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Author Topic: What features would a good introductory RPG have?  (Read 3935 times)

Age of Fable

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2008, 01:00:38 PM »
Quote from: madunkieg
But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that we're going about it backwards. Right now we're trying to get people to play our games. What we should be doing is asking what do non-gamers want, and only after that, try to figure out how to redesign rpgs to match that.


How could that be done?
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

madunkieg

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2008, 07:59:18 PM »
Let me introduce the 2 cardinal rules of making something for non-gamers:

1. What you like and want doesn't matter.

2. What they like and want does.

Hopefully there will be a connection between what you like and what they like, but when in doubt, they win.


Now, to break down the process:

1. Listen to non-gamers: listen to what they do for entertainment, listen to their complaints about entertainment (and not just, "it sucked" complaints, look for complaints about scheduling, organization, travel, and anything else peripheral to the entertainment experience). Look for a spot where a roleplaying game might be able to do something better than another medium. Include some non-storytelling mediums (e.g. social networking sites, fashion, etc.).

2. Do some market research: What sorts of stories do they watch, read, listen to and play? What genres? What themes? What brands (if you're going that route)? Where do they look for advertising about entertainment? This may involve checking statistics (tv ratings, book sales, etc.), doing focus groups, and all that jazz.

3. Make a roleplaying game that matches the stories they like and fits the constraints (and freedoms) of their lives.

4. Playtest with non-gamers who are your target audience. Let's face it. We gamers often try to steer rpgs towards what we're familiar with. We can check the math pretty well, but we're not the target audience. And "non-gamers" are not a target audience. You need to be more specific than that.

This is all pretty general, basic business practice, and it glosses over all the places where you can go wrong in the details. How to manage those details fills books, so do some reading, and talking to successful businesspeople often helps, too.
Humans should have been assigned a wisdom penalty.

HinterWelt

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »
Quote from: madunkieg
Let me introduce the 2 cardinal rules of making something for non-gamers:

1. What you like and want doesn't matter.

2. What they like and want does.


Hate to break this to you but that is the rules for publishing period. At least if you want to sell it.

Bill
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Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
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Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 04:56:56 PM »
Quote from: Age of Fable
You could call it "Dungeons that Don't Drag On" :haw:


Bwahahaha :haw:

I think you could do 1 hour. :)

Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 05:03:44 PM »
Here's another bit of advice:  Math is BAD.  BAD bad BAD.

d20 +2 +3 +1 +3... or was that +2... better look it up...  what was the target number?  17?  So what did you roll?  No, you added it up wrong.  Did you make it?  Okay, roll for damage now...

Blah. :-P

madunkieg

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 07:00:58 PM »
Quote from: Stuart
Here's another bit of advice:  Math is BAD.  BAD bad BAD.

d20 +2 +3 +1 +3... or was that +2... better look it up...  what was the target number?  17?  So what did you roll?  No, you added it up wrong.  Did you make it?  Okay, roll for damage now...


Is it really the math that's the problem here, or is it having to keep track of so many modifiers?
Humans should have been assigned a wisdom penalty.

Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2008, 09:25:53 PM »
Quote from: madunkieg
Is it really the math that's the problem here, or is it having to keep track of so many modifiers?


Both.  Most boardgames and card games have much less math in them.  Even with math, ading one or two to single digit numbers is fine for most people -- but when you get into adding and subtracting double-digit numbers it slows things down.  Doing a chain of adding or subtracting single digit numbers likewise slows things down.

Then you get to Rolling for damage and adding all the bonuses, and then recording hit point loss "You had 83 hp and the Ogre did 17 damage..." and it's more math.

Obviously it's not a problem for any of us, but it's different from most other games and a bit off-putting to some people.  For a lot of people ANY math, even "easy" math is at odds with "Fun".  It's work, and if you keep asking them to do it, they'll start thinking about doing something else.

Age of Fable

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2008, 05:50:41 AM »
What could replace game elements that currently rely on maths?
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

madunkieg

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2008, 08:33:48 AM »
As Stuart says, boardgames rule this aspect of gaming, and the most basic ways they do it is by simply cutting down on the number of modifiers and by cutting down on the size of numbers. One other thing they do is provide items that list the modifiers that are used (cards that say, "roll an extra die" and such), instead of having to keep a list of 50 possible modifiers in your head.

But boardgames also get very inventive. Boards allow spatial metaphors, like the variable size of buildings in Elaslund, or having different sections of board like in Talisman.

Cardgames play some fun tricks, too. Brawl, from Cheapass Games, penalizes some decks by making them more complex than others. Citadels ties initiative to chosen special actions (if you think of the roles as special actions), and going first is a sort of modifier.

It might not be a bad idea to head over to boardgamegeek and start looking through what they talk about. Better yet, get together with some friends and have some fun playing a few boardgames and cardgames.
Humans should have been assigned a wisdom penalty.

Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2008, 09:46:58 AM »
Quote from: madunkieg
It might not be a bad idea to head over to boardgamegeek and start looking through what they talk about. Better yet, get together with some friends and have some fun playing a few boardgames and cardgames.


Absolutely!  It's actually a bit surprising that you see less RPGs influenced by modern boardgames than you'd expect.

For new players (an introductory RPG) they'll care a lot less about having all sorts of different modifiers and detail / crunch to the rule system.  They'll prefer a game that moves quickly.

Keep in mind -- computers can do math much faster than people.  Adding lots of math to a game is turning it into something that would be better done by a computer.  Keep the focus on what computer games *don't* do well.  Think of the actual experience for the players sitting at the table rather than just thinking about the simulation of the game world you're trying to model.

I'll be able to share my game mechanics with you all very soon.  They might not hit the spot for people looking for lots of "crunch" but for people who want fast and light (but still having some depth) I think you'll like them. :)

Age of Fable

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2008, 07:46:41 AM »
Here's another question: is it true that Vampire got a lot of new people into role-playing?

It's quite different to the other systems I can think of that definitely did, for example in its setting (including the fact that it emphasises the details of a particular, original setting) and in the apparent assumption that you won't be running structured, 'dungeon' style adventures with it (including not having a sample adventure).
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

Age of Fable

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2008, 07:48:06 AM »
Quote from: Stuart
Absolutely!  It's actually a bit surprising that you see less RPGs influenced by modern boardgames than you'd expect.


Apparently the latest(?) game in the Catan series is more RPG-like, in the sense that you control an individual character and go forth into the wilderness fighting wolves and so on.
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2008, 08:26:08 AM »
There's actually a lot of boardgames that have RPG like elements now.

Board Game Geek has an entire category for Role Playing

HinterWelt

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2008, 10:17:34 AM »
Quote from: Age of Fable
Here's another question: is it true that Vampire got a lot of new people into role-playing?

It's quite different to the other systems I can think of that definitely did, for example in its setting (including the fact that it emphasises the details of a particular, original setting) and in the apparent assumption that you won't be running structured, 'dungeon' style adventures with it (including not having a sample adventure).

See I don't think the system was all the different. It was the setting that did it. I think this is a mistake many make when they talk about intro games, that system some how makes the game intro. Setting is, IMHO, the key factor. I say this having introduced a lot of people to RPGs through oWOD.

System wise, I modified oWOD to be more combat friendly. Folks liked this and it drew more in.

Bill
The RPG Haven - Talking about RPGs
My Site
Oh...the HinterBlog
Lord Protector of the Cult of Clash was Right
When you look around you have to wonder,
Do you play to win or are you just a bad loser?

Blackleaf

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What features would a good introductory RPG have?
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2008, 10:23:03 AM »
I think Vampire was such a hit because the Anne Rice novels, Goth, and Vampires were popular at the time.  The dress-up and go out to the clubs element of the Live Action play shouldn't be overlooked either.