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Author Topic: [Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil  (Read 19012 times)

Bobloblah

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 10:49:57 AM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;556294
:)

I think you have to assume for the test that the PCs have consulted a sage and know there is a devil in the tombs.


I disagree with this. While I have seen parties do this at times, I've seen a great many not do this, for any number of reasons (no time, think it's unnecessary, place protected, etc.).
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Doom

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 10:54:15 AM »
Yeah, even if they knew there was a devil, they'd also know there's a ton of undead...for every devil-specific item/spell, they should have at least two that are undead-specific.
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jibbajibba

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 11:41:09 AM »
Quote from: Bobloblah;556361
I disagree with this. While I have seen parties do this at times, I've seen a great many not do this, for any number of reasons (no time, think it's unnecessary, place protected, etc.).


I know but Spike said he would have and it gives a backstory in character reason why they can expect the Devil they know is there.

Otherwise you have this daft position of only allowing them to devote an arbitary 1/3 of their resources to the enemy they know is coming.

Prefer to put it out in the open and if the moster is as tough as Kaelik says then it will be able to win despite the prep and we have a watertight case for the Devil.

And liek Brendan and I said running the scenario a coupel of tiems with different participants is valid so if the party win on round 1 due to one particular hyper item, helm of brilliance/cube of force, then we can exclude that from the next run through.
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crkrueger

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2012, 12:03:55 PM »
Quote from: Spike;556317
In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp

You got double HTTPs in your quotes, fixed 'em.
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Spike

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 12:39:25 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;556384
I know but Spike said he would have and it gives a backstory in character reason why they can expect the Devil they know is there.



I said they'd prepare knowing that it was a lich's lair, not for a devil specifically.

To be honest, I'm not really trying to hard to optimize them for devils or even  undead per se, I'm trying to build somewhat realistic 10th level characters that have a 'closet troll' DM, which, of course, means aware.  I'm a bit upset with the magic items, as it is obvious that I'm buying toys on a budget rather than collecting them more organically, but c'est la vie.  

If it weren't for the fact that they apparently JUST hit 10th level, I'd be doing some permanency spells for the party, but then I'm illegally spending xp, so no-go.   I just have a few last details to hammer out, and I should have them posted within the hour or so (had to BBQ up a steak. Mandatory today.)
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Bobloblah

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 12:55:04 PM »
I think that makes much more sense. I also think that Kaelik was specifically talking about a party that wasn't tooled up to fight a Demon/Devil; that was part of his point. You kit them out to do so and it renders the exercise rather meaningless.
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jibbajibba

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 01:03:39 PM »
Quote from: Spike;556415
I said they'd prepare knowing that it was a lich's lair, not for a devil specifically.

To be honest, I'm not really trying to hard to optimize them for devils or even  undead per se, I'm trying to build somewhat realistic 10th level characters that have a 'closet troll' DM, which, of course, means aware.  I'm a bit upset with the magic items, as it is obvious that I'm buying toys on a budget rather than collecting them more organically, but c'est la vie.  

If it weren't for the fact that they apparently JUST hit 10th level, I'd be doing some permanency spells for the party, but then I'm illegally spending xp, so no-go.   I just have a few last details to hammer out, and I should have them posted within the hour or so (had to BBQ up a steak. Mandatory today.)


Absolutely the right way to approach it.

I would suggest rolling magic items randomly but it might take an age.

You could roll 55 random magic items - 1 for 1st level, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd etc
then divide them across the group. The problem however might be that those rolls really dictate your success. Roll a vorpal sword, great , roll a cube of force, great, roll a cursed sword -2 boo hoo (do those exist in 3x?) ... and that really makes the case for characters being too reliant on kit and the whim of the DM.

I think it would be an interesting exercise to generate a random 'magic' parcel and see how it compares to the 'average parcel'.

To be honest I am not sure how the magic economy in 3x works having rejected the game very early because I thought it relied too much on system mastery.
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Wolf, Richard

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2012, 01:03:46 PM »
It's not a realistic 3/3.5 game with straight up class levels, no prestige classes or multiclassing by level 9.  These characters shouldn't necessarily be CharOp board optimized, but so few people plan their characters out as single-classed that it isn't a realistic example of actual play in this edition.  I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a single-class character at the table at this level excepting casters that are shooting for one of the PrC that require high-level spell access as a prereq.   The plethora of classes, prestige classes, is so baked into D&D 3/3.5 that it shouldn't be ignored here.

As for selecting gear for characters starting higher than first level, there are rules for this in the DMG.  Page 199 of the 3.5 DMG is the section in question.  The chart for overall wealth by level is on page 135.  9th level characters have 36,000gp.  Characters with Magic Item Creation Feats can spend their XP to have created magic items as well (presumably reducing them to below 9th level without reducing their wealth per level down a notch).

I disagree that any foreknowledge should play into the scenario as well.  From my own experience there is almost never any information available about encounters in a given adventure/dungeon other than the big bad itself.

jibbajibba

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2012, 01:05:25 PM »
Quote from: Bobloblah;556423
I think that makes much more sense. I also think that Kaelik was specifically talking about a party that wasn't tooled up to fight a Demon/Devil; that was part of his point. You kit them out to do so and it renders the exercise rather meaningless.


But he did go one to expound on how awesome the deveil was anyway. I think that Spike has the right approach but would be happy to see a team of devil slayers take the stand, provided they didn't have an Arrow of Slaying Bone Devils of course.
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Bobloblah

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2012, 01:18:51 PM »
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;556426
It's not a realistic 3/3.5 game with straight up class levels, no prestige classes or multiclassing by level 9.  These characters shouldn't necessarily be CharOp board optimized, but so few people plan their characters out as single-classed that it isn't a realistic example of actual play in this edition.  I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a single-class character at the table at this level excepting casters that are shooting for one of the PrC that require high-level spell access as a prereq.   The plethora of classes, prestige classes, is so baked into D&D 3/3.5 that it shouldn't be ignored here.

The trouble is that I'm pretty sure Kaelik agrees with you on this, but that wasn't his assertion: he was talking about CR and how it relates to Core, non-optimised characters.

Quote from: jibbajibba;556427
But he did go one to expound on how awesome the deveil was anyway. I think that Spike has the right approach but would be happy to see a team of devil slayers take the stand, provided they didn't have an Arrow of Slaying Bone Devils of course.

I get what you're saying, and I think we're mostly on the same page. I just think that kitting someone out for the specific task proves nothing. That's not what CR was supposed to represent, regardless of whether or not you think it was broken (and I do - particularly at higher levels - but that's less about CR than it is about the whole game).

Even the scenario described isn't necessarily all that representative. Yes, it could work out this way, but it still seems to be assuming all factors are in the Devil's favour.
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Spike

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2012, 02:46:28 PM »
Dag Hammerskojld:

Half Orc, Fighter 10, CG, worships Pelor (Mechanically unimportant for this contest)

Stats: STR 19 (23), Dex 10 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 6
HP 73   AC: 21    Attack: +16/+11  Saves: 9/4/8
Weapon: +1 Holy Heavy Flail (+22/+17 d10+10 (+2d6), 17-20/x2)
Armor: +3 Full Plate
Misc Magic: Belt of Ogre Str (+4), Cloak of Resistance (+1), 3 potions cure moderate, 1 potion silversheen,
Misc other: Random mundane equipment

Feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical, Blind Fight, Iron Will, Leadership (5th level paladin guarding the mules outside...)

Skills: Climb 10 , Ride 4, Intimidate 10, Swim 4 (raw, don't expect they'll be used)

Dag was born to a human mother in a mixed orc/half-orc semi-nomadic tribe that wandered the arid lands to the east of wherever. The harsh sun was placated by the tribe in primative rituals, but they still lost animals and people, including Dag's mother.  Fascinated by the cities they could often see in the distance, Dag left the tribe and found work as a sword-for-hire, a process that brought him quickly into adventuring.  Having linked up with a priest of Pelor, who taught him better ways to venerate the Sun, Dag now is a very enthusiastic follower of the Sun-lord, and wants nothing more than to serve him in the afterlife kicking all kinds of monster butt.  He loves the heavy flail the church granted him because it allows him to kick even more monster butt... but more importantly, he feels the golden glow of it makes him look even more heroic.  His full plate was once shiny and new, but is now heavily battered and fire-blackened, which he views with great pride, for he's survived the 'gaze of the Sun' a few too many times... though what he means by that is anyone's guess.  Motivation: Glory.

Jurgen Hammerskoljd: Human, Cleric 10 of Pelor, NG
Str: 10, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 13
HP 76   AC 22   Attack: +7/+2  Saves: 9/2/10
Weapon: Hvy Mace +1 (+8/+3 D8+1/x2)
Armor: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield
Misc Magic: Circlet of Blasting, Minor (3d8/6d6 ranged touch 1/day), Goggles of Night, Medallion of Thoughts, 2 vials of silversheen,
Misc Other: Gold holy symbol, back up holy symbol (wood).  Holy water vials (4).  Holy scripture, Tabard, misc adventuring gear.
Feats: Improved Init. Spell Penetration,  Spell Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summon, Quicken Spell
Skills: Concentration 13 (15), Diplomacy 10 (11), Know:Religion 10 (11), Spellcraft 8(9)
Domains: Healing, Travel
Spells:  
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Conscrate, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II
3- (Fly) Summon III, Searing Light, Dispell Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Death Ward, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

(note: Had this been a real game, I might have gone with Gond, Planning Domain and (thus) Heroes Feast as a 5th level domain spell....)

Jurgen was the third son of a minor noble, and thus entered the church at a young age. Luckily, he found the scholarly life far more to his liking than the life of a squire might have been, and he prospered. Once he was Ordained, he deliberately chose a mission to the Nomads of the East, looking for the tribe that had murdered his mother when he was a babe.  What he found was a far more complex story of betrayal, escape, love and tragedy and all that other good shit. He also found he had a savage half brother, whom he eventually tracked to the nearby cities. WIthout revealing their shared blood, he befriended the hulking brute and found he enjoyed smiting evil with a good team of professional adventurers. WHile his half-brother's enthusiasm for slaughter and general lack of civilized education dismay's him, he does care for 'the lad', and has eagerly inducted him into the faith.
Jurgen is a slender, slightly weedy, pale young man who is rarely without his polished and inlaid armor and sun-shaped shied and mace. He has an excellent singing voice. Motivation: Faith, Family.

Ambrose the Awesome, CN, Human Wizard, follower of Amen-bro-thep.
Str 8 Dex 13 Con 14(16), Int 17(19), Wis 12 Cha 10
HP 60 AC 14  BaB: +4 Saves: 7/4/8
Weapons: none
Armor: Light coat of baby oil.  
Misc Magic: Amulet of Health, 1 bead of force, toga (cloak) of displacement, sweatband of Intellect, Potion of cure moderate (2)
Feats: Greater Spell Penetration, Extend Spell, Combat Casting, Spell Mastery Familiar (rat), Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell
Skills: Concentration 13 (16/20), Spellcraft 13 (17), Profession: Bro 13 (14), Decipher Script 13 (17), Knowledge: Arcana 6 (10)
Spells: 0- don't actually care: Mage hand 3 Disrupt undead 3
1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image
3- Fly, Blink, Fireball
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles
5- Extended Stoneskin, Prying Eyes

No one at the mage academy thought Ambrose would graduate, for he was far too interested in booze and chicks to study.  At best they figured he'd wash out, at worst he'd blow himself up. Surprisingly, neither happened.  Ambrose is particularly obnoxious, almost always has booze on him somewhere, and will hit on anything remotely humanoid and female, friendly or not. He's been kicked out of several adventuring groups, and more than one has tried to murder him.  Since the Hammerskojld Boys have lost a couple of mages along the way, they're willing to tolerate his boorish behavior... though they wish he'd put some damn clothes on!   Ambrose worships a mysterious deity, the Ultimate Brah, and he plans on getting powerful enough to one day steal a divine spark from Azathoth so he can party with Amenbrothep for the rest of eternity. Motivations: Brah!

Gareth Three-Fingers, the Fifth: Dwarven Rogue 10, CN, Worships Filthy Lucre
Str 12 Dex 17 (19), Con 15 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 6
HP 57 AC 18 (19) BaB 8/3 or 12/6 (ranged)  Saves: 5/11/5 Init:+8
Weapon: Heavy Crossbow +1 (+13, d10+1, 19-20/x2
Armor: +2 Mithril Shirt of Shadow/Silent Moves (+5 each)
Misc Magic: Gloves of Dex+2, Iron Bands of Bilaro,
Misc Other: Thieves tools, various dungeon crawling gear (piton, rope, crowbar, chalk etc). Ten Each Cold Iron, Alchemical crossbow bolts. 5 Adamantium Crossbow bolts
Feats: Alertness, Improved Init, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Crippling Strike, Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak Attack +5d6
Skills:  Hide 13 (22) Move Silent 13 (22) Listen 13 (15) Spot 13 (15) Search 13 (13), Open Locks 13 (17) Disable Device 13 (15) Appraisal 13 (15) Tumble 13 (17) Use Magic Device 13 (11)

Gareth comes from a big clan of dwarven outcasts (all thieves) who follow a strange code of honor, adopting the name and duties of fallen kin. Thus "Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth" is actually some other Dwarf who is the fourth replacement for a dwarf named Gareth Three-Fingers. He has inherited his progenitors favorite heavy crossbow, and like all the previous Gareths, he has an overwhelming love of gold and a crappy attitude. He's a decent enough thief for all that, but he has an unfortunate tendency to be more aggressive to harmless townspeople and landscaping construction than towards monsters. The Gareth Three-Fingers that proceeded him were all very aggressive, and 'The Fifth' is determined to survive, so he is far more cautious than his peers were.  Motivation: Family Honor and Filthy Lucre.



Note: Everything came from core (actually, the SRD), and I played it simple with equipment and skills, even shorted myself bonus spells, so fuck you.  Presumably Ambrose has more spells than listed, I just put the memorized ones in.  Likewise, Jurgen will happily use Augery and Divination days before entering a dungeon to avoid nasty shocks, then pray for the list above or one like it, depending on what's in store. I was tempted, just for the hell of it, to pool character wealth to buy an Apparatus of Kwalish, but I figured that would be rude.  Likewise, there are at least four pack mules and some hirelings, led by the fifth level cohort waiting outside the dungeon.

Party uses the 20 turn (3 1/2 hour) timer on Ambrose's Stoneskin for 'daily duties', planning to be in and out of undead lairs long before the sun goes down. Likewise, Ambrose's Rat will talk to dungeon-native rats for clues to what lies ahead (plus the ten hour flying eyeball spell).  Jurgen will use his detect thoughts medallion to check rooms and corners, and alternating with detect evil (or detect undead, which he should have as his bonus spell) if a room/corridor seems oddly empty.

Gareth wil remain sneaky whenever possible and is responsible for door checking (traps, listening and locks... in that order).

Note that this party does not need a light source. Ambrose can darkvision himself if necessary, and will probably be helped along by the other party members as necessary (they are all slow buggers compared to the naked guy, so that's hardly an issue).

As an aside: For remarkably 'deep' dungeons with good choke points/linear design, the support 'party' would follow the PC' to set camp at the 'end' of the duty day.

Feel free to check my math. Four 10th characters in a blitz from the SRD is prone to glitches, bitches.


EDIT::: seven minutes late! I fail at life....
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 12:21:23 AM by Spike »
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Spike

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2012, 02:56:32 PM »
On PrC: As a Rogue I don't honestly see the point much, as the class abilities really do stack well, and many rogue PrC's seemed weaker (except assassin, but a lot of GM/players won't allow that...).

As a Fighter (my preferred class), I do tend towards two weapon fighting, which makes Tempest a must, but that's a tiny class (5 levels), and anything beyond that is for fun (I've done tempest/templar before. Loads of fun!), but some of it is personal.

Its the spell casters who seem to get the most out of PrC's in my opinion, since the core 'strength' of their class is 'spell casting' and most caster PrC's keep full Spell casting but add tasty class abilities.

But honestly, I really just wanted to keep this simple core.  I'll admit to some dissatisfaction with spell lists, but I usually play fighters, and my caster experience grew the list organically around what the GM threw at us (and we used the Spell Compendium, so I had a LOT more options. Aura/summon cleric was brutal and very safe!).  

Tl;dr: I don't think PrC's measurably alter the Thunderdome. I could get wider 'swing' just by using a different mix of core classes (swapping a barbarian for a fighter, a sorcerer for a wizard and so forth. In a low/no-trap environment, a Ranger instead of a Rogue works well... greater HP/Dmg, plus pet and spells...)
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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2012, 04:44:03 PM »
Looks pretty reasonable to me, for what that's worth. As long as you and Kaelik can agree that it's good, I really don't care though. (That's actually the reason I suggested the elite array: no-one ever thinks it's too much).

Likewise, if you and he agree that "10th level" means halfway to the next level and full of tasty xp for crafting/contingencies/permenancies, I have no objection. When I said it, I meant to remind you it was an option, not remove n option from you.

Here are some thoughts:
Which of the magic items glow? That's normally about as important as what color they are, but you two spent a while arguing over who saw who, when. IMHO, if you're choosing them, you get to choose whether they glow.

I don't see any reason you wouldn't get those bonus spells. You've got 19 INT, that gives you bonuses of 0/1/1/1/1/0 for total spells at levels 0-5 of 4/5/5/4/4/2. Cleric has 17 WIS, and should end up with 4/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1.

You might consider using prying eyes the night before, and prepping something else day-of. If you do that, you'll learn that it gets dark fairly quickly inside, and that the ceiling isn't very high.

One of wizards' strengths normally is that they can cart around a bunch of scrolls of spells that you nearly never need. That's also true for clerics, but less so. Generally, I'd suggest carrying scrolls of e.g. Knock instead of memorizing it, because it's so situational.

I assume you have the component for True Seeing (it's $250), but you may want to list it explicitly. Same thing for Stoneskin.

If you're just using fly as "Immunity to Dire Bears," levitate fills that role too, and is a level lower.

You may want to reevaluate including Glitterdust in your lineup. It's a 2nd level AoE will save against blindness, which incidentally reveals invisible things. Similarly, Solid Fog doesn't have a save and locks down a whole area. Either is pretty awesome against zombie hordes.

Hit points are much higher in 3E than in previous editions, so fireball is much less good. Zombies and other undead double down on that by having even higher HP. However, Major Image is very nearly an auto-win against mindless undead, and no slouch against everything else either. I suspect that Kaelik will object if you just skybox opponents (I know I would), but it's still great.

As an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

It looks like you're saying the whole party gets stoneskinned, but that only affects one target. Not sure if that changes your tactics any.

Since you've selected Dismissal: how do you all think that works for targeting invisible creatures? per the SRD, "You must be able to see or touch the target", but people frequently play that you can select a square to hit anything invisible in it.

On which note: I still don't know which rules this is happening under. Pure SRD? SRD + swift actions? Etc?

Spike

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2012, 05:02:07 PM »
Actually, I tossed a three plus hour stoneskin in as a hidden fuck you against Kaelik's weird assertion that the only Mage Buff was Mage Armor (which I didn't even take!).

Its meant to keep the theoretically squishy mage safe against closet trolls, but yes, I get that the spell list is a bit crap. The eyes have a massive duration (10 hours I believe), which brings in odd questions of casting, resting and using the remaining time on the eyes to scout around.  Finding out it's too dark for them would be (possibly) part of the whole scry/divination/augery process... though it also leads to synergy questions, which lie entirely beyond the scope of Thunderdome. I'll revise the spells a bit when I get to work in the morning. Its midnight here so I'm off to bed.

Also: Fly is actually on there so the melee guy gets to play whack-a-mole with flying opponents. I'm half tempted to drop some of his stuff for a cape of the mountbank (which proved very useful in a campaign... loot I had taken as a 'well, I guess if no one else wants it, I got an open back slot...).  I honestly expected to have more movement stuff... but I think, aside from some tweaks, that the gruesome foursome have some synergistic possibilities.

Edit: Damnit, I forgot the glowy bit.  For amusement I tossed in the glowing holy weapon, normally I never want glowy items. I'm assuming they make him toss a bag over the head of the flail when they're snooping around (with two guys in full plate...).

And for flavor: Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth, ironically, has all his fingers but a peg leg and one eye. No mechanical changes. He is just that sneaky on that damn peg leg. Its heroic, see?

THird Edit? Geeze!: Notice that I deliberately skipped my bonus spells. The point isn't to be super optimal, its to be sorta averaged. If an average joe party can win more than they lose against assassin-demon (or whatever other CR9 threat kaelik wants), then obviously the myth is busted!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:07:14 PM by Spike »
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Marleycat

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[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2012, 05:38:11 PM »
Quote

As an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962
If you were allowing Dragonlance 3E then Mindspin is even more fun than Weird.
Don't mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)