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Hypothesis

Started by mythusmage, September 15, 2006, 12:00:43 AM

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Gabriel

Quote from: obrynOK, others have already pointed out that (2) does not necessarily follow from (1).  (2) is a conclusion all its own which would require a logical argument.

-O

Perhaps what the original poster meant was:

1. A roleplaying game is an organized activity in which the participants play disparate imaginary characters in an imaginary world.

2. Because of the disparity of the characters above, no RPG has ever been balanced, nor will any RPG ever be balanced.

Which is a thesis I don't believe is a universal truth.

flyingmice

Quote from: GabrielBecause better play leads to increased effectiveness in game.  I can't think of ANY experience system which doesn't create this effect.  Players are always implicitly in competition because of this kind of structure.

If a game is about combat, then the players should generally start off with a more or less equal ability to participate and influence combat.  The idea is that the game should give everyone an equal chance to participate at the start, so it is vitally important there be an initial balance.  After that, better play will ultimately be rewarded.

What about games without an experience system?

-mice
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John Morrow

Quote from: GabrielBecause better play leads to increased effectiveness in game.  I can't think of ANY experience system which doesn't create this effect.  Players are always implicitly in competition because of this kind of structure.

I disagree with the idea that the purpose of balance is solely or primarily to balance the players' characters against each other.  I think that's a goal.  I think it's also to make it easier for the GM to provide appropriate challenges that are neither too easy nor too hard and also to make sure that everyone's character can play a significant role in dealing with the challege.  Not so much that the characters are competing for attention or screen time but that the players can all do something to contribute to the team effort.
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Mcrow

I think the best use of balance in RPGs is to make sure that each player has equal (or as close to it as possible) chance to shine, in there area of focus.

So you don't the do it all character that dominates play just because the rules dictate it.

It's not so much about keeping characters from becoming powerful but goving players equal chance to contribute.

However, the system can only influence balance. In the end much of the "balance" of play is regulated by the GM.

mythusmage

Balance

An RPG is not a traditional game. There is no competition, there are no victory conditions. It is assumed that the player will cooperate in attaining any goals, thus a session is marked by cooperation. In effect, the players have mutual goals and not competitive goals.

There can be situations where this may not be the case, but insofar as there is no competition designed into the game it cannot be a traditional game.
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mythusmage

In this post I'll be expanding on the first statement in the hypothesis. This should, I hope, clarify matters for the reader.

I. A roleplaying game is an organized activity in which the participants play imaginary characters in an imaginary world.

---A. "Organized Activity" means that the RPG has a set of rules which serve to describe how things work in the imaginary world, and govern what is possible in that world.

---B. "Imaginary Characters" means that the players assume the role of make believe people living in a make believe world. People who have talents and abilities, and who vary in those talents and abilities as people do in real life.

---C. "Imaginary World" means that the action during a game session occurs in a make-believe reality where much is like the real world, and much is different. It also means that the immediate environment can, and will, pose challenges of varying degrees of difficult. And that those challenges will not always be commisserate with a person's ability.

---D. The Player is therefor engaged in living an imaginary life, with all the inequities, challenges, needs, and dreams of such a live. With limitations and opportunities established by that world and the way it works.
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mythusmage

Quote from: droogCould you define 'adventure'?

A series of uncomfortable and, very likely, hazardous events happening to some poor bastard a long, long way away. :)
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TonyLB

Quote from: mythusmageA series of uncomfortable and, very likely, hazardous events happening to some poor bastard a long, long way away. :)
So, bare minimum (if we ignore the "very likely" as something that might not happen, and abstract "long, long way away" to mean "fictional") you're saying "A piece of fiction which includes adversity"?  i.e.  "A story"?

Is a story, set in a local, totally mundane high school, of how Kelly works up the nerve to ask Joe out to the homecoming dance an Adventure?
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Caesar Slaad

Quote from: mythusmageBalance

An RPG is not a traditional game. There is no competition, there are no victory conditions. It is assumed that the player will cooperate in attaining any goals, thus a session is marked by cooperation. In effect, the players have mutual goals and not competitive goals.

There can be situations where this may not be the case, but insofar as there is no competition designed into the game it cannot be a traditional game.

I think the error in thought here is that the only role that balance plays is in making competition interesting. That is, IME, incorrect.

I've wanted to start a thread on this, but I'm not quite ready to. A breif summary of why I think you off the mark here:

There are other reasons to balance characters:
1) Balancing player contribution / "spotlight time". If players lack the capability to contribute to the game in comparison to their peers, their involvement and appreciation of the game tends to diminish. If players have vastly different levels of ability to influence the setting, sometimes the GM can compensate, but it consumes time and effort and is sometimes untenable.
2) Making acceptable challenges for the group as a whole. If characters have divergant power levels in activities which the entire group is expects to participate (this usually means combat, but could also mean social situations), characters with more limited capabilities could actually be slain when (for example) the weak character engages the enemy intended for the strong character in combat.
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Gabriel

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat about games without an experience system?

-mice

In any game there will be a reward system.  Characters will be rewarded with better equipment, more influence, greater freedom to do things of greater scope, etc.  The better players will always achieve these awards more quickly than the lesser players, and the players can and will most definitely compete to achieve these rewards.

mythusmage

Heads Up

I'm going to be re-writing the hypothesis. Narrowing it down to a basic one sentence thesis, with supporting statements. It'll work better that way.

The new hypothesis will start a new thread. My thanks to all who responded and gave their feedback, advice, and input in this one. Since this thread has performed it's task, I ask that the admins close it so people can focus on other threads in this forum.
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