Quote from: Benoist;406287Well, starting with the fact you actually *could* play a spellcaster per se without being an Istari yourself...

In addition to the 'evil' spellcasters mentioned by Colonel Hardisson (the mortal sorcerers who went on to become the Mouth of Sauron, the Witchking, and others), there were 'good' folks like 'Malbeth the Seer', who made numerous prophesies, including those concerning the fall of Arthedain (it was because of Malbeth's prediction that the last king of Arthedain was named 'Arvedui', which means 'last king'; the prophesy implied that either Arthedain would fall or be reunited with Gondor -- both of which turned out to be correct, just a 1000 years apart).  Numenoreans in the Second Age could communicate mentally with their horses.  Weapons of 'Westernesse' (of Numenorean and Dunedain creation) seem to have mystical or special powers against the undead (wights, etc.).  I'm sure that there other examples of Numenorean/Dunedain 'special abilities' or 'magic' that I'm forgetting.

With respect to non-Dunedain/Numenoreans, we have the Beornings, with their ability to shift from human form into bear form.  The Woses seem to have certain shamanic abilities (the 'pukel men'), but that is only hinted at (as far as I am aware).

The dwarves in The Hobbit cast runes on their treasure to protect it.  They possess many wondrous items (the Arkenstone, etc.).

My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities.  However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari.  (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)

I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms.  I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in The Hobbit than The LotR).

Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would be damn boring, at least for me.  (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406261I actually own a copy of that. I got it new, and was stunned to see it on the store shelf when it appeared. I think it's decent enough, but I'd want to rework some of it.

You're right that it's not perfect.  (Among other things, it suffers from having too many spellcasters and magic items, like most of ICE's Middle-earth modules.  Bit that's easy to fix.)

The essentials, though, are quite good IMO.  An epic quest, with lots of twists and options, and a decent nemesis.  Like you, I think that some things should be changed, but overall a good basis for a 4th Age campaign.

Another 'idea seed' for a Fourth Age campaign:

QuoteIn a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two [Istari -- i.e., the 'Blue Wizards']," since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth.  "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were.  What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and magic traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

(Note 3, page 418, from the essay "The Essay" in Unfinished Tales, bold added by me.)

Actualy, the Middle Earth (Third Age) never seemed too much "High Fantasy" to me, at last in the RPG sense. Let me explain: it's a setting with VERY few "personal" magic, where only a handfull of legendary individuals can use the arcane forces; same for magic items, there are only a few, rare and dangerous to use; ¿Monsters? Scarce, hidden and very powerful.

I always think the Third Age as a dark and gritty era of fallen kingdoms, vast wilderness and lost treasures, with an epic past and a uncertain future. Despite the "good vs evil" theme and the epic main story of TLotR, it works fine as a setting for Sword & Sorcery adventures for me (not all S&S has to be about thieves, barbarians and exotic realms ) Moreso the Fourth Age, i think.

Quote from: Akrasia;406329In addition to the 'evil' spellcasters mentioned by Colonel Hardisson (the mortal sorcerers who went on to become the Mouth of Sauron, the Witchking, and others), there were 'good' folks like 'Malbeth the Seer', who made numerous prophesies, including those concerning the fall of Arthedain (it was because of Malbeth's prediction that the last king of Arthedain was named 'Arvedui', which means 'last king'; the prophesy implied that either Arthedain would fall or be reunited with Gondor -- both of which turned out to be correct, just a 1000 years apart).  Numenoreans in the Second Age could communicate mentally with their horses.  Weapons of 'Westernesse' (of Numenorean and Dunedain creation) seem to have mystical or special powers against the undead (wights, etc.).  I'm sure that there other examples of Numenorean/Dunedain 'special abilities' or 'magic' that I'm forgetting.

With respect to non-Dunedain/Numenoreans, we have the Beornings, with their ability to shift from human form into bear form.  The Woses seem to have certain shamanic abilities (the 'pukel men'), but that is only hinted at (as far as I am aware).

The dwarves in The Hobbit cast runes on their treasure to protect it.  They possess many wondrous items (the Arkenstone, etc.).

My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities.  However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari.  (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)

I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms.  I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in The Hobbit than The LotR).

Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would be damn boring, at least for me.  (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)

I do think it is worth fretting over.  Akrasia, your points are very well taken and all of this is critical...and worth fretting over.  

Some of the points you make are really the focal ones to making sure the game feels the right way.

* A large use on artificing for magic...much magic is placed into items.  
--see morgul knives, as well as the items of westernesse,
--see Glamdring and Ocrist, from Gondolin
--See Moon runes, from the Hobbit.
--See Ithildin, the mithril ink used to create star and moon lettters.
--I'm now remembering a dozen more.  One that really sticks out is the 'Silent Watchers' in the tower of Cirith Ungol, as both guards and with their power over the wills of others.

* Prophecy/augury used regularly.  Magic of insight.
* the presense of the Wraithworld, which we got mostly from Frodo when he was wearing the ring.  Based on how Glorfindel appears there, I see it as more of a positive and negative energy plane (to put in into game terms).  I think this is aprt of all magic, as Gandalf mentions a few times that he is trying to avoid much magic as he knows it will be percieved by others.
*more traditional spells are mentioned, and in terms that indicate more users than merely the Istari/Maiar.   The following infers human and orc magic, as well as elven.
"Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took', said Gandalf. 'But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.

'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."
 
as well as
""I could think of nothing to do but put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength."
 
This does an excellent job quoting same.

Quote from: LordVreeg;406341'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."

Wow, now that's a quote I'd totally overlooked. Good catch, and thanks for the link!

Quote from: Akrasia;406329My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities.  However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari.  (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)

I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms.  I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in The Hobbit than The LotR).

Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would be damn boring, at least for me.  (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)

All good points, but that is it again - we're speaking of special traits of these characters that legends talk about as some sort of "magic", or abilities that were intrinsic to the individuals in questions. It's not like "casting spells" and such. It's more like gifts, or special abilities coming from who these people are, rather than stuff they learned in tomes, commit to memory etc.

I'm not sure Tolkien didn't have an idea of what "magic" was or could be. I think he was more thinking on a case by case basis, with a specific explanation to say, the blades of the dunedain, or Aragorn's healing gifts, Elrond's knowledge, etc. Some of them willingly shrouded in mystery, the obvious one being Tom Bombadil.

You might not feel like it's worth fretting over - that's alright, but personally, I do have to take a step back each time I play an LOTR RPG because none of them ever came close to emulating the world. Yes, I had tons of fun playing MERP, had fun running the Decipher game, so ultimately, you're right, I'm validating your claim. But still. I'd like one day for an "actual" LOTR role playing game to do the job right. I'm sure would have a lot of fun in the process, for sure.

Quote from: LordVreeg;406341"Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took', said Gandalf. 'But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.

'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."
 
as well as
""I could think of nothing to do but put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength."
 
This does an excellent job quoting same.

Interesting link! I'll look into that.

It strikes me that with Sauron and, presumably, most of his major lieutenants gone, the use of magic could come out of the shadows, so to speak. The Fourth Age could be a time of more open use of magic, at least by the forces of good. The servants of shadow would have to skulk around, hiding their magical knowledge until they are able to strike from a position of strength.

This could be the basis of a campaign, as the PCs would be charged with tracking down practitioners of the dark arts. I could see Aragorn himself gathering together teams to hunt down and root out diehard servants of Sauron. This allows for a variety of open-ended adventures, with the PCs having to check in at Minas Tirith as times, and roaming around Middle-earth the rest of the time.

There is also the matter of what kinds of foes the PCs would battle. The Nazgul are gone, but surely some of Sauron's captains survived. This is one I created a good while back for that Fourth Age campaign I discussed earlier:

QuoteUzluk, a Fourth Age NPC

One of the last products of Sauron's vile breeding programs, Uzluk is a monstrous orc groomed as a general for one of the Dark Lord's legions. When the Dark One and his Wraiths were defeated, Uzluk's legion was one of those still held within Mordor as reserves. Though most of Sauron's vast army evaporated as a result of the dismay and confusion his destruction caused, Uzluk was able to lash his troops back into a disciplined force. Uzluk saw that he now had a chance to carve a kingdom of his own, but not here, and not now. He and his staff drove his troops mercilessly south and east, in order to bide time and find lands more easily conquered than Gondor. Smashing into the now-disorganized lands around the Sea of Rhun, he quickly seized a number of fortresses and set about creating an empire. This empire eventually became a formidable opponent for King Elessar and King Eomer when they came to tame Gondor's eastern enemies, and even caused trouble into the reign of Elessar's son, Eldarion.

Uzluk is a cunning and ruthless orc. He is surprisingly learned, and actually can speak and read Quenya and Sindarin, as well as Westron and the Black Speech. He is fiercely loyal to his orcs, but is continually frustrated by their lack of education and vision. He has a surprising amount of respect for King Elessar, whom he holds in something akin to awe. Uzluk's empire is modelled after Gondor, to an extent; yet in the place of Elves, he welcomes and venerates Black Numenoreans, especially those familiar with the use of the black arts. He commissioned these renegade Dunedain to construct for him a powerful weapon, a mighty axe which inflicts horrific burning wounds. As fear-inducing as Uzluk is, especially with his huge axe aflame, he continually feels hunted, knowing that it is only a matter of time before Elessar and his shining armies head south to confront him. In fact, it is the image of a hunter, mounted on a shining steed, that fills his dreams at night.

I was finally able to dig up the notes I made about the premise of "The Ruins of Barad-dur" campaign:

QuoteIt is as if the Dark Lord still haunts his land. It is known that his servants certainly do. Orcs, Trolls, and various factions of evil Men vie for the control of the remnants of the great armies of Mordor. Ghosts, both of Sauron's servants and his enemies - many of whom endured great and long torment in the bowels of Barad-dur - walk this dark land also. Wargs and even fouler creatures roam Mordor, directionless with Sauron's passing, but ruthless and deadly nonetheless. It should also not be forgotten that strange and horrid things still haunt the Ephel Duath, ready to pounce upon those who enter the dark land of Mordor.

Gondor has built a small fortress near the ruins of the Dark Lord's fortress. It is there to guard the ruins, provide a base for expeditions into those ruins, and to be a picket in case any remaining servants of Sauron decide to congregate in force.

The fortress was built using stone hauled in from Gondor. This is because the few remaining keeps near Barad-dur that were intact after the fall of Sauron were so infused with evil that not even the hardiest Gondorian garrison could long abide being in them. Headaches, nightmares, and a general malaise sapped morale. Troops returning from their tour of duty in those places were listless and depressed for months afterward.

King Elessar, concerned for his soldiers, but wanting to ensure that the ruins of the great fortress were not looted by evil beings looking for some of Sauron's powerful artifacts, decided to have a small castle and keep specially built. Dwarves were hired to assist engineers from Minas Tirith, and Durin's folk seemed grimly pleased to be building a fortress in the very face of the Dark Lord's seat of power. Good, clean stone was shipped in great caravans, and the building of the fortress took less than a year.

Teams of explorers, specially commissioned, are examined by the King himself to determine their trustworthiness. They are then sent to various parts of the ruins of Barad-dur, based on their training and experience. So far, only some few pieces of Sauron's vast treasury and armory have been discovered, most of which was so tainted as to necessitate destroying them. Yet the King richly rewards those who return with such items. It is known the King takes a keen interest in the discovery of the palantir once used by Sauron. Though it is now so touched by Sauron's evil as to be worthless to any sane person, the King does not want such an artifact to fall into the hands of Sauron's one-time servants.

There are some few bold adventurers who prowl amongst the ruins outside the approval of King Elessar. Mordor is a vast and darkened land, and the ruins of Barad-dur are also large and spread out. Even the largest, most alert garrison could not prevent the trespass of all those adventurers who sought the ruins. Some come simply to line their own pockets, but many of Sauron's minions covet the wealth they know to remain in the shattered fortress. These miscreants slip amongst the shadows, endeavoring to elude the alert garrison of Gondor.

Here are backgrounds for a couple of Fourth Age NPCs I did a long while back; one is more of a patron, obviously, while the other could be used as a PC:

QuoteEldarion, the son of King Elessar, circa Fourth Age 120, just prior to Elessar's passing

"And Eldarion our son is a man full-ripe for kingship." - Elessar to Arwen, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Appendix A, The Return of the King

Little of Eldarion is told of by Tolkien. The fact that his father had full confidence in his ability to rule speaks volumes, though. It can also be assumed that he bore no small resemblance to his father both physically and in temperament, and also bore the Elven wisdom of his mother. Although the line of Isildur no longer needed to dwell in secrecy, wandering the wilderness, it is likely that Eldarion did much in the way of errantry throughout Middle Earth. This probably included riding with the sons of Elrond, rooting out and destroying evil where it still held sway. He also probably accompanied his father on some of the King's campaigns to the East and South, at least the less dangerous ones; it wouldn't do to risk the line of Isildur being completely extinguished in one swoop. Still, Eldarion would have learned much of the ways of Kingship by watching his father, and his father's friends, such as King Eomer, or such noble vassals as Faramir and Imrahil.

Finanar, a Fourth Age Elf

A veteran of Celeborn's strike against Dol Guldur, Finanar is one of the Elves that braved the horrors of that dark fortress when its walls were thrown down by Galadriel.

Finanar is grim, as Elves go, especially Silvan Elves. He is one of a handful of Elves who volunteered to help Gondor explore and secure the area around Barad-dur, now fallen into ruin after Sauron's destruction. Finanar loves the stars, even more so than Elves usually do, and can often be found silently meditating upon them deep into the night. Occasionally he will sing soft songs of lament, in memory of the Lady Galadriel, now passed over the Sea. He longs to return to Lorien, even now that it is fading, but feels there is still evil to be vanquished, evil that cannot be allowed to grow again. So, now he and his Elves help bolster Gondor's struggle to subdue its old enemies.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406418It strikes me that with Sauron and, presumably, most of his major lieutenants gone, the use of magic could come out of the shadows, so to speak. The Fourth Age could be a time of more open use of magic, at least by the forces of good.

Don't forget the the treasure of ancient and forbidden arcane lore hidden by Saruman in the vaults of Isengard, waiting for brave scholar-adventurers to discover it and bring, at last, the power of magic to the hands of Men.

Quote from: LordVreeg;406341I do think it is worth fretting over.  Akrasia, your points are very well taken and all of this is critical...and worth fretting over.

I didn't mean to sound flippant.  My point simply was that finding the 'perfect system' for the magic of Middle-earth seems like an impossible task, given that I doubt that Tolkien himself had any coherent overarching 'system' in mind when writing his books.

Rather, one should find or create a system that comes 'close enough' to capturing the feel of the magic of Middle-earth for the purposes of the game, in light of one's own interpretation of Middle-earth.

Quote from: LordVreeg;406341This does an excellent job quoting same.

Very nice!  Thanks for the link.  

Quote from: Akrasia;407504I didn't mean to sound flippant.  My point simply was that finding the 'perfect system' for the magic of Middle-earth seems like an impossible task, given that I doubt that Tolkien himself had any coherent overarching 'system' in mind when writing his books.

Rather, one should find or create a system that comes 'close enough' to capturing the feel of the magic of Middle-earth for the purposes of the game, in light of one's own interpretation of Middle-earth.

I think I can come up with a system to model anything.  Or at least, I tell myself that.

Quote from: LordVreeg;406153I totally agree that this is one of the best ways to go about using a middle earth setting.
...
What kind of system would you use, to really capture the essence of this?

I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.

In contrast to MERP, the magic system seems very low-key in nature, a better fit for Middle-earth overall (though probably not 'perfect').

One advantage of the LotRAG is that the later ICE Middle-earth modules included LotRAG stats in the back, along with stats for MERP.  (At least this is an advantage for me!)

There also is a fan-produced 'expanded' version of LotRAG called 'Middle-Earth Adventure Game' ('MEAG') available over at MERP.com.  Apparently MEAG is fully compatible with LotRAG (it simply gives players and GMs more options and detail).