Before Pundit and Red Fox step in with the "It's successful because it does everything better!" hyperbole, I need to make it clear that this thread is about actually discussing what makes d20 so successful, not pushing subjective value judgements as some kind of universally applicable fact. If you've got that kind of claptrap in your head, shake it out now.

That said, I think that d20 success can be attributed to two things -- branding and licensing. To be clear, I am not saying that the game is mechanically weak, but there is no factual evidence to suggest that it works (mechanically) better than other popular game systems (e.g., GURPS, BRP, etc).

On the other hand, mountains of factual evidence to suggest that the OGL and d20 System license made d20 popular with publishers and, thus, bolstered its popularity among consumers (as, for a while, many publishers were designing exclusively for d20).

Note that D&D is the only d20 System game (so far as I am aware to crack the C&G Top 5 games, whereas games such as Rifts and GURPS tend to crak it regularly and repeatedly (D&D has, however, pretty much held onto the number one spot for since 2000).

This seems to indicate that, as a system, while d20 is popular among publishers, only one of its many variations seems to be outstripping other game systems where consumers are concerned (which may explain why companies liek AEG dropped their remaining d20 lines recently).

So, as Bradford Walker was so fond of screaming for years over at TBP, the secret to d20's success seems to be two-fold: branding and licensing. There are, of course, other reasons that people play d20 System games (I myself play them because it's next to impossible to find players for anything else) -- these two factors simply seem to be vital to why it continues to proliferate as it does.

Quote from: jdrakehBefore Pundit and Red Fox step in with the "It's successful because it does everything better!" hyperbole, I need to make it clear that this thread is about actually discussing what makes d20 so successful, not pushing subjective value judgements as some kind of universally applicable fact. If you've got that kind of claptrap in your head, shake it out now.

Fuck you man, I never said that.

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, I think that d20 success can be attributed to two things -- branding and licensing. To be clear, I am not saying that the game is mechanically weak, but there is no factual evidence to suggest that it works (mechanically) better than other popular game systems (e.g., GURPS, BRP, etc).

Oh look, claptrap!

:rolleyes:

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, I think that d20 success can be attributed to two things -- branding and licensing. To be clear, I am not saying that the game is mechanically weak, but there is no factual evidence to suggest that it works (mechanically) better than other popular game systems (e.g., GURPS, BRP, etc).

Give me a criteria whereby we can judge what is popular, then we can start looking at mechanical comparisons.

Success? I haven't been following this closely at all, but I thought there's a growing feeling all round that as of 2007 time's up for d20? And that the Ennies trying to broaden their base is the clearest symptom of that?

Quote from: jrientsGive me a criteria whereby we can judge what is popular, then we can start looking at mechanical comparisons.

Yeah, because otherwise we get bogged down into "it's marketing brainwashing!" "it's a good game!" argument again.

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, I think that d20 success can be attributed to two things -- branding and licensing. To be clear, I am not saying that the game is mechanically weak, but there is no factual evidence to suggest that it works (mechanically) better than other popular game systems (e.g., GURPS, BRP, etc).

I disagree, there are many mechanics found in d20 games that has established it as a market leader.

QuoteOn the other hand, mountains of factual evidence to suggest that the OGL and d20 System license made d20 popular with publishers and, thus, bolstered its popularity among consumers (as, for a while, many publishers were designing exclusively for d20).

This implies that D&D was not the world's most popular RPG before the OGL. It was. Therefore the branding and "mindshare" advantages that D&D gained from the OGL were gravy. They let it lap the pack AGAIN. They are not the reason for its success, mechanics are.

This doesn't mean D&D is BETTER. That's a decision between every gamer and his conscience.

It does mean, however, that the majority of gamers have made that decision in one recognizable direction.  

QuoteNote that D&D is the only d20 System game (so far as I am aware to crack the C&G Top 5 games, whereas games such as Rifts and GURPS tend to crak it regularly and repeatedly (D&D has, however, pretty much held onto the number one spot for since 2000).

You're using some pretty flawed data though. Looking at amazon's most popular list, I see the d20 Modern Core Rules and the SW d20 Core Rules currently clocking in at #10 and #11, following a top then that's 100% D&D (on the games front).

I hate to break this to you, but d20 Modern and d20 Star Wars are d20 games.

So you're argument doesn't really hold a lot of water in the MUCH larger publishing world outside the C&G numbers. You're basically looking at a map of Antarctica and then predicting the weather in Florida based on that data.

QuoteThis seems to indicate that, as a system, while d20 is popular among publishers, only one of its many variations seems to be outstripping other game systems where consumers are concerned (which may explain why companies liek AEG dropped their remaining d20 lines recently).

This has more to do with AEG than it does with d20. When WOTC drops d20, let me know.

QuoteSo, as Bradford Walker was so fond of screaming for years over at TBP, the secret to d20's success seems to be two-fold: branding and licensing. There are, of course, other reasons that people play d20 System games (I myself play them because it's next to impossible to find players for anything else) -- these two factors simply seem to be vital to why it continues to proliferate as it does.

No, they're not vital.

D20 has things it does mechanically better than other systems.

It was the #1 game before the license, so attributing its CONTINUED success to the license is just intellectually dishonest.

Sorry.

It really is a good game.

If it wasn't, people would *gasp* play something else.

Quote from: jdrakehOn the other hand, mountains of factual evidence to suggest that the OGL and d20 System license made d20 popular with publishers and, thus, bolstered its popularity among consumers (as, for a while, many publishers were designing exclusively for d20).

Here's a look at the state of the industry pre-OGL:

QuoteWhen I started full-time in the industry at Iron Crown Enterprises, at the time the publishers or both Rolemaster and Champions, a smart guy (it was either Kevin Barrett or S. Coleman Charlton, I no longer remember which -- perhaps it was both... they're both smart guys) told me that TSR, the market leader at the time (by a long way) and the company that owned D&D, wasn't the enemy. We weren't in competition with D&D, and we'd be kidding ourselves to think it. Our audience was made up almost entirely of people who had played D&D and now were looking for something else (or who still played D&D and were looking for something more). To be blunt, we lived off TSR's scraps. But we lived quite happily on those scraps -- it was a viable niche, and one best served if those within it recognized that we were in it. That awareness stayed with me over the years, even as I went to work for TSR and then Wizards (who became the market leader after buying TSR), and when I left again.

That's Monte Cook about the state of the industry in the 80's and 90's.

What do we notice about this quote?

Oh yeah, it's basically the way it is now, except back then all other games lived of TSR's scraps and today they live off WOTC's scraps.

But the top dog has still not been knocked off.

If you think the quality of the game MECHANICALLY has nothing to do with that, then you're a sucker.

What (in the name of the nine hells) is it that you think d20 does so spectacularly well in mechanical terms?

Quote from: GRIMWhat (in the name of the nine hells) is it that you think d20 does so spectacularly well in mechanical terms?

I believe classes and levels are the two main components of d20's (and D&D's before it) success mechanically.

The first thing most non-d20 games do (and even a couple of recent d20 games) is get rid of classes and levels.

Here's a secret that most game designers I talk to KNOW, even when *they personally* design a game without classes and levels: the vast majority of gamers like those things.

Let's look at classes first:

Most gamers like building from an archetype. They don't have a deep unique vision of their character as a person when they create him. That does (and really SHOULD) come later from play.

What they know when they create the character is what ROLE they like to play in the party. D&D classes give you that role right up front. At its most basic you're either a Fighter, Healer, Thief or Mage.

Players like this individually, since it stops them from making important decisions before play begins, like in GURPs where you need to figure out your character's personality pre-game.

Collectively, this makes party cohesion a dream. It's not like CoC where I have seen players do a "role call" of important skills pre-game to make sure all the bases are covered by someone in the party.

In D&D you can tell this at a glance. If you have a good mix of fighters, healers, thieves and mages, you're good to go.

Now let's look at levels.

Levels occur often enough to make you feel like your character is growing and advancing mechanically. Players like this. It keeps them involved in the game.

Levels are enough of a power boost to be noticeable when they occur. Again, players like this. They feel like they've accomplished something.

Finally, and this ties back into classes, Levels are quick and easy to apply.

Compare this to point based systems. In a system like GURPs or HERO you get a few points here, a few points there, you get them a LOT. Like every few sessions.

You constantly have to decide if you want to spend them or save them. If you spend them, where? Each adventure's XP doesn't make much of a difference but it adds up over the long haul.

This basically forces you to construct a plan, based on your party role to continue to grow the character into the niche the party needs that he was designed to fill.

D&D/d20 does this for you.

Most designers, when they go to design their own system, immediately cut out the two things that have contributed to D&D's success for decades.

Chuck

Quote from: GRIMWhat (in the name of the nine hells) is it that you think d20 does so spectacularly well in mechanical terms?

I'm curious about this as well, for my own reasons.

Oh, and no d20 analysis is complete without me saying "network externalities".

There you go.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerOh, and no d20 analysis is complete without me saying "network externalities".

There you go.

Thank you, Bradford, we were starving here.

Now, if John Wick would care to join us, it'd be like a Y2K rpg.net reunion.

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, I think that d20 success can be attributed to two things -- branding and licensing.

That's because you don't work in marketing. I do. I read AdAge every week, along with a ton of other marketing articles, books, etc.. The general consensus is that advertising/marketing as we know it is dead, that it no longer works. The marketing world is abuzz with the idea that a new and different model must be found.

Believe me, if just branding or advertising your product would ensure that folks would buy it, you'd be pouring New Coke on your cereal instead of milk. The Coke brand is the number one brand out there. It's literally worth billions and billions and billlions of dollars. Trust me, Coca-Cola does not have a license to print money despite having possibly the most powerful brand that's ever existed. They still have to work at it, just like everybody else...

Quote from: jdrakehTo be clear, I am not saying that the game is mechanically weak, but there is no factual evidence to suggest that it works (mechanically) better than other popular game systems (e.g., GURPS, BRP, etc).

Personally, I don't think it's mechancially better than other systems, but I do believe it's better at or delivers more of what more gamers want. Chocolate and coffee favored are both ice cream. One doesn't outsell the other because it's more "ice creamier"—chocolate outsells coffee because more people want the taste of chocolate than they do coffee.

People have more choice than every before. It's easier to get games and they come in a wider variety.

Quote from: jdrakehOn the other hand, mountains of factual evidence to suggest that the OGL and d20 System license made d20 popular with publishers and, thus, bolstered its popularity among consumers (as, for a while, many publishers were designing exclusively for d20).

I think you've got that backwards. The OGL and d20 were popular with publishers because some many people played D&D.

Consider that the OGL/d20 license is just one of many open ones. Yet it's the one that so many publishers chose to use. If the publishers could select a license and bolster its popularity among consumers, the smart thing to do would be to choose small system to license, produce a good product, bolster the popularity of the system, make a lot of money, then duck out as other companies rushed in to compete for market share. Rinse and repeat.

You won't see that happening, however, because publishers (particularly the ones we're talking about) have a damn limited ability to convince consumers that their product should be the one to be purchased.

Again, marketing and advertising don't make things popular. They allow the consumers to latch onto a product or service they're already pre-disposed toward enjoying.

Quote from: jdrakehNote that D&D is the only d20 System game (so far as I am aware to crack the C&G Top 5 games, whereas games such as Rifts and GURPS tend to crak it regularly and repeatedly (D&D has, however, pretty much held onto the number one spot for since 2000).

You have to demonstrate that the C&G Top 5 is reprenstative of the market as a whole, however. It's data, and that's always good, but it's plenty easy to get skewed data.

Quote from: jdrakehThis seems to indicate that, as a system, while d20 is popular among publishers, only one of its many variations seems to be outstripping other game systems where consumers are concerned (which may explain why companies liek AEG dropped their remaining d20 lines recently).

And they're smart to do so.

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIf you think the quality of the game MECHANICALLY has nothing to do with that, then you're a sucker.

I do think that D&D has mechanical features that make it popular, but I think there is something else that the "scraps" line (a term I've used myself) points to.  D&D is one of the only games that has what Ryan Dancey has referred to as an "entry level product or acquisition path".  Other games don't bring new people into the hobby the way D&D does (and to a lesser extent, WW does).  Yes, you'll see the claim that games like Everyway or Fudge are great for beginners but that's only true if there is an experienced GM running it.  What other games lack is the box that a kid can get for Christmas and figure out how to play on his or her own.  And where the whole dungeon theme is useful is that it's very easy for a beginning GM to wrap their mind around and do.

Quote from: John MorrowI do think that D&D has mechanical features that make it popular, but I think there is something else that the "scraps" line (a term I've used myself) points to.  D&D is one of the only games that has what Ryan Dancey has referred to as an "entry level product or acquisition path".  Other games don't bring new people into the hobby the way D&D does (and to a lesser extent, WW does).  Yes, you'll see the claim that games like Everyway or Fudge are great for beginners but that's only true if there is an experienced GM running it.  What other games lack is the box that a kid can get for Christmas and figure out how to play on his or her own.  And where the whole dungeon theme is useful is that it's very easy for a beginning GM to wrap their mind around and do.

I agree with this.

Id also point out that many of things we think of as "D&D" are in fact things people just flat love to do in games.

Exploring the unknown.

This is one a few games have the POTENTIAL to have on their side, like Traveller (though most Traveller games I played in back in the day cast the PCs as merchants, smugglers or mercs so there was no exploration). Hell, even most Star Trek games Ive played have been more about kicking Klingon ass than exploring.

This is something modern games notoriously miss out on, unless you're running a pulp "Lost Worlds" type campaign.

Dungeons!

This is another one that people constantly point to as a "problem" with D&D. A problem with everyone except the majority of the RPG customer base. This is another element that many non-d20 designers work their hardest to exclude from their games.

The Old World.

Ever notice all the RUINS in a D&D game? There's a huge civilization that was much more advanced than the current civilizations that went extinct in the distant past of 90% of fantasy game worlds, from Greyhawk to Middle Earth to Hyboria to Spira.

Tactical Combat.

Most gamers enjoy interesting combat. Some more than others to be sure, but again, the vast majority of gamers likes a challenge that makes them think, maneuver, use character abilities and lose hit points.

Now a lot of these things are NOT a large part of any fantasy novel. While three of them can be found Middle Earth, and three can be found in Hyboria (just not the same three), they were included in original D&D in much larger doses because... players liked them.

One thing D&D has done for a lot of its lifespan that helps explain how it has maintained popularity is give the people what they want.

It plays to the groundlings.

And while other game designers sniff and refuse to include classes, or levels or dungeons or combat or splatbooks in THEIR unique snowflake of a game, D&D has continued to sit on the top of the hill.

Chuck

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckOh yeah, it's basically the way it is now, except back then all other games lived of TSR's scraps and today they live off WOTC's scraps.

But the top dog has still not been knocked off.

If you think the quality of the game MECHANICALLY has nothing to do with that, then you're a sucker.

So if this was the nature of the industry pre-d20, and things don't change with the arrival of d20, then it stands to reason that d20 is not responsible for this situation.