[Storm Knights] Any Linguists On the Board?

[1of3]

(Assuming I can implement 1of3's "all words can be verbs or nouns, as the situation warrants" suggestion.)

Been done before. Without anyone planning for it, too.

Pitch or tone can work fine. There is one think, you need to decide on: What happens if there is only argument in the sentence, that is, what if the verb is intransitive?

In English we use the same forms for the more active argument in transitive sentences and for the only one in intransitive sentences. We call that argument a subject or nominative case. E.g.

I see him.
I walk.

Such languages are called accusative languages or nominative-accusative languages.


Other languages (around 40% of the world's) do it the way round. The would say:

I see him.
Me walk.

So the more passive part in the transitive sentence and the only argument in the intransitive sentence are in the same case. These are called ergative languages or absolutive-ergative languages.

Absolutive is the case of the agent in the transitive sentence, ergative the case of the patient in the transitive and the single argument in the intransitive sentence.


Those two types are common. They manage to tell agent and patient apart where need be, and keep the rest simple. There are some languages that are more precise.

If there is only one argument, it gets either case depending on whether the argument is more of a doer or more of an object. Those are called active languages.


There is some more stuff you could do. For example, perception might generally be backwards (not "I see it" but "It appears to me"). Forces of nature (weather verbs) often have yet other rules. (That's why I said, those are fun.)

[John Morrow]

What about pitch? Normal for verb, high for object, low for subject?

It would work, but are you ever going to speak it?  

Pitch doesn't have to be simply tones but can include tone shifts (Chinese, Vietnamese) and tone accenting (Japanese).  In Japanese the tone shifts to mark accenting, which is done by stressing the syllable in English.  So you don't have to tone mark everything, though you could certainly do that if you want it to be a bit alien.  You could simply have starting and ending tones or tone shift markers.  If you want to play with tone, you should take a quick look at how tones work in Chinese for possible inspiration.

[Daddy Warpig]

Been done before. Without anyone planning for it, too.

My point wasn't "it can't be done", but rather "how would you do that?"

It's not a contradiction, but a request for more information.

What would it look like, how would it function, etc.

[1of3]

My point wasn't "it can't be done", but rather "how would you do that?"

There is not much to be done, really. English is closer to it than other languages that I can speak for instance. Instant conversion of nouns to verbs is quite common in English. (Calvin and Hobbes would say: "Verbing weirds languages.")

The question is: How can you really be sure that nouns and verbs are distinct classes of words, instead of being one class that can be used as both nouns or verbs in sentences?

Of course, words of different classes might look differently. When I invent a verb like "verelefantieren" in German, people could look at it and know it's a verb because there is quite a lot of verb stuff in it (ver-ieren). English is different. If I make up a word "blump" you couldn't say, whether it's "a blump" or "a blump thing" or "blump someone".

Now, just imagine you can do this with almost every content word and you're good to go.

Of course, you might ask what "to tree" actually means, when you know that "tree" is the noun for those kinds of plants that grow real big and have wooden stems and all. If you do it in a regular manner, you could get something like Lojban or predicate logic. In Lojban, for example, "to tree" would be "be a tree", "to father" would be "be a father to somebody". Natural languages will often not be so regular. Sometimes the noun is what you use to do the action, sometime it's what you create with the action, sometimes it's the actor.

So let's stick with your word "tant". That could be "serve" as in "a person who serves"/"persons who serve" or "to serve regularly". "resk" could be "to be warm" or "something/somebody warm".

[Daddy Warpig]

It would work, but are you ever going to speak it?

No. God no. Never, never. No. I hope not.

So, to synthesize the suggestions from the thread:

1. The language forms words by agglutinating shorter words.

2. All words are assumed to be verbs, unless marked otherwise.

3. The differences between the noun and verb form are marked by pitches, or pitch shifts, as is the difference between the subject and object of a sentence.

4. When used descriptively (adjective or adverb), the descriptive word is agglutinated to the described word. (This is part of #1, I think, I just wanted to make it explicit.)

5. The language is word order insensitive. The pitches serve to signify VSO order.

The practical upshot of this is that writing the language is fairly easy, just take the correct words and arrange them as you like. Then, translate your meaning into a clear English sentence. So long as the translation is given directly after, it's easy to understand.

This means there aren't a lot of complicated rules for writing the language, a big plus. A lot of complicated rules for speaking, but that's alright in an entirely oral language.

(Question: Under the above rules, can I still use ia to mean or ? Does that make it a tense? Would that mean that I need other specific tense syllables?)

EDIT: Re tenses

How about a generic present (ia), past (iad), future (iak). Then they distinguish between, say present perfect and present continuing by pitch shifts.

[1of3]

Instead of present, ia could also signify progressive.

There are basically three main areas that languages use to modify their verbs: Tense, aspect and mode.

Tense: From my point of view, when does it happen?
Aspect: Looking at the action itself, in what state is it?
Mood: How "real" is the statement?

Those are also called TAM markers. Not all languages require marking all of these, and sometimes some combinations are not possible.


Tense: Past, present, future. Or past, non-past. Or far-past, past, present, future, far-future. Or whatever you want to make up.

Aspect: Is it going on at the moment (progressive)? Is it over (perfective)? Is it just starting (incohative)? And so on. There are several more, and you can easily invent your own. Personally I'm very fond of should-be-over-but-is-still-going-on.

Mood: English has indicative, subjunctive and imperative, you can do much more, if you like. Seperate markers for wishes, thought experiments. Some languages make a difference in statements between seen-it-myself and heard-it-from-other-people.


Also politeness might end up in verb forms. Or whatever you think your saurians should totally take into account, whenever they form a sentence.

[Daddy Warpig]

Instead of present,

That was a cogent and clear explanation of some complex concepts. Thank you for breaking it down for me.

Tense: Past, present, future. Or past, non-past. Or far-past, past, present, future, far-future. Or whatever you want to make up.

Nothing ever dies on Takta Ker. It is the Living Land. When a creature's (or person's) life force/spirit leaves its body, it enters the Web of Life.

This is an invisible net of psychic energy that connects all living things in the cosm. (And, in this cosm, even rocks and minerals are alive. Again, the Living Land.) The still-embodied can communicate with those who have recently joined the Web.

There is also the Deep Web, where the "gods" (Edeia Ker) live. As time goes on, disembodied spirits move into the Deep Web, where they can no longer be communicated with.

So, tenses:

• Unremembered Past (Things only those in the Deep Web can relate first hand. Anyone telling of such things right now is repeating hearsay.)

• Past

• Present

• Future

All tenses have specific syllables.

Aspect: Is it going on at the moment (progressive)? Is it over (perfective)? Is it just starting (incohative)? And so on. There are several more, and you can easily invent your own. Personally I'm very fond of should-be-over-but-is-still-going-on.

I'm sure there are many, but the most unique ones are:

• Envisioned Future. (Anything the Gods have prophesied about, and so is certain to happen at some future date. "Envisioned" because these come as visions to Optants.)

• Unenvisioned Future. (Anything that may happen in the future, which hasn't been prophesied.)

Technically, "envisioned" and "unenvisioned" could be applied to present, past, or forgotten past events. In practice, they are mainly used to refer to that which has not yet happened.

Like many other things, aspects are indicated tonally.

ia could also signify progressive.

If I understand correctly, I have been using it to mean "present continuous". "Ia" generally means just that (it's the default present tense meaning), though other aspects of the present tense can be indicated tonally.

Mood: English has indicative, subjunctive and imperative

I'll have to think on those some more.

[1of3]

I'm sure there are many, but the most unique ones are:

• Envisioned Future. (Anything the Gods have prophesied about, and so is certain to happen at some future date. "Envisioned" because these come as visions to Optants.)

• Unenvisioned Future. (Anything that may happen in the future, which hasn't been prophesied.)

Technically, "envisioned" and "unenvisioned" could be applied to present, past, or forgotten past events. In practice, they are mainly used to refer to that which has not yet happened.

Like many other things, aspects are indicated tonally.

You might want to denote the tones in writing in some manner. Three capital letters in superscript might be considered classic.

As for envisioned/uenvisioned, I would rather consider those mood. That distinction might be moot, however. The name TAM is used because these three concepts are often inseperable in a given language.

If I understand correctly, I have been using it to mean "present continuous". "Ia" generally means just that (it's the default present tense meaning), though other aspects of the present tense can be indicated tonally.

I'm not sure there is a "default aspect" in English present tense. Compare Wiki.

[Daddy Warpig]

I'm not sure there is a "default aspect" in English present tense. Compare Wiki.

It's the default meaning in Edeinos. A nuetral pitch "ia" indicates present continuing. Other aspects are indicated with varying tones.

(And, as a first guess, most moods are indicated by adding syllables to the verb. "Command" has meaning by itself, as a noun, so it can be added as a modifier to the verb form of another word. Command-run would be the imperative mood.)

[John Morrow]

If you are still using tone, you might want to look at the Wikipedia article on linguistic tones/pitch.  It's fairly comprehensive and worth a look.

[Daddy Warpig]

If you are still using tone, you might want to look at the Wikipedia article on linguistic tones/pitch.  It's fairly comprehensive and worth a look.

I'm in the middle of revising the language writeup, based on yours and 1of3's feedback. If you like, you can check out some of the recent revisions (still in progress, obviously): http://goo.gl/RYpGI

My current project, in connection with the revision, involves scouring all the available material for names/words, and trying to assemble a list of the common sounds (as you suggested earlier): getting a list of the consonant/vowel sounds and a list of common sounds.

As for tones, this is something I put together the other day to try and explain some of the differences of edeinos culture and language.

EDIT: In retrospect, the following is a bad idea. Interesting, but it fails to capture the feel of the Living Land. It might suit an alien race from a sci-fi setting, but not the primitive eidenos. So, it won't be part of the language, or language writeup.

Performing and Experiencing the Edeinos Language

In Storm Knights, Edeinos culture is based around action and experience. By religious and cultural tenets, worshippers are encouraged to engage in many different experiences, so they have tales to relate and experiences to share with Lanala.

For the edeinos, speaking is one such experience, and their language is far more active than most. In fact, Edenal (the name of the language) is performed, more than spoken.

The edeinos language has three components: spoken words, tones and pitches, and bodily movements. Basic information is conveyed verbally, and shifts in tone or pitch, or bodily movements and gestures, modify the basic meanings.

The language is tonal, often describe as sing-song. Just as English has a natural rhythm, and speech that takes the language's rhythm into account is more pleasing to hear (and writing which does so more pleasing to read), edeinos wording is chosen such that the tones form harmonies or tunes. From a young age, edeinos learn to sing their spoken words.

Many movements are a formal part of edeinos language. Such movements including changes in head position, movement of the arms, shifting their upper body, placement or movement of feet and tail, even shifts in position, closer or further away from listeners. These movements are also chosen to work in concert with the spoken words and melodies of the language.

All three parts of the language work together to communicate the meaning, but they also work together to form a pleasing performance. Edeinos literally perform their language.

Edeinos language is sung, it is danced. Just to talk in Edenal is a performance, and listening means experiencing that performance.

Two edeinos speaking together is like a duet. Agreement with each other is harmonious, disagreement dissonant. You can often hear the mood of an edeinos conversation.

In tribal debates, the harmonies clash and the movements are harsh and abrupt. Over time, as a consensus is reached, the melodies begin to form counterpoints, begin to come together in a pleasing whole, and the movements of individual speakers synchronize. A tribe in agreement is like a ball, where the whole group is dancing together.

Edeinos are an active, driven, passionate race (as all Jakatts become, once they convert). Even their language is an experience, an activity for all involved. It is not, and cannot be passive.

Details

There are three methods of conversing in the edeinos language: Conversational, Formal, and Ceremonial. Conversational is the default mode, it is used for most things. Formal mode is used for matters of severe import. Ceremonial mode is used when praying.

In casual conversation, gestures are muted, often very subtle. In Formal conversation, these are larger, more pronounced, more obvious.

During Ceremonial speech (such as praying, for example), edeinos gestures are large, heavily emphasized, and the movements cover a wide area.

In Conversational mode, those not familiar with the tongue may notice the gestures and different tones, but may not appreciate the effort and artistry put into the communication. But in full-blown Ceremonial speech, they cannot fail to notice that the language is a performance.

For a worshipper of Life, everything is an experience to be savored. Even the simple act of speaking to one another is transformed into something active, something artistic, something that gives joy.

[John Morrow]

My current project, in connection with the revision, involves scouring all the available material for names/words, and trying to assemble a list of the common sounds (as you suggested earlier): getting a list of the consonant/vowel sounds and a list of common sounds.

I have some software, written in Perl (not necessarily great Perl, since I hacked it together for my own use) that analyzes the sounds in word lists and then can use that analysis to put new words together.  The larger the list of words, the better it works.  Let me know if you are interested in either (A) the software or (B) running your list through it to get an analysis.  What it does is breaks up words into consonant and vowel clusters, how frequently they happen, and what the valid following vowel or consonant clusters are.  It was designed to produce a high percentage of usable random words, which is a big problem that many random word generators have.

The edeinos language has three components: spoken words, tones and pitches, and bodily movements. Basic information is conveyed verbally, and shifts in tone or pitch, or bodily movements and gestures, modify the basic meanings.

If you haven't already read it, Harry Harrison's book West of Eden might be worth a look.  The book is an alternate history with evolved dinosaur lizard people and their language includes body motions as well as sounds.  One of the plot points in the books involves the language and how the lizards use it.

[Daddy Warpig]

Edenal is literally a musical language. Each syllable is sung with a tone, and the tonal shift between syllables indicates several things. Whether the tone was higher, lower, and so forth all has informational content.

It isn't just that tones are necessary with a language that is word-order insensitive. It's that being word-order insensitive allows the language to be flexible musically. You chose the order of syllables based on what tune they will form when sung.

Agglutination comes into this as well. The language is based on encoding ever more information into a single word: tall-(as)-tree-spider-(with)-scarlet-abdomen-(that)-hunts-(from)-hiding. That would be one word (the parenthesized relationships established by tonal shifts or being implied by association).

By each word being capable of arbitrary or quite long lengths, it turns a word into a melody or tune. You get more musicality from longer words than from shorter words.

A flexible word order allows the speaker to form enjoyable melodic words, and a longer word length allows for more complex tunes within a single word. Both of these aspects play into a musical language.

EDIT:

So, what does it sound like? It varies according to the impression the speaker intends to convey.

A rebuke will be low pitched, and ominous (The Imperial March). A religious story will be solemn and respectful (like a hymn). A story of loss may be dirge-like. A story of a happy event will be upbeat.

Music evokes emotion in the listener. And edienos are skilled at chosing their words, pitches, and word order to evoke the desired mood.

In many ways, speaking in Edenal is like Jazz Improv. You form the melodies and tunes as you go along, off the top of your head, and suit them to the mood you intend to evoke. Which is why agglutination and word-order insensitivity are key aspects of the language: they allow for a wider range of musical expression.

And the more expressive the speech, the more evocative its performance, the more it meets the Edeinos cultural and religious imperative: to act and to experience, then to relate those to others.

(Yes, John, I'd be very interested in either option, WRT your Perl script. Once I've chosen the consonants and vowels, and built acceptable syllables, then transliterated the extant words into those, I'd be happy to have you run it through the script, or to run the script myself. Whichever you're more comfortable with.)

[John Morrow]

(Yes, John, I'd be very interested in either option, WRT your Perl script. Once I've chosen the consonants and vowels, and built acceptable syllables, then transliterated the extant words into those, I'd be happy to have you run it through the script, or to run the script myself. Whichever you're more comfortable with.)

I sent you the Perl scripts to the address in your signature.

[Daddy Warpig]

I sent you the Perl scripts to the address in your signature.

Thanks, very much.