Forum > Design, Development, and Gameplay
The mysterious RPG market
Stoltverd:
So, I'm about to graduate from game design. I have to publish something and I have so many awesome drafts, mechanics and prototypes!
And yet... I can't start writing yet.
Did you know that there's almost no data about the PnP RPG market? And the information available is extremely outdated!
Would you help me probe the market? that will allow me to publish a better product and sell more; which means more products.
If you'd like to help me, you'd only need to answer 7 short questions. None of them are open! No need to lose time!
As a reward, you'll be able to check the data. Please share the form with people you know!
https://forms.gle/NJfmBUwgzVi7RNb97
As a thank you note and an incentive, please enjoy some old concept art I made years ago when making some worldbuilding. I hope the images spark your imagination, as they did for me!
Ps: You may see this exact same post in several forums. Please forgive me if that annoys you! I'm trying to get all the data I can.
Kneller:
I tried to answer the questions, but the options didn't cover how I would answer the questions. Also, why are you even worried about the market? Nobody really makes any decent money doing this (unless we're talking about the real pros like Wizards, and even then, they have other revenue streams). On top of that, tons of designers put their stuff out there for free. It's hard to beat that price point.
So, why not just make the game that you really want to make, maybe throw a pdf on drivethrurpg, and whatever you make is fun money?
1) Technically, I haven't bought an RPG in about 15 years or so. Between my current collection and all the free RPGs out there, nothing has come out that does better than what I already have. And being that I also design games myself, I can just drum up what I'd want to run instead of buying something. But hypothetically, for the sake of the question, were I to buy an RPG, I would pick a new one, depending on the "depth". I've seen a lot of self-published RPGs with sizeable gaps in the material that the designer is basically punting on to the group to figure it out. That's not the kind of thing I'd pay for.
2) I don't think this would fall under gameplay additions, but the actual design of the mechanics are the most important part. If all the bells and whistles are built in a lousy core, that's no good.
3) If I do buy a game, I prefer pdf. I don't need physical copies and pdfs are more cost effective. I have hobbies I spend real money on, but this isn't one of them.
6) None of them. Fantasy has been done to death. I honestly believe that there's no new ground to cover there. The technomagic one sounds a bit like like Shadowrun (or maybe FFIII/VI?). I'm kinda lukewarm on that.
7) The options were weird on this one. There were two fast and dirtys, two "simulationist" (though I suspect you mean rules-heavy here), the long term consequences thing seemed like a pretty fine point to focus on. And, the "sorta in between" wasn't very illuminating since it's a very relative concept.
Stoltverd:
--- Quote from: Kneller on March 25, 2021, 05:00:16 PM ---I tried to answer the questions, but the options didn't cover how I would answer the questions. Also, why are you even worried about the market? Nobody really makes any decent money doing this (unless we're talking about the real pros like Wizards, and even then, they have other revenue streams). On top of that, tons of designers put their stuff out there for free. It's hard to beat that price point.
So, why not just make the game that you really want to make, maybe throw a pdf on drivethrurpg, and whatever you make is fun money?
1) Technically, I haven't bought an RPG in about 15 years or so. Between my current collection and all the free RPGs out there, nothing has come out that does better than what I already have. And being that I also design games myself, I can just drum up what I'd want to run instead of buying something. But hypothetically, for the sake of the question, were I to buy an RPG, I would pick a new one, depending on the "depth". I've seen a lot of self-published RPGs with sizeable gaps in the material that the designer is basically punting on to the group to figure it out. That's not the kind of thing I'd pay for.
2) I don't think this would fall under gameplay additions, but the actual design of the mechanics are the most important part. If all the bells and whistles are built in a lousy core, that's no good.
3) If I do buy a game, I prefer pdf. I don't need physical copies and pdfs are more cost effective. I have hobbies I spend real money on, but this isn't one of them.
6) None of them. Fantasy has been done to death. I honestly believe that there's no new ground to cover there. The technomagic one sounds a bit like like Shadowrun (or maybe FFIII/VI?). I'm kinda lukewarm on that.
7) The options were weird on this one. There were two fast and dirtys, two "simulationist" (though I suspect you mean rules-heavy here), the long term consequences thing seemed like a pretty fine point to focus on. And, the "sorta in between" wasn't very illuminating since it's a very relative concept.
--- End quote ---
The question about why I worry about the market?
Mainly 2 reasons:
1. I want to use all my knowledge. Practice and grow my portfolio in all regards. I can't say no to an management job just because I prefer design for example. Worrying about the market is me practicing product design.
2. I'm not American. US$270 is more than most of my country earns on a monthly basis. "A lot of money" is completely relative.
I actually plan to release two versions of the product I end up making: One free, without art and without a couple of systems, and one with everything for money. Also, I'd like to do everything! But I have to take smart decisions.
--------------------------
1. I'm guessing you prefer simulationist games? Or what exactly do you mean by gaps? Because I'm guessing you mean not very clearly defined rules. Or rules that don't cover every aspect of gameplay.
2. Completely agree! I fell in love with the sine nomine games after reading a draft with no art!
6. I agree. Classic medieval fantasy has been donde to death. A fantasy game that intends to make any dent, should put a twist to it.
7. It's intended to be unclear... Well... More like undefined. Most people that choose "in between" points in a form, mean they don't feel strongly about one side or the other, or that they enjoy both.
Kneller:
There's got to be an easier way to make a few hundred bucks. One of my favorite people from the forums in the old days once said, "The best way to make a small fortune in game design is to start with a large fortune." Most people who self-publish make nothing. Those who do turn a few bucks on it, usually have a product they spent years crafting, as well as meticulously and extensively playtesting. Most people don't make enough to cover their copyright fees, assuming they even protect their work.
I wouldn't say I'm a "simulationist". I don't particularly like the term as it refers to a long since debunked game design theory that wasn't even actually a theory. I don't like D&D because there's far too much bookkeeping and (long story short) most of it is a waste of time. I also don't like faffy rules-light free form storytelling games. I like playing an actual game, but a game that isn't weighed down with bloat. This is largely why I started designing.
By "gaps", I mean:
1) What I'm (theoretically) likely to buy is really a new RPG with complete, well-designed mechanics and the relevant setting material to go with it. If it's not 100% complete, I'm not going to bother. But, the wording is a little unclear in your question. Is it not deep or is it complete? Consider books like Earthdawn or CODA's Lord of the Rings RPG. I wouldn't say they cover every nook and cranny of the setting, but there's more than enough there to build campaigns from a single book. I also think the deciding factor isn't between a new RPG or a setting book, but between an RPG that uses step dice vs. dice pools vs. etc. For example, I'd never buy a game that uses dice pools (I think it's mathematically a terrible resolution mechanic). I would never buy an RPG that's a fantasy heartbreaker (or a fantasy heartbreaker with a gimmick). But, the survey offers two options, neither of which I'm likely to buy.
2) There isn't an option for the mechanics, but maybe this is covered by gameplay additions. It wasn't clear.
6) There should have been a none of the above option. Forced choice survey items work for some things, but not a question like this. The way the question is set up, you can't account for the people who wouldn't buy any of those games, so it's not an accurate view of the market. Fantasy has been done so much to death, that even the twists have been done. Of the options you provided:
a) there's already a bunch of norse RPG games out there.
b) not sure what you mean by high risk/reward, but demihumans are ostracized in Dragon Age, magic is risky in Dark Sun. There's blood magic in Earthdawn that can be risky. I believe it also has marginalized races.
c) There's a handful of these out there, but I hope this isn't Arcanum the ttrpg? If so, good luck with that. Troika is now defunct so I'm not sure who has the IP. Half the guys ended up at InXile (good rep), the other half ended up at Obsidian (horrible rep), but then both were acquired by Microsoft (very protective of their IP).
d) Technomagic. Shadowrun? Numenera? Rifts? Titansgrave? Iron Kingdoms?
e) High classic fantasy sounds like there is no twist. But the morally ambiguous bit sounds a bit Dragon Age, maybe Exalted.
I'm not saying that there isn't any space in any of these sub-genres, but finding out where there is a niche that hasn't been covered (and is interesting) is challenging and more important than market research. If you have an idea for a game, and there's a close approximation already out there, then you're wasting your time (in terms of making any money or building a portfolio). If you have an original and compelling idea, with a solid system to run it, you don't need market research, it'll hold it's own (as much as a self-published ttrpg can in this hobby these days).
7) This one is a double barreled question, which should be avoided on surveys. If you broke it up into two questions (one being rules light/moderate/heavy, the other being combat consequences), it makes for a better survey. However, the first one is still problematic. If you ask people if they like rules light/moderate/heavy games, what people considering rules light/moderate/heavy is relative to the respondent. However, if you have those categories with popular examples, it would be a more reliable measure.
Stoltverd:
You gave me better counsel for the survey than 3 teachers at my uni :-
That's great! Thank you! Kind of sad in some ways, but great.
I was SO afraid of making forced choices... I tried to divide fantasy in the subgenres I know and that sell relevant numbers, but you are absolutely right... That isn't the impression the survey gives.
1. AH! This is my favorite topic! I have several core mechanics from past mini games I've designed that I'd love to try, let me list a few:
- Both you and the GM throw. If you get a higher roll, you succeed. If you get a 20, you can describe how the action goes. If the GM rolls higher, you can either fail or succeed with complications. If you roll a 1, you fail AND get an extra complication.
- Algorithms as actions! This is the one I liked the most until recently. The idea is that every player and mob has "actions". The actions happen as soon as the conditions are met. I thought it was super innovative until recently, when I was told it's extremely similar to a game called "Apocalypse World".
- 2 dices. 1 dice is too swingy, more than 2 dices and that becomes a pool, which I hate just like you do. 2 dices however allow me to statistically incline the odds to one side or the other (depending on the target) and the players will still feel there's a huge random factor.
Now to clarify: When I say "not deep" I mean that since it's only one book, lore can't be too defined like in D&D, rules can't be explained with several examples or accompanied by much flavor etc
Please keep posting! You're making me realize many things!
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