Quote from: Kaelik;577545I already told you were those rules are. It's not my fault you don't own a 3.5 DMG and can't look them up.

Which part of the rules you cited claim an 'infinite supply'?  Where in those paragraphs are the 'constant demand' sections?

Quote from: Fiasco;577529Can't win either way it looks. Either the party is meta gaming because they all have dark vision to foil the devil or they are meta gaming by having a standard adventuring trick like a bag full of glowing stones (which are apparently useless than anything except devils). Neat.

First off, Spike's party did have Darkvision.  That might have helped against the Bone Devil if there hadn't been multiple tunnels with line of sight beyond 60'.  The Bone Devil could stand 150' away, see the party, target them with different effects, and the party still couldn't see the Bone Devil.  

Secondly, putting lights all over the dungeon might have been a good tactic.  I was actually the first one to suggest it (after the exercise was over).  That said, it may only have had limited benefit if the party weren't willing to split up (with the attendant problems).  The Bone Devil could invisibly teleport to each light after it was placed, and move it to another spot that wouldn't benefit the party.  For example, the Bone Devil could have placed it in the upper left most room on the map Fectin provided that was defended by a stout door and ten walls of ice.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577532This is where your OCD truly trips you up.  If the rules state something that is clearly impossible, like everything is available in infinite quantities and supply is exactly the same everywhere, the rules need to be ignored.

I don't think Kaelik indicated that infinite quantities were available everywhere - actually he indicated that there were limits based on the size and wealth of a given community.  But if one considers the Infinite Layers of the Abyss that are defined as spatially infinite, and possibly home to an infinte number of intelligent occupants, including, for example, fiendish elves; assuming that 1/100,000,000 of 1% of such creatures could create the item; since there are an infinite number of them, an infinite number of those items would be created.

If you think the D&D multi-verse is stupid, that's fine.  But I don't think that trying to derive the logical results of the world is stupid.  So if you don't like infinite items, probably the first thing you should do is get rid of 'infinite planes'.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577532Assuming those rules even exist in the first place.  I think a request was made for you to point out where it says 'supply is infinite' and 'demand is the same everywhere for everything'.  I assume this stems from your bizarro world claim that 'everyone wants a Ferarri'.

I was thinking about responding to this, but I decided against it.  But since you're bringing it up again, I will.

Would you like a Ferrari if it were free?  

I bet you would.  That means you're part of the demand for Ferraris.  

You see, Demand can be graphed as the number of units DESIRED at a given cost.  So, at the price of FREE, everyone wants at least one Ferrari.  Personally, I'd take 10.  Now, at the price of $100, most people would still probably want at least one.  I would.  I'd probably buy 5, but I wouldn't want as many as if they were free because I can't drive that many.  

Now, it costs more to produce a Ferrari than $100, so there is also a supply graph.  At $0 per unit, the supply of Ferraris is 0.  At $100 per unit, the supply of Ferraris is 0.  At a price of $5,000,000, the Ferrari company would probably expand their capability and produce more than the roughly 7,000 they sold in 2011.  But there aren't many people willing to spend that much for a car.  Because at that price, you could buy a Ford Focus or something - it may not be as nice, but it's a valid substitute for getting you to and from work.  

So, there's roughly 7,000 people willing to spend roughly $1 million for a Ferrari each year.  So that's where the Supply and Demand Graphs intersect.  But everyone who would be willing to purchase a Ferrari at SOME price is part of the Demand for Ferraris.

Now, let's compare that to a piece of steaming shit fresh from my bowels.  If I offer that to you at a price of 'free', you'd probably say no.  Most people would.  The demand for my shit is roughly zero, even at a price of zero.  That means 'there is no demand'.  Compare and contrast that with your desire for a free Ferrari.  

But if you're still confused, please feel free to ask the Econ 101 teacher at your local community college.  I'm sure they'll be pleased to set you straight.  Supply and Demand is the second thing you learn in Econ 101 - right after Production Possibility Curves.  But everyone forgets that they learn that first.

Quote from: beejazz;577522Earlier it sounded like victory was conditional on a party not prepared for a bone devil

Actually, no.  Conditional was the argument everyone else made.  The Denner contention was a Bone Devil was 100% TPK rate against a Core 10th level party.  No conditions, no exceptions, it was mathematically provable and an axiom of the universe, and if you thought otherwise, then lets do a 1000 page post-counterpost smoke and mirrors job of white-room theorywank to ram our viewpoint through by sheer exhaustion of our enemies.

The fact that Kaelik apparently is afraid to redo the Dome because his highly conditional, perfect ambush setup seems to indeed be the only way the Bone Devil can win, proves the "Conditional" side to be correct.

But of course anyone here not a Denner already knew that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;577635Actually, no.  Conditional was the argument everyone else made.  The Denner contention was a Bone Devil was 100% TPK rate against a Core 10th level party.  No conditions, no exceptions, it was mathematically provable and an axiom of the universe, and if you thought otherwise, then lets do a 1000 page post-counterpost smoke and mirrors job of white-room theorywank to ram our viewpoint through by sheer exhaustion of our enemies.

The fact that Kaelik apparently is afraid to redo the Dome because his highly conditional, perfect ambush setup seems to indeed be the only way the Bone Devil can win, proves the "Conditional" side to be correct.

But of course anyone here not a Denner already knew that.

Hey dumb shit. It is conditional on playing by the book, which is why I only brought it up in the "by the book gaming" thread.

I never said it wasn't conditional. Of course it is conditioned on not cheating. So every time you say, "If you just let us cheat, we can beat the Bone Devil." you are being a dumb lying sack of shit.

Stop being a dumb lying sack of shit and explain how the party can beat a Bone Devil conditioned on playing by the book.

Kaelik, you really ought to build up your insult repertoire.

Quote from: Kaelik;577647Stop being a dumb lying sack of shit and explain how the party can beat a Bone Devil conditioned on playing by the book.

So, to clarify: is the bone devil scenario not also conditional on

1) The party not being made to kill bone devils?
2) The party not being prepared/equipped specifically for bone devils?

You only mentioned by the book in that last post. Is there a reason to call for a different monster if nothing is conditional based on 1) and 2)?

Anyway, my point more or less still stands that testing ambush tactics by telling the party who is to be ambushed that they will be ambushed remains counter intuitive.

Get a room. Play a real game. Bring examples from play to support arguments in the future. We're putting the cart before the horse here otherwise.

Quote from: beejazz;577654So, to clarify: is the bone devil scenario not also conditional on

1) The party not being made to kill bone devils?
2) The party not being prepared/equipped specifically for bone devils?

Yes.  The party is expected to be able to take on 4 encounters each day of that difficulty.  So unless they all happen to be Bone Devils, any one of the four that is NOT a Bone Devil will result in a TPK if played intelligently.  

Kaelik presented a short list of monsters that would be able to TPK a core-only party.  The Bone Devil is one such monster.  

Spike knew his party was going to be facing a Bone Devil.  He didn't quit because Kaelik didn't start a melee.  He quit when he realized he didn't have any preventive measures to keep Kaelik's Bone Devil from separating and/or wearing down the party's resources before resorting to a melee encounter.

That is, Spike realized he couldn't counter an intelligently played opponent that has unlimited daily resources, superior mobility, superior intelligence gathering (in this case See in Darkness) with his party that has limited resources.  

So far the best suggestion for Spike's party (if he wanted to continue the scenario) is 'hold hands'.  

If you aren't admitting that is stupid, I don't know that there's any hope for you.  If you are admitting that holding hands while walking through the dungeon is stupid, you should also admit that Kaelik was right - this 'typical party' didn't have a good defense against an intelligently played opponent.  If the Bone Devil had waded into melee the moment the party walked in, the party probably would have done alright - but then the monster wouldn't be acting intelligently - he'd be failing to use his resources effectively.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;577660Yes.  The party is expected to be able to take on 4 encounters each day of that difficulty.  So unless they all happen to be Bone Devils, any one of the four that is NOT a Bone Devil will result in a TPK if played intelligently.  

It has been a loooooooooong time since I've bothered with the encounter guidelines. Was it 3e that suggested mixed difficulties and did 3.5 remove it in favor of everything being equal in CR?

QuoteSpike knew his party was going to be facing a Bone Devil.  He didn't quit because Kaelik didn't start a melee.  He quit when he realized he didn't have any preventive measures to keep Kaelik's Bone Devil from separating and/or wearing down the party's resources before resorting to a melee encounter.

Attributing motive there, unless he said so himself. He could very well have just been bored. Hell, given that we can't actually seen him he could have been kidnapped and replaced. Best not to go down that route. Unless he contradicts himself he quit for whatever reason he said he quit for.

QuoteSo far the best suggestion for Spike's party (if he wanted to continue the scenario) is 'hold hands'.  

I wouldn't say the best 'Siters can think of is the best there is necessarily.

Unrelated question: what game has a GM who gives no quarter and a party of "standard" characters like you described? Whether it would happen in-game aside, the metagame of this argument is kind of silly. I mean... who plays like that?

I don't.  

Kaelik posited that certain monsters, if played intelligently, would result in a TPK.  

Since we know these monsters are used, and don't always result in a TPK, we're forced to conclude that DMs don't usually play them intelligently.  

DMs put the game on 'EZ Mode' or something to challenge the party without overwhelming them, even if they easily could (just following the rules).  

The sounding board here seems to indicate that if they were the DM they'd just have the Bone Devil jump out in a room and take on the party.  That's probably how the monster is supposed to be used, and probably how the CR was calculated - because if you do that, the party probably will win.  That's why I'm confused as to why there are some people that haven't given Kaelik his victory.  You don't have to like him personally to admit that he was right.  

It's really no more controversial to admit that an intelligently played opponent from 'team monster' can outplay a party than to admit that a GM can pull a 'grudge monster' out and TPK the party at any time either.  Monsters have abilities that PCs don't; if those abilities are better than what PCs can do, it stands to reason that the monsters can usually win - if they play to their strengths.

Quote from: Kaelik;577647Hey dumb shit. It is conditional on playing by the book, which is why I only brought it up in the "by the book gaming" thread.

I never said it wasn't conditional. Of course it is conditioned on not cheating. So every time you say, "If you just let us cheat, we can beat the Bone Devil." you are being a dumb lying sack of shit.

Stop being a dumb lying sack of shit and explain how the party can beat a Bone Devil conditioned on playing by the book.

So if you are only needing RAW why all your panty twisting about any hint of the party being optimized for Bone Devils. I recall you complaining that Spike had a holy weapon in his core party because it smacked of meta gaming (as opposed to many people just liking the coolness of holy weapons irrespective of whether they are an optimal choice).

I can totally see you as one of those assholes at the game table (assuming you ever even attend one) who berates a fellow player for taking the 'wrong' feat. If a player took something like toughness you would probably have a shit haemorhage.

Honestly you alternate between overwheening arrogance and little girl anxiety in your posts.

Invisibility: Have a halfling paladin with a riding dog? A druid with a wolf animal companion? Did you just buy a dog for the hell of it? Congratulations, they smell brimstone and the caster has been alerted to the presence of a hidden foe. If you've got no animal with scent, why has no one maxed the crap out of listen in a tenth level party where the DM uses ambush tactics? If you have true seeing, see invisibility, darkvision, or whatever else, you can fuck with the ambush tactics.

Light sources can be seen from farther away than they shed light, but in the case of stones you can stick 'em in a sling and shoot 'em. If you weren't already being watched you remain hidden. If you were and you're in a sufficiently short corridor you might illuminate the other party (it's 50/50 on a given shot and while the party is together they can manage two). Yes the bone devil can be invisible indefinitely, but see above.

Ice walls I'll need to check up on. Should be some way to counter them when you encounter them for at least one party member. Yes the bone devil can theoretically use them forever while the counter may be limited per day, but I'm sure I can think of something for this later. It's the more valid portion of the bone devil argument really.

And then there's the actual stats and whether a bone devil can handle this or that party member one on one. I wasn't there for that part of the argument so feel free to refresh me on that one.

You know what why dosen't everyone put their money where their mouth is. This is a set of monsters

Aboleth
Greater Earth Elemental
Grey Slaad
Juvinile Red Dragon
Vrock
Zelekut

all of these monsters can TPK parties who come in unprepared if somone like me is running them.

Disagree. then stat up some 10th level characters and back up your points with actual gameplay.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577746You know what why dosen't everyone put their money where their mouth is. This is a set of monsters

Aboleth
Greater Earth Elemental
Grey Slaad
Juvinile Red Dragon
Vrock
Zelekut

all of these monsters can TPK parties who come in unprepared if somone like me is running them.

Disagree. then stat up some 10th level characters and back up your points with actual gameplay.

 
I dont think anyone disagrees these monsters CAN tpk a party or that they likely WILL if the GM is trying to kill the party.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;577748I dont think anyone disagrees these monsters CAN tpk a party or that they likely WILL if the GM is trying to kill the party.

People are still debating with sempai but won't back up their points in the thunderdome. I figured that maybe someone people are less worried about badgering deadDM would be better.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577746Then stat up some 10th level characters and back up your points with actual gameplay.

You are under the delusion that white-room scenarios akin to the "thunderdomes" on this board equate "actual game play".

It just isn't the case. Sorry.