Quote from: One Horse Town;574752If it's contained to the thread it crops up, it's fine and dandy. Keep taking it to unrelated threads and you'll get a reputation as a stalker - signatures naturally appear in every thread you post to.

Now, listen up you primitive screwheads - yes, that's you Den guys.

You came here to start this party. No-one went to your little rent-an-OCD forum to bait you. You came here to tell us knuckledraggers we are wrongheaded.

I think it's a bit rich to go round someones house, tell them the furniture is shit and then throw a tantrum when they tell you to shut the fuck up.

Clear enough?

I do think it's questionable that you decided to move this thread only after Spike lost.  I'd be surprised that a moderator would default to telling people to 'shut the fuck up', but it's been apparent that theRPGsite has a 'company line' that people are rewarded for towing.  

In fairness, at least they don't toss around the 'ban hammer' against people they don't like.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574822I do think it's questionable that you decided to move this thread only after Spike lost.  I'd be surprised that a moderator would default to telling people to 'shut the fuck up', but it's been apparent that theRPGsite has a 'company line' that people are rewarded for towing.  

In fairness, at least they don't toss around the 'ban hammer' against people they don't like.

Oh, for fuck sake. I moved it because it should be here, you stupid cunt.

I haven't been here for a while, haven't really looked at the threads, then when i did, they seemed to be shit-holes stinking up the main forum with play-by-post or actual play.

Now shut the fuck up and continue posting to your shitty threads.

Fucking hell.

Quote from: gleichman;574819We should be fair here, Sacrosanct did indeed call out Declan MacManus.

I was surprised.

Noted.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574804that a Denner (gasp) was right (double gasp) about his assertion, and was willing to prove it in hostile territory.)

He was willing to prove it in hostile territory.  Kudos.
Spike ragequitting, however, does not prove his assertion correct.

If I claim I've found a new Mersenne Prime, you disagree, and we go to the Maths to prove it, you realize you hate Math and drop out, guess what that doesn't do?  It doesn't prove I've found a new Mersenne Prime.

No matter how many times you try to slide that in there, it won't stick.  Kaelik won...and proved nothing because it was a TKO not a TPK.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574868No matter how many times you try to slide that in there, it won't stick.  Kaelik won...and proved nothing because it was a TKO not a TPK.

So to be clear, if MGuy takes all but one HP of damage in his fight, uses all his spells, and then quits. Panzer doesn't win because it will not have been proved?

Your strange version of defending breakdowns is shitty. It is an incentive for people to quit as soon as they can see that they will lose so that it can be declared "inconclusive" instead of settled.

How about if instead you explain how they party was going to beat the Bone Devil in any way? Or take up the challenge yourself.

They basically had three choices:

1) Dimension Door back outside and run away to never come back. Losing.

2) To attempt to pass the walls (more than one or two, the number of DDs he had) in some manner in order to continue exploring/engage the Bone Devil. I can think of one way they could try to do that without taking damage, but it would be extremely slow, and incredibly ineffective.

3) Attempt to prepare new spells to deal with the situation.

Now, obviously the Bone Devil knows how to deal with this. He knows to never leave people alone for an hour. So every hour he teleports in, creates a Major Image of something (probably not a Bone Devil) and then tricks the party into wasting attacks on it, and disturbing any prayer/meditation.

Now, if they figure out that it's an illusion, he teleports out and teleports back in later to screw with them again with a different illusion.

If they ever ignore the Illusion, he starts creating a Major Image of himself attacking them, and if they ignore that, then he just attacks them himself, and they will ignore that until after he's punched the Wizard in the face, and then he teleports out, having disturbed preparation.

Now, you advocated that people would just know that Bone Devils have Major Image. But that would be metagaming, how was the party supposed to know that it was facing a Bone Devil? Hell, since no one had even a single rank in Knowledge (Planes) and this was "by the book" how where they going to know that Bone Devils have Major Image? It's a DC 20 check to know "one bit of useful information" No guarantee that the one bit is going to be Major Image, and you basically need Wall of Ice to be your one bit in order to even deduce the Bone Devil before he attacks you. Much less are you going to get the DC 45 check to know a whole 5 things, like AC/Saves/Attack routine, or all five SLAs that are not Major Image.

Now, a lot of your tactics basically rely on knowing the capabilities of the Bone Devil, and metagaming. Like someone locks you in a corridor with Wall of Ice.

Your solution is to all hold hands and stand together, and under no circumstances break the wall down.

That's a great strategy against a Bone Devil, but that's a terrible strategy against an invisible Wizard who locked you in in order to cast Cloudkill next round. Or against an Ice Devil who is going to use Cone of Cold.

And the real kicker is that time works against you. Remember that Stoneskin that Spike thought was going to protect his Wizard from an Ambush with it's not even four hour duration? Hope you don't stay there for four hours. Remember that Darkvision and Mage Armor that last 10 hours? Well if you keep getting interrupted from preparing new spells, those wear off, then you are blind as well. That sucks. And sure, they could light a torch, if they brought any, or they could cast light, until that wears off too.

But each day the Bone Devil gets a chance to summon an exact copy of itself, which means the more days you stay trapped in there, the more times you have to fight a real Bone Devil to the death, and for winning, you get the reward of... not dying yet.

The only way Spikes party doesn't die, is if they use one of their two Dimension Doors to teleport outside, and then either start over, or never come back. The first wall of ice was to bait out any teleportation. So was the second. Once the Bone Devil was sure that he had used up all their teleportation, then he would have known they were trapped, and just kept them up every hour, tried to summon another Bone Devil, used Major Images of a Vrock with lots of Mirror Images, ect.

But yes, despite the fact that Spike saw he had no chance of winning, and despite the fact that this is only one CR 9 Bone Devil, and a level 10 party should expect to face four CR 10 encounters a day, this single monster was going to win.

And the conclusion that this forum thinks should be drawn from this exercise is that Kaelik is always wrong and group think is the right answer to every problem.

You wonder why deadDM is arguing with you. Hey, maybe it's because I already told him that you were going to declare the entire thing "inconclusive" if I won, and "obvious proof" if I lost (including when you declared obvious proof before I ever showed up) and he really thought you guys were better than that.

Well, jokes on him.

A) Despite the agonizing pace of the challenge, IMHO Spike definitely forfeited.

B) As far as I can see DeadDM was a fair, impartial referee.

C) Kaelik should seriously drop the horseshit when PMing the Referee of a challenge. It's one thing to speak smack in a heated messageboard discussion, but being a giant douche nozzle to the guy who's doing you the favor of adjudicating a pain in the ass like this Thunderdome is top-shelf no class idiocy.

D) FOR FUCK'S SAKE CAN WE NOT HAVING BORING-BORING-BORING THUNDERDOMES! If I was up on my 3E I'd offer to run one just so I could set it in a giant wrestling arena with cheering crowds, an announcer, commentary, the whole works. Even Tina Turner in chainmail!

C'mon people, you're talking trash, throwing down the gauntlet,  and representing "your team" in a inter-board-beef throwdown. Do it with some style and put on a show.

NO BORING!!!

Kaelik,

It clear that no one at therpgsite is willing to back up their words with deeds. Spike quit and no one is stepping forward to replace him.

I'd do the victory dance over the site's lack of backbone and refusal to back up their claims- when push came to shove, they were cowards or just plain lazy.

And then call it a day. There's nothing more here.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574752If it's contained to the thread it crops up, it's fine and dandy. Keep taking it to unrelated threads and you'll get a reputation as a stalker - signatures naturally appear in every thread you post to.

So it's interthread insults that constitute a problem.

So I guess you are right on your way to banning all the posters in this 14 page thread created and used for the expresses purpose of harassing people for things that occurred in another thread.

Start with Benoist, the mod who used that thread as a personal license to insult and harass people who hadn't even posted in it yet.

After all, how is calling out Spikes retreat any different than claiming no good faith arguments are made by other posters.

Quote from: Kaelik;574903So to be clear, if MGuy takes all but one HP of damage in his fight, uses all his spells, and then quits. Panzer doesn't win because it will not have been proved?

Hmm all but one HP left vs. absolutely no HPs or resources expended, hmm, that's so false of an equivalency I have to wonder what kind of useless life you have that you need to claim a non-existent victory so pathetically?

Since we're speaking about metagaming, according to you, you could have separated the Wizard out, BAM! Down. Then moved to the Cleric with the Fighter and Thief unable to stop you, then finish them off at your leisure.  That would have been awesome to see, why didn't you do it?  Was it because that's exactly what Spike was expecting?  Your Bone Devil must have pretty good ESP.

If you had gone for him and dropped him as easily and effortlessly as you said you were going to, I would have given you your due.  Instead you spent all your time arguing with the DM about your Wall of Ice.  Why so dependent upon the Wall of Ice?  Afraid of the Fighter unless he's gone through 5 or 6 of them? :rotfl:

Your theoretical situations (all of which perfectly constructed to your advantage *yawn*) are all going to come down to.
1. You declare things absolutely true that aren't
2. Someone declares a counter
3. You declare a counter-counter
4. They declare a blah blah blah
5. You do the same (and accuse them of metagaming, etc)

None of which mean anything without die rolls, Nat 1's, Nat 20's, them thinking of things you didn't or know a rule interpretation you don't (like Wall of Ice or that understanding speech adds DC+10)

All of your idiotic rants assume everything going perfect on your side and everything going lousy on the other side, it's FULL RETARD.

You didn't prove anything, you didn't inflict A SINGLE HP OF DAMAGE.

You can claim you won the Kentucky Derby all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're nothing but a shit-covered Tijuana Jackass.

Quote from: Kaelik;574915So it's interthread insults that constitute a problem.

So I guess you are right on your way to banning all the posters in this 14 page thread created and used for the expresses purpose of harassing people for things that occurred in another thread.

Start with Benoist, the mod who used that thread as a personal license to insult and harass people who hadn't even posted in it yet.

After all, how is calling out Spikes retreat any different than claiming no good faith arguments are made by other posters.

Kaelik, if you have a problem with a thread, posters, moderation or mods, i suggest you post it in the help desk section.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918Hmm all but one HP left vs. absolutely no HPs or resources expended, hmm, that's so false of an equivalency I have to wonder what kind of useless life you have that you need to claim a non-existent victory so pathetically?

I didn't say they were equivalent. But you were very clear that we can never know anything from an unfinished test, which is of course, the bullshit you are required to say because you are unwilling to admit that an evil ferner could ever be right.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918Since we're speaking about metagaming, according to you, you could have separated the Wizard out, BAM! Down. Then moved to the Cleric with the Fighter and Thief unable to stop you, then finish them off at your leisure.  That would have been awesome to see, why didn't you do it?  Was it because that's exactly what Spike was expecting?  Your Bone Devil must have pretty good ESP.

No, I didn't do that because I didn't say that's what I would do, and that's not the smartest thing to do.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918them thinking of things you didn't or know a rule interpretation you don't (like Wall of Ice or that understanding speech adds DC+10)

I do know that understanding speech requires a +10, where are you getting your idea otherwise?

Oh right, your ass, the same place you get everything.

Quote from: Kaelik;574943I didn't say they were equivalent. But you were very clear that we can never know anything from an unfinished test,

How about an unstarted one?  Hard to tell whether or not you can hit a Pitch when the ball is still in the glove.

Quote from: Kaelik;574943I do know that understanding speech requires a +10, where are you getting your idea otherwise?

Mguy got that one wrong, not you, it's just one of two examples, one from each Thunderdome, showing in a game with a million rules, you might not have them all down pat, which is why basing things solely on what goes on in your mind doesn't work in...well just about anything in life, unless maybe you're Stalin, but that still wouldn't make it true.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574785But if you want to claim that the party could have or should have won, we can pick right up from the point before the suicide.  Anyone that thinks that Spike could have won can take his party and finish what he started.

I'm willing to pick it up if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you. Based on the PMs I'm seeing, you seem to be making good judgment calls. But given the tenor of those conversations, I'd prefer to see a check placed on the "Kaelik secretly badgers the GM until he gets the ruling he wants". (Particularly since you're saying painfully stupid things like "

I'd also want to review Spike's characters since I haven't actually been paying much attention to this thread. If Spike did something stupid like create a party of 10th level characters with no capacity for teleportation, I'd rather not be constrained to that.

With that being said, I'm just going to reiterate that the entire exercise is pointless except insofar as it can prove Kaelik wrong: It can never prove Kaelik correct that the bone devil has a guaranteed 100% TPK rate (unless we repeated it over and over and over again).

PM me if there's interest in this. I'm not checking this thread religiously by any stretch of the imagination.

No more actual gameplay here Dan, shut this whore down, we got a new clean thread to shit up proper.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952I'm willing to pick it up...

Two men enter, one man leaves. Two men enter, one man leaves...

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you.

Wow. Thunderdome just became yet another bureaucracy with committees and oversight and...

Somewhere the spirit of D&D finally dies, and so too does a Kitten.