 300 meters.  At least that's what it was when I was in the military.  And that's because the bullet drops the following (in inches):

200 meters: -2.7
300m: -10.7
400m: -25.7
500m: -50

So once you start getting to 400m, you have a lot of compensation for bullet drop to figure out, along with significant drop in velocity (and damage potential). If you want to keep things simple, don't even worry about any collateral damage past effective range because let's say you're aiming at a target 200m away and miss.  At 200m, you're aiming pretty much center mass at that target, so any potential target 200m beyond that (beyond max effective range), the bullet would hit 23 inches lower than what your sight picture is.  But the biggest reason why you shouldn't even worry about it is because have you ever looked at a man sized target at 300m away?  it's very small in your sites; your front site post obscures the entire target.  So when you factor in bullet drop, adjustment to bullet flight path for wind, tiny sight picture, etc, the odds of hitting that target on accident are astronomical.  

TLDR: don't worry about accidental bullet damage past maximum effective range.

Good post.

To the OP remember also that this example was from a fairly decent velocity rifle round. Damage past effective range with a .45 auto pistol round would be even worse.

Quote from: Dodger;741583When has this ever happened?

Happened to me  That's why shooters wear eye protection.  Granted, getting hit with a richochet is NOTHING like getting hit by a bullet directly

Quote from: Exploderwizard;741586Good post.

No it wasn't, and there are sad number of dead people who would object to it. He placed way too much focus upon "range conditions" (i.e. things like consistently level ground) and in real life people have been killed way beyond "effective range".

He should read his Hatcher. Or maybe even the newspapers.


But to answer the question in the original OP- do you want a realistic answer or a game answer? They are two different things, from a game design PoV such a mechanic is intended to discourage players from taking certain shots and thus the chance is unrealistically high and simple.

A realistic answer would discourage the serious role-player, but would be too low to discourage others (the risk will be worth it) and be much more complex.

Quote from: Dodger;741583When has this ever happened?

In the so called perfect case, angle of deflection equals angle of incidence- if if you hit something dead on, it comes right back at you.

In Cowboy Action shooting, the targets are at very short range and are made of flat steel. That's about as perfect as it gets in the real world and I'm always getting stuff coming back in my face.

I've also experienced it on normal ranges, but in that case it's almost always bits of the jacket.

It doesn't really matter however as it just bits and pieces and all the significant energy was burned on the target and on the bullet itself as it was torn apart. Might hurt if I got hit in the eye, thus one always wears shooting glasses.

Never had it happen off a shooting range. But I don't shoot around a lot of rocks or steel.

Quote from: gleichman;741595It doesn't really matter however as it just bits and pieces and all the significant energy was burned on the target and on the bullet itself as it was torn apart.

Okay, I would describe this as shrapnel or fragmentation. To my mind, a ricochet is when an intact round deflects off something and hits an unintended target with enough impact to cause damage.

Quote from: Dodger;741583When has this ever happened?

Quite a bit; basic physics really, as the force that the bullet is exerting is equal to the force being exerted on the bullet.

50 cal ricochet-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

IIRC a deputy sheriff shot himself in the eye in Mendocino, California; and a friend of mine shot himself in the leg, which was fun /sarcasm to carry him back.

Quote from: gleichman;741593No it wasn't, and there are sad number of dead people who would object to it. He placed way too much focus upon "range conditions" (i.e. things like consistently level ground) and in real life people have been killed way beyond "effective range".

He should read his Hatcher. Or maybe even the newspapers.
.

Once again missing the forest through the tree, eh gleichman?  So many things wrong about your post.  Where to start..

how about assuming I was talking about range conditions, when I actually was saying the opposite; that in range conditions the chances of hitting a secondary target on accident beyond max effective range are incredibly remote, so when you factor in everything else (like not being on a range), the odds become astronimical.

or how about the fact that you failed to realize that the people who have been killed beyond max effective range were aimed at intentionally, and the OP is clearly talking about hitting someone beyond the target you were aiming at on accident.

or how about I never said it can't ever happen (someone accidentaly suffering damage beyond max effective range), but that the odds are so remote it's not worth bothering about in an RPG.  Now, I will admit I'll fully retract that statement if you can show data that shows the rate of someone accidentally getting shot beyond the maximum effective range of the weapon when the shooter was aiming at another target is anything other than extremely remote.  

I have some figures though.  One of those is that in Vietnam, roughly 50,000 rounds were fired for every person killed.  And most of those rounds were fired intentionally at a target, and not someone who was accidentally killed at beyond effective range.

No, you're totally missing the point and the context of the conversation yet again.  Big surprise.

Quote from: Dodger;741597Okay, I would describe this as shrapnel or fragmentation. To my mind, a ricochet is when an intact round deflects off something and hits an unintended target with enough impact to cause damage.

Yes, most "richochets" people talk about are actually called splatter.  I've never been hit by a true richochet, but I have been hit with splatter a few times.  And splatter is largely harmless, resulting in minor injury unless you happen to get it in your eye or something.  Still hurts and can cause injury, but it's nothing like getting hit with an actual bullet.

In order for true richochets to happen, conditions have to be pretty specific.