Quote from: Spike;556528Actually, I tossed a three plus hour stoneskin in as a hidden fuck you against Kaelik's weird assertion that the only Mage Buff was Mage Armor (which I didn't even take!).

Its meant to keep the theoretically squishy mage safe against closet trolls, but yes, I get that the spell list is a bit crap. The eyes have a massive duration (10 hours I believe), which brings in odd questions of casting, resting and using the remaining time on the eyes to scout around.  Finding out it's too dark for them would be (possibly) part of the whole scry/divination/augery process... though it also leads to synergy questions, which lie entirely beyond the scope of Thunderdome. I'll revise the spells a bit when I get to work in the morning. Its midnight here so I'm off to bed.

Also: Fly is actually on there so the melee guy gets to play whack-a-mole with flying opponents. I'm half tempted to drop some of his stuff for a cape of the mountbank (which proved very useful in a campaign... loot I had taken as a 'well, I guess if no one else wants it, I got an open back slot...).  I honestly expected to have more movement stuff... but I think, aside from some tweaks, that the gruesome foursome have some synergistic possibilities.

Edit: Damnit, I forgot the glowy bit.  For amusement I tossed in the glowing holy weapon, normally I never want glowy items. I'm assuming they make him toss a bag over the head of the flail when they're snooping around (with two guys in full plate...).

And for flavor: Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth, ironically, has all his fingers but a peg leg and one eye. No mechanical changes. He is just that sneaky on that damn peg leg. Its heroic, see?

THird Edit? Geeze!: Notice that I deliberately skipped my bonus spells. The point isn't to be super optimal, its to be sorta averaged. If an average joe party can win more than they lose against assassin-demon (or whatever other CR9 threat kaelik wants), then obviously the myth is busted!

Great stuff both you and Fectin.

I much prefer to see a set of rules tested like this than I do seeing people get all pissy and trying to bitchslap each other down an ethernet cable.

I will get the popcorn ready :0

Just a heads up: Kaelik implied that he had a bunch of stuff going on, back in the other thread. We may need to wait a couple days.

Quote from: Spike;556480On PrC: As a Rogue I don't honestly see the point much, as the class abilities really do stack well, and many rogue PrC's seemed weaker (except assassin, but a lot of GM/players won't allow that...).

As a Fighter (my preferred class), I do tend towards two weapon fighting, which makes Tempest a must, but that's a tiny class (5 levels), and anything beyond that is for fun (I've done tempest/templar before. Loads of fun!), but some of it is personal.

Well, even excluding prestige classes a more realistic 'rogue' build would be something like Ranger 2/Rogue 8 for someone shooting for high level rogue abilities.  Not that there aren't rogue oriented PrC that get Sneak Attack, the number one reason most players would be compelled to stick with the class.

A Fighter/Tempest would be a more realistic, non-optimized build, since two-weapon fighting is non-optimal in this edition.  It's still something people play anyway though.

Quote from: Spike;556480Its the spell casters who seem to get the most out of PrC's in my opinion, since the core 'strength' of their class is 'spell casting' and most caster PrC's keep full Spell casting but add tasty class abilities.

There are several PrC in the same book as the Tempest PrC that both continue spellcasting ability and rogue abilities for multiclassed rogue/casters.  One of the most popular rogue PrCs in the game, Shadowbane Stalker for multiclassed Cleric/Rogues is one of them, although probably too 'optimized' for the encounter in question.

All that aside people take levels of other classes for the purpose of shoring up weaknesses in their primary class, like low HP or bad saves.

Quote from: Spike;556480Tl;dr: I don't think PrC's measurably alter the Thunderdome. I could get wider 'swing' just by using a different mix of core classes (swapping a barbarian for a fighter, a sorcerer for a wizard and so forth. In a low/no-trap environment, a Ranger instead of a Rogue works well... greater HP/Dmg, plus pet and spells...)

My whole point is, it would be unusual for that Fighter to not have say 2-5 levels of Barbarian, even when ignoring PrC or splatbook stuff (which I don't personally think you should as I've never been at a table where most books were banned. No psionics, no Bo9S, and other more exotic stuff with new subsystems for the DM to learn, sure, banned.  No Complete X series though?  Never seen it happen at the actual gaming table).  

The thing is, you shouldn't be so invested in debunking Kaelik (sp?).  If this Bone Devil wipes your party 3 times out of 4, the argument is still up in the air because the scenario being created isn't one that actually happens at the table.  Likewise with ignoring bonus spells.  This is something that no player would actually do.  You should design the characters as if you were actually going to play them, even if only using 'Core' options.

I thought the whole purpose of this brouhaha was to take things out of the realm of theorycraft into the realm of actual play, and I don't think that is what is happening ITT, since the characters are still basically theorycrafted ones that wouldn't be seeing actual play in the first place.

10th level thief without a magical melee weapon?  Never.Gonna.Happen.Ever.

Quote from: fectin;556611Just a heads up: Kaelik implied that he had a bunch of stuff going on, back in the other thread. We may need to wait a couple days.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;556641

Funny...that's how I feel waiting for Legends and Labyrinths.

Quote from: CRKrueger;55662610th level thief without a magical melee weapon?  Never.Gonna.Happen.Ever.

You never saw a ranged SA thief before? I admit they are a bit weird and probably sub-optimal at the best of times.  Fine. Skip KOtD references and I'll turn him back into a morning star wielding whack-a-mole. . Geeze, next you'll tell me I should make him a hobbit or somefing.

Part of the point is that a core, simple party of non-charOp pc can hold their own.  Yes, a few levels of Barbarian would spice up Dag (as in Dag, Nab it!... the command word for the Iron Bands of Bilaro, btw) quite a bit, both in general and in specific to an ambush GM, but then we're getting all optimized. He's a little squishier than I like for a high level fighter, but I'd still take even odds for him on a solo melee(simple) match against the BD... though that is unfair to the BD due to innate abilities being ignored in a case like that.  Also: I'm one guy working out of the SRD around work. Hell, I'm not even sure I can find the two bonuses for the domains online ( do have a massive collection of PDF gamebooks, but oddly the D&D files seem to be missing...)

The general lack of scrolls, potions and random wands is an unfortunate artifact of making the party at level 10. In a real game the GM would probably be tossing off stuff in loot that would accumulate (last party I was in had three wands and a staff of healing around level ten as 'junk loot'. Among other things...). Since I'm not actually taking them into a series of dungeons, a large collection of emergency back-up utility spells was more work than I cared to do.  I put off watching Firefly for this, man! I care!  

This is why this exercise won't actually prove anything despite how fascinating it is to watch.  Far better than dickwaving at least.  But the problem is theorycraft is in a perfect vacuum, real games and characters are organic and far more than dice rolls for spells and items and WBL.

Real characters would take dimensional anchor scrolls when potentially fighting a teleporting lich and ethereal undead or... anything that teleports.

Greater Teleport on a monster was never a big deal for my 3E groups.

I've got dimensional anchor, just not on a scroll.

Quote from: Spike;556678I've got dimensional anchor, just not on a scroll.

Small suggestion if you have any inkling of what you're fighting that should be a memorized spell.  Scouting ahead for the overall strategy is the wizard's primary job. Let the Fighter do the tactics.

Quote from: fectin;556527As an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

It looks like you're saying the whole party gets stoneskinned, but that only affects one target. Not sure if that changes your tactics any.

If you strip that list down to PHB only, and imagine you are fighting undead, that list is a hell of a lot smaller. And no, only one Stoneskin'd character.

QuoteSince you've selected Dismissal: how do you all think that works for targeting invisible creatures? per the SRD, "You must be able to see or touch the target", but people frequently play that you can select a square to hit anything invisible in it.

The Bone Devil, like many critters that aren't famously invisible, only has ordinary invisibility, which means it fails when you attack. I imagine that if the BD just sits there quietly as the party goes by, then the cleric will happily not dismiss it, preferring to keep that for some other outsider threat elsewhere in the dungeon.

QuoteOn which note: I still don't know which rules this is happening under. Pure SRD? SRD + swift actions? Etc?

I fail to understand the question. I'm using the pure core book (PHB/DMG) via the SRD to make characters.  I imagine I'll keep using the SRD to ensure I don't do anything remotely shady with the rules and vice versa.  I don't imagine this would be terribly valid if we didn't use the rules as written. And yes, I may just be a legalistic asshole.

Quote from: Marleycat;556691Small suggestion if you have any inkling of what you're fighting that should be a memorized spell.  Scouting ahead for the overall strategy is the wizard's primary job. Let the Fighter do the tactics.

that's what I mean: Dimensional anchor is on the spell list.


Edit: Crap, no its not. How odd, I could have sworn I put it on there!  Maybe I avoided it since kaelik made such a big deal out of using teleport to escape?

Updated 'deeper' spell list (minor changes only, added bonus spells for stats)
Domain Powers: Freedom of movement up to 10 rounds/day, +1 caster level on healing spells
Spells:
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Conscrate, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II, Remove Paralysis
3- (Fly) Summon III (2), Searing Light, Dispell Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Death Ward, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile Mage Armor
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image, Glitterdust
3- Fly, Blink, Fireball, Halt Undead
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor
5- Extended Stoneskin, Hold Monster


The addition of mage armor means that the mage should have no bracers and 9k in miscellanious adventurint scrolls/wands... or a bigger amulet or headband... or, or, or...

Wands and scrolls are your friends it hasn't changed.

Seriously, think about spells you want to use always, they go on wands. Then you go with "corner cases" those are your scrolls, simples.

A good magic user arcane or divine either ends the fight or is able to change the terrain/strategy before physical AC is a real factor.

I may not like 4e but it does clarify your purpose and gives you training wheels to make sure you don't fuck up.