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Author Topic: The Return of Heavy.....  (Read 1077 times)

David R

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The Return of Heavy.....
« on: September 27, 2006, 10:04:03 PM »
I don't know if this is the proper section to post this but here goes.

I posted this before.

Quote
I have often wondered when we talk about the impact of heavy shit in our games, that the only impact that has any overt significance are when the choices of one player/character makes with regards to heavy shit which confronts him/her affects the choices/options/safety/etc of the other players/characters. I mean no matter how much we(as GMs) invest in the characterizations of the setting's npcs, the players would naturally(hopefully) have more empathy towards the other players.

Just putting it out there.


Here's the thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14597#post14597

So, I was wondering what folks around here think about this comment?

Regards,
David R

Bagpuss

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2006, 04:58:53 AM »
I think I'm comming to this too late, what was the original heavy shit thread?
 

ColonelHardisson

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2006, 01:06:09 PM »
Quote from: David R
So, I was wondering what folks around here think about this comment?


It might help to get the ball rolling if you tell us what you think about it.
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fonkaygarry

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2006, 02:36:34 PM »
Before I can form an opinion of heavy shit, I need an example of said shit.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with PCs making decisions that impact the safety of other PCs.  You get that every time a PC kicks open a dungeon door or tries to shake down a hustler for intel.
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David R

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2006, 11:17:03 PM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson
It might help to get the ball rolling if you tell us what you think about it.


The original discussion of heavy shit started here :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13614#post13614

What it means is realistic themes that some gamers inject into their games. However thats not really what I'm getting at.

In recent campaigns my players have been having a lot of pc vs pc interaction - sometimes even conflict - that seems to become the focus of these campaigns.

The main reason given for this apparent preference of play (and something that I've always suspected, at least in the groups that I have gamed with) is that these interactions/conflict seems to resonate more, than conflicts with npcs.

Which is not to say that npcs relationships/conflicts etc are secondary or that the value of npcs as part of the setting and to the pcs are not a priority, merely that the players (in my group at least) feel that the game somehow seems more vibrant and exciting when their characters are mixing it with each other then with just the npcs.

Tough choices according to them, seems much more real and urgent, when it involves/concerns the pcs as a group or individually. Betrayal from within, conflict from within the group and how it relates to the greater world seems to be the prefered style of play. Some would call it Uber Protagonization, I think :D

More and more, I'm encouraged (and I'm not complaining) to create/inject situations, that focus more on creating  dramatic situations which revolve around the pcs rather than situations that involve nps that the pcs react to -if this makes any kind of sense :)

Regards,
David R

beejazz

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2006, 11:35:11 AM »
I see no problems with this. Also, I'm curious how strong/weak your violence is. In my experience, if people don't die often enough they actually seek out danger (including but not limited to other players). Again, nothing wrong with in-group conflict (dueling protagonists is pretty much staple in anime, and likewise for a certain level of intrigue, including your classic "evil" party) but if you want to prevent it, just make the outside world a little more meaningful... a good half-party kill should do the job quite nicely. Especially considering that "OH SHIT WE IS GONNA DIE" Is a pretty suitable motive that both revolves around the PCs and is facillitated by the outside world.

David R

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2006, 08:41:38 PM »
Quote from: beejazz
I see no problems with this. Also, I'm curious how strong/weak your violence is. In my experience, if people don't die often enough they actually seek out danger (including but not limited to other players). Again, nothing wrong with in-group conflict (dueling protagonists is pretty much staple in anime, and likewise for a certain level of intrigue, including your classic "evil" party) but if you want to prevent it, just make the outside world a little more meaningful... a good half-party kill should do the job quite nicely. Especially considering that "OH SHIT WE IS GONNA DIE" Is a pretty suitable motive that both revolves around the PCs and is facillitated by the outside world.


The level of violence in my games is dependent on the kind of game I'm running :) Also there are different types (yeah I know, the phrase is problematic) of violence. For instance in my Feng shui campaign the violence is pretty cartoonish, but it is more visceral in my Hunter game.

Emphasis mine. Actually what I was getting at is that the only kind of meaningful conflict is perhaps the in group kind.

Regards,
David R

beejazz

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2006, 09:03:52 PM »
Quote from: David R
The level of violence in my games is dependent on the kind of game I'm running :) Also there are different types (yeah I know, the phrase is problematic) of violence. For instance in my Feng shui campaign the violence is pretty cartoonish, but it is more visceral in my Hunter game.

Emphasis mine. Actually what I was getting at is that the only kind of meaningful conflict is perhaps the in group kind.

Regards,
David R


Actually, I do think you've got it half right. It has to at least be meaningful to the group. In that the group must actually feel some kind of consequence as the result of the action. Civilizations can rise and fall around a PC, thousands of people can die or be saved as a result of a PC's decision, "good" or "evil" (or... I guess Communists vs. Capitalist) can win their battles in short or long term... but none of this matters except as it has a bearing on the PCs. So while I agree that the bulk of the action should revolve around the PCs, I see no need to limit it to the action between PCs, no reason to believe that action between the PCs is better or more real than interaction between PCs and NPCs (except in the most subjective sense, such as if a DM is working with un-fleshed-out un-interactive settings or cynical players whose suspension of disbelief relies on competition with another human being (never mind that the GM is also a human opponent) or just plain personal preferrence calls for it), and no reason to really judge character-world interaction as anything but good. Am I off the mark on this one?

David R

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The Return of Heavy.....
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2006, 09:56:39 PM »
Quote from: beejazz
I see no need to limit it to the action between PCs, no reason to believe that action between the PCs is better or more real than interaction between PCs and NPCs (except in the most subjective sense, such as if a DM is working with un-fleshed-out un-interactive settings or cynical players whose suspension of disbelief relies on competition with another human being (never mind that the GM is also a human opponent) or just plain personal preferrence calls for it), and no reason to really judge character-world interaction as anything but good. Am I off the mark on this one?


No, you are pretty spot on. But, I do think, that in my case at least there is a friendly spirit of competition between the players and their interactions which each other.

I think one of the reason for this may be, that when players react to one another, they can  - and I think I said this before - be relatively sure, that they are coming into contact with another character whose goals are not constrained by his/her role as the GM (whatever that may involve) - both players are interacting on a level playing field as player to player. I haven't exactly thought this through, so the reasoning may be pretty dodgy :D

Regards,
David R