Quote from: Mr. GC;598205Some consumable use is fine, and you are absolutely right about the minimum stat requirements. However you mentioned a replacement caster - meaning every time you'd use a spell in standard D&D you'd use an overpriced, ineffective consumable instead (because most attack spells don't work well as wands and scrolls). And that'd result in you burning up thousands of gold per fight.

I forgot to mention the thing about consumable spam because honestly, I didn't think anyone was going to be smart enough here to even find that standard, but wrong tactic.

I mean, I saw that right away. The first thing I latched onto was a full party of warlocks with maximum spammage. But that would be cheating, as you say.
He's not going to be a full-on replacement caster. Eldritch blast is very low damage, but it's still spammable damage that gets around DR pretty readily. But he will handle the things casters often do--buffing saves, combating invisibility and spell-loving enemies, and throwing out the occasional aoe save-or-die if things get really nasty.
He can, absolutely, RAW, spam dispels 9600 rounds per day. And he'll do it if we fight invisible levitating debuffing Evards-casting enemies. I think this party is pretty resistant to casters. It's much more the giant stats on melee guys that I'm worried about.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598205Some consumable use is fine, and you are absolutely right about the minimum stat requirements. However you mentioned a replacement caster - meaning every time you'd use a spell in standard D&D you'd use an overpriced, ineffective consumable instead (because most attack spells don't work well as wands and scrolls). And that'd result in you burning up thousands of gold per fight.

I forgot to mention the thing about consumable spam because honestly, I didn't think anyone was going to be smart enough here to even find that standard, but wrong tactic.

To quote Murphy's Laws of Combat:  "If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid."  If your rules limit the casters available, consumable magic becomes the next best option.  At the level they're playing, even a second-level scroll is not extravagant, if it wins the fight.

You are right that consumables are best used for utility and defensive functions.

Any particular 'contingency scrolls' you recommend? I know what spells are traditionally strong, but I'm not sure how well they translate to consumables.

Scroll of Evard's does seem just as good as regular Evard's as a panic button / instant encounter win. It's expensive though.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598217Any particular 'contingency scrolls' you recommend? I know what spells are traditionally strong, but I'm not sure how well they translate to consumables.

Scroll of Evard's does seem just as good as regular Evard's as a panic button / instant encounter win. It's expensive though.

If you have someone who can use them reliably (as class spells or through UMD), there are several spells that come to mind off the top of my head:

mage armor+shield = better AC against incorporeal touch or weird "take off your armor for this place" encounters.

web or entangle =  Keep foes off your squishies.

comprehend languages = You only use it once in a while, so why tie up a spell slot?

true strike (often on a wand) = makes a wimp with a whip into Mr. Disarm
(team it with unseen servant to grab the dropped item and play keep away)

lesser planar ally = A win button when you have time to use it

fly = If a potion, it can be awfully expensive for 7th level characters, but almost guarantees that your RageChargePounce barbarian gets to use his schtick.

Looking over the characters, I still see a heavy emphasis on defense, compromising their offensive functions.  "Hitters" at that level should have a magic weapon, and also need a way to make their other weapons function as magic in case they run into odd DR (oil of magic weapon or a scroll will do fine).

Quote from: Sir Wulf;598222Looking over the characters, I still see a heavy emphasis on defense, compromising their offensive functions.  "Hitters" at that level should have a magic weapon, and also need a way to make their other weapons function as magic in case they run into odd DR (oil of magic weapon or a scroll will do fine).

I am _very_ concerned about defense. Maybe I am overemphasizing it, but it seems like staying alive is more important than hitting incredibly hard. The challenge is to survive after all. Even if I have to go full-on Team Glacier, it seems safer than being aggressive.
I will see if I can fit +1 bonuses into Akali's build, but I'm not sure what to cut. Anything else in particular you think I should switch out? I can't just add things; I have a pretty low price ceiling.
I don't think I will have issues with closing the gap, as Akali can go ranged without too much trouble and Poppy can fly.
Shield, web, and magic weapon seem solid. I will see how much they all cost.
Spamming shatter into people's weapons seems just as effective as disarming, and I can already do that at no cost.
I think there is either a feat or an item that can let me use a warlock's eldritch blast to entangle. I'll see if I can find it.

Thanks for the help. I'll finish editing the sheets when I have time. Any other suggestions? Any particular way to allocate Akali's skill points optimally?

This is going out to everyone in the thread, by the way. I want to win this thing, but I'll take all the help I can get.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598235Any other suggestions? Any particular way to allocate Akali's skill points optimally?

This is going out to everyone in the thread, by the way. I want to win this thing, but I'll take all the help I can get.

Personally I was just going to create a fun character and have a bit of a lark without caring much about the outcome.  No forum argument of this sort in the history of the Internet has ever resulted in anyone "winning" anything, more usually it results in all sides claiming victory simultaneously because their opponents are misinterpreting the results (and of course vice-versa).  For example, if your team wins then "oh, that's only because of all the optimisation you did to make the characters survivable" (i.e. what you're looking for suggestions on just now) "you were supposed to make unoptimised characters", and contrariwise it doesn't matter if he wins because he set up the rules and is refereeing it (designing a scenario and asking an objective third party to GM it would make more sense).

So I say, hang the sense of it, make a bunch of XL7 peasants and just wade in!

Then claim victory by virtue of having fun.  It makes as much sense as the argumentative approach and is easier on your blood pressure.  Life's too short for flamewars. ;-)

I'm personally not in this for the argument. My friends have claimed that a properly-built, properly-played party of guys in these tiers can hold their own against correct CR encounters. I don't know if that's true, but this seems a solid place to test it.

Of course, since I've spent over a dozen hours working on guys, I have gotten a little invested in them winning. But it's still an experiment at heart, to me. I know there is a giant ****storm of an argument that generated this thread, but I'm really not interested in that at all.

I'm a bit unclear on the flamewar myself (and have little desire to educate myself on the matter), but I think the term "basketweaver" implies your characters are supposed to have abilities that don't directly relate to combat, such as Craft(basketweaving) or somesuch.  Even if his majesty hasn't mentioned it yet, he certainly will in the event of your guys surviving. ;-)

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598208I mean, I saw that right away. The first thing I latched onto was a full party of warlocks with maximum spammage. But that would be cheating, as you say.
He's not going to be a full-on replacement caster. Eldritch blast is very low damage, but it's still spammable damage that gets around DR pretty readily. But he will handle the things casters often do--buffing saves, combating invisibility and spell-loving enemies, and throwing out the occasional aoe save-or-die if things get really nasty.
He can, absolutely, RAW, spam dispels 9600 rounds per day. And he'll do it if we fight invisible levitating debuffing Evards-casting enemies. I think this party is pretty resistant to casters. It's much more the giant stats on melee guys that I'm worried about.

I won't comment on how well that'd work beyond not as well as you think. Being consistently weak is still being weak. And any damage dealer that is remotely concerned about DR has many worse problems.

Quote from: Sir Wulf;598209To quote Murphy's Laws of Combat:  "If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid."  If your rules limit the casters available, consumable magic becomes the next best option.  At the level they're playing, even a second-level scroll is not extravagant, if it wins the fight.

You are right that consumables are best used for utility and defensive functions.

Burning 150 gold to win a fight, yeah you'll get much more than that back. Using several hundred gold in one fight? Questionable, even if it technically works. Thousands? Clearly missing the point of the SAD, as such a party, even if their consumable novaing got them through encounters would still bankrupt themselves in short order.

Quote from: Sir Wulf;598221If you have someone who can use them reliably (as class spells or through UMD), there are several spells that come to mind off the top of my head:

mage armor+shield = better AC against incorporeal touch or weird "take off your armor for this place" encounters.

web or entangle =  Keep foes off your squishies.

comprehend languages = You only use it once in a while, so why tie up a spell slot?

true strike (often on a wand) = makes a wimp with a whip into Mr. Disarm
(team it with unseen servant to grab the dropped item and play keep away)

lesser planar ally = A win button when you have time to use it

fly = If a potion, it can be awfully expensive for 7th level characters, but almost guarantees that your RageChargePounce barbarian gets to use his schtick.

I'm going to interrupt you and saying that getting an angel to adventure for you is a concession of defeat, else the gimps could do it themselves.

Quote from: Sir Wulf;598222Looking over the characters, I still see a heavy emphasis on defense, compromising their offensive functions.  "Hitters" at that level should have a magic weapon, and also need a way to make their other weapons function as magic in case they run into odd DR (oil of magic weapon or a scroll will do fine).

He does have the right of it. Characters of those classes have nearly no defenses to speak of, and what little they get is pure gear. Fighters, Barbarians etc are glass cannons and all of the tank classes are not allowed. He's trying to get around the must spam for DPS race. It only works to a point, but it's more likely to get him through than hoping the entire party beats all enemies on Init 4 consecutive times.

That said, making your weapon magical does not consume a great deal of resources.

And I'm just ignoring the other guy because he's just fucking around and trying to waste time. Which is fine, but he's not wasting my time. He shouldn't waste yours either.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598294I'm going to interrupt you and saying that getting an angel to adventure for you is a concession of defeat, else the gimps could do it themselves.

Notice the implication here: If it works, then a basketweaver can't do it. Mr. GC is admitting that his definition is completely circular and that the exercise will be rigged and/or any successful attempt discredited.

QuoteBurning 150 gold to win a fight, yeah you'll get much more than that back. Using several hundred gold in one fight? Questionable, even if it technically works. Thousands? Clearly missing the point of the SAD, as such a party, even if their consumable novaing got them through encounters would still bankrupt themselves in short order.

The amount of consumables you can burn up in a fight is actually a known quantity if you actually worship at the altar of the Perfect Encounter Day.

In the case of 7th level characters, we know that they need to gain 8,000 gp of wealth during the 13 encounters that will take them to 8th level (DMG, pg. 135). We also know that an EL 7 encounter will give 2,600 gp in treasure (DMG, pg. 135), or 650 gp of treasure per PC.

13 x 650 gp = 8,450 gp
8,450 - 8,000 gp = 450 gp / 13 encounters = 35 gp per encounter

Across a standard party, therefore, you could expend no more than 140 gp in consumables per encounter.

Mr. GC's figures here are correct here.

(Note: The math here is cheated because I'm not adjusting across the full spread of potential encounter ELs, but I don't think it will make a significant difference in this case.)

EDIT: Nope. I was wrong. It does make a significant difference if you take expected encounter spread into consideration: Total treasure received per character would be 11,470 gp for 7th level; which is a surplus of 3,470 gp; which means a party of 4 would have 1,068 gp to spend in consumables per encounter.

EDIT: It gets better. If you use Mr. GC's incorrect calculations for the distribution of encounters, total treasure received per character would be 12,500 gp for 7th level; which is a surplus of 4,500 gp; which means a party of 4 would have 1,384 gp to spend in consumables per encounter.

So when he says "hundreds" would be questionable, it turns out he's actually dead wrong. He's still right to say that a party can't blow thousands in consumables in every single encounter (but you could do that every other encounter and still meet expectations).

Oh, get real. Do you honestly think the basket weavers admitting we can't do that shit, so they get a horde of angels to do it for them proves anything other than that they could not fucking do that shit?

Commoners are not weak because Candle of Invocation herpityderp!

Or you should remove your pants from your head immediately, because you are a retard.

Also, your math fails because it assumes 100% of all drops will be directly used by the characters. This is never the case. Most of that stuff is vendor trash, or is stuff you could use if you didn't already have equal or better. In either case you sell it and get half. As this happens for most of the drops (nearly all of them if using random loot, a high percent if enemies use items they can actually use) strictly speaking, you are lucky if you have any consumable allowance at all.

But rather than try and work out a hard and fast rule I'm just going to point out that you should stick to sustainable strategies. Moderation is key. A Mass Conviction at the dungeon door and a few others is fine. If your action every round is to throw money at the problem... yeah.

Okay, I had a great idea for an entire party, so if the current contender has to drop out I can take over from him.

I'm kinda disappointed nobody has flamed me yet, did I put my asbestos underwear on for nothing? :<

Quote from: greyknight;598321Okay, I had a great idea for an entire party, so if the current contender has to drop out I can take over from him.

I'm kinda disappointed nobody has flamed me yet, did I put my asbestos underwear on for nothing? :<

I figured you were just lost and looking for the other thread.. give us time and I'm sure we can oblige.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598196Alright, here is Soraka's basic sheet. She will keep my HPs at maximum and fight save-or-dies and burst damage with her nonsense. I have also updated Akali's sheet (here) to include your suggestions. She was originally also a dragonborn, but I decided I liked the whisper gnome raicla features more, and meant to give her a bow but forgot.
Warlock sheet and tweaks to Poppy, coming up!

EDIT: Here is Victor, team captain. I still need to spend all the party's remaining wealth on charged magic items for him; he's going to be a fake caster. Any suggestions for items? I am ABSOLUTELY sure about a wand of Tyche's Touch and a couple scrolls of Mass Conviction, but nothing else.

Akali - the mithril armour is a bit expensive; if you say trade down to a +1 chain shirt (1250) you lose 1 AC but gain about 4000 GP, enough to grab a +1 ring of protection (buying back the AC) and a +1 weapon, say.


Soraka's -  I'd suggest maybe buying a rank in Tumble cross-class, since you're lightly armoured and have a Decent enough Dex, and it can't be used untrained.

I'm not sure about the exotic weapon proficiency - the damage output is negligible at d8+1, and since you only have a single attack each round anyway, its not that much better than your basic Small light crossbow at d6+1.

The healer no shields limitation is a bit harsh, if you could figure out some way to add on a shield bonus to AC would be good - maybe UMD and a Shield wand, or a couple of potions.

Or if you did have a spare feat, you could throw in Leadership and pick up a fighter bodyguard for the healer with a tower shield and Shieldmate/Improved Shieldmate from Miniatures' handbook for a +2 or +3 to AC (I forget) - this might bolster damage for the party slightly as well, though a cohort would be squishier than a real party member.

Victor - as far as warlocks go, have you seen the Eldritch Glaive power in Dragon Magic? Reach weapon that lets you full attack with your eldritch blast.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598316Also, your math fails because it assumes 100% of all drops will be directly used by the characters.

Note that even if we assume that (a) the PCs never get any coins, gems, or other trade goods in their treasure; (b) 100% of the dropped treasure is useless and must be sold at 50% of value; and (c) the PCs never do any magic item crafting for themselves you would still be dead wrong in saying that "hundreds" would be questionable.

So while you're correct that the actual figures involved will vary based on actual play (which I recognize is a big step for you), the reality is that you can't budge the numbers enough even with absurd assumptions to change the practical conclusion.

QuoteOh, get real. Do you honestly think the basket weavers admitting we can't do that shit, so they get a horde of angels to do it for them proves anything other than that they could not fucking do that shit?

I think your bias speaks for itself. And I think the combination of that with your established willingness to rule out legitimate tactics ex post facto doesn't require elaboration.