Hey, I didn't say he was wrong about d20 helping your game be successful.

But it depends on what your aims with your game are. If you just want to make money, in the first place forget about rpgs, but if you're stuck on them, then you should do a shitload of ten page d20 pdfs.

But if you have some particular ideas you want to see in print and share with people, then d20 might help you, it might not, depends on the ideas.

I also reject the idea that if a game's written by one person, it must be crap.

Quote from: JimBobOzHey, I didn't say he was wrong about d20 helping your game be successful.

But it depends on what your aims with your game are. If you just want to make money, in the first place forget about rpgs, but if you're stuck on them, then you should do a shitload of ten page d20 pdfs.

But if you have some particular ideas you want to see in print and share with people, then d20 might help you, it might not, depends on the ideas.

I also reject the idea that if a game's written by one person, it must be crap.

I was not commenting on anything you wrote*, Jimbob. Just, that I suspect this will turn into a RyanD sucks thread. Just thought I'd throw in my opinion, before all the drama...

*Most of which I agree with BTW.

Regards,
David R

It reminds me a bit of the various editions of Monopoly that come out.  Simpsons Monopoly. Star Wars Monopoly. Welcome Back Kotter Monopoly.  From a business point of view, this works. I bet if you went to a book/toy store right now you'd find at least 2 variant versions of monopoly there. Maybe more.  And new versions are coming out all the time.

But are they different games?  Or is it the same game with some different fluff attached to it.

If you're more interested in setting, like Ed Greenwood, then d20 *is* a good choice.  If you're more interested in making a different *game* then it has to actually be different.  It can't be Monopoly: Steampunk edition.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut it depends on what your aims with your game are. If you just want to make money, in the first place forget about rpgs, but if you're stuck on them, then you should do a shitload of ten page d20 pdfs.

Then why are you giving him shit for allegedly espousing your own ideas? Or did you miss where he said:

QuoteIf you want to make an RPG just to prove to yourself that you can, and you don't really care if anyone other than a few friends ever plays the game, or you want to create art for the sake of art, the rest of this essay probably isn't for you.
 
On the other hand, if you want to publish an RPG commercially for sale in the US (and possibly Europe), you'll probably find these comments of interest, especially if you want to publish a book product for sale through the traditional 3-tier distribution system (publishers, distributors, and local game stores).

Because he's lying about that as well.

Please name the companies, and numbers people employed full-time, outside Wizards of the Coast, who make their entire income from producing d20 books.

Choosing to have a non-d20 game book, and a d20 game book, if you're not part of Wizards or other "big" company - it's just a matter of choosing whether you want a grand's pocket money each year, or a few grand's.

Be original, make a thousand bucks*; go d20, make two thousand bucks*. That's what it is for the majority of people writing their own rpgs. He's presenting it as though it's "commercial failure and bankruptcy" versus "stunning success and living in the Caribbean snorting coke off hookers' arses." It simply ain't so.

* If you're lucky, and smart.
** If you're lucky, and smart.

Quote from: flyingmiceHey, Bill! Congrats on your Colts! I told everyone the real Super Bowl was Colts vs Pats, and I was right! Great game, and the best team won! Awesome game!

-clash

Psst!  Clash!  The Horsies are MY team!  (Hometown Hoosier right here!)  And yeah, that was the SB.  What a rivalry!

Anyhow back to Dancey:  seems a bit down on small-press publishing in general, doesn't he?  The little check boxes at the bottom aren't bad for someone looking to be a "full-time RPG professional", but nothing too earth-shattering.

I liked this comment at the bottom:

Quote from: RyanDAnyone who knows my record knows that I have more than enough credentials & credits to express opinions on RPG/CCG design & theory.

:rollbarf:

Didn't know there were prerequisites for that, Ryan.

I read the article and was largely unimpressed.  While I found myself agreeing with his more obvious points, he came away sounding a bit like one of those inspirational seminar gurus you catch on paid advertisements lat at night.  Two things to remember about Ryan Dancey.  

1) He's selling the product on which he's staked his career.  
2) He's promoting his own reputation.

I'm not saying he should be distrusted because of these two points, but bear in mind that he has a vested interest in selling you his vision, even to the detriment of other options.  His comments on his blog came as no surprise.

!i!

Quote from: JimBobOz"If you want to design a roleplaying game, you should use d20." unless you have a really good reason

FIFY

If it wasn't for the OGL, I wouldn't be writing for RPG's.  It's as simple as that.  d20's flaws are legion, but it's here, it's free, it's popular and if you don't like something you can fix it.  It's the Open Software model all over again

And if what you are writing is good enough, people will buy it even if they don't use d20, strip out the ideas and stick them in another system

Writing a new game system ain't that easy and (unless you have a model of play that the OGL doesn't support) your time is probably better spent elsewhere - unless you are confident you know how to write the next Runequest

Good point Hastur, and a very true one.

Eh.  D20 is basically overrated unless you intend to stick pretty close to the original.  Too many in-built assumptions and structures, that aren't necessarily going to offer what you want without a shit ton of changes if you're deviating too far from "stock fantasy".

The way I figure it, if I'm having to spend as much effort tweaking a system as I would to just make a new one, then I don't need to be wasting my time.  If by the time I'm done I'm going to have something only barely recognizable as the original anyway then I'm no longer banking on the brand name either.

Plus, the amount of tedium involved in working with d20 in particular made my brain hurt.  I didn't really want to have to deal with trying to part out where the changes were and what was open content and what wasn't and reprinting or reexplaining half of someone elses work just so I could make sense of this change over here.

I found there's a lot more work that goes into making a full game with D20 than folks like Ryan like to suggest, and I'd rather go from scratch.

Conversely, with FUDGE, I found that there was so little there that I was basically again designing a whole system from scratch, with the only common thread a die mechanic that I didn't even like.  

Once he gets done shilling for D20 though, the little checklist towards the end of the post has some good points.

You really want to know what to do if you want to write an RPG? First you answer these two questions:

1. What do you do?

2. How do you do it?

You can't answer either of those questions, you're screwed.

Quote from: David RDon't get what the big deal is. He's right. Most folks like d20 and if you want to be successful, there's a higher chance you will be if you use d20 and some(if not all) of his suggestions.

David R

 Thats not true everywhere.  It helps that you do have the qualifier "most" on there.
 Its not that "most Folks" like D20 -  in some cases thats all they know because that game mechanic is coupled with the  800 pound gorilla name of Dungeons & Dragons.

 There are other  "generic" or universal games out there.  Examples : SAVAGE WORLDS, the HERO system and GURPS come to mind right off the bat.

- E.W. Charlton

Quote from: KoltarThats not true everywhere.  It helps that you do have the qualifier "most" on there.
 Its not that "most Folks" like D20 -  in some cases thats all they know because that game mechanic is coupled with the  800 pound gorilla name of Dungeons & Dragons.

 There are other  "generic" or universal games out there.  Examples : SAVAGE WORLDS, the HERO system and GURPS come to mind right off the bat.

No, really, most folks prefer d20 because it's the system they know from D&D and they don't want nothing to do with learning how to play the game again.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerNo, really, most folks prefer d20 because it's the system they know from D&D and they don't want nothing to do with learning how to play the game again.

I enjoy D20, don't get me wrong by my rant.  I don't think it's right for everything, and I think it's important to try new things.  you just may find something you like even better.

But Brad's right.  Most people, as in, a good 75% or more of the market, do in fact, prefer D20.  On the most absolute, literal, statisical leve, it is an undeniable truth of the roleplaying hobby that most people simply play D&D.

Pretending otherwises suggests a disconnection from the reality of the gaming world, though one that, for internet savvy gamers, is very common.  

A lot of folks who spend too much time on the Internet have an unfortunate tendency to believe that the tastes of the general public actually coincide with whatever their little community thinks is important.

It doesn't.

It may be true that 75% of the roleplaying market is d20 & D&D, but that does not mean that the remaining 25% is actually 0%. 25% is pretty significant. I think that most roleplaying game companies would be quite happy at getting 25% of the market Certainly it's unlikely that any one book will get that 25%, but...

The reality is that there is no rpg book which everyone will buy, you just try to create one that a substantial number of people will buy, "substantial" being a word relative to your aims - whether you want to make a living, or just get some pocket money, or just have some idea you want to spread around.

If you want to make a living selling rpg stuff, then it's definitely a good idea to go for d20. But that's not the aim of most game designers, they just want pocket money or have a few ideas they want to share. Ryan Dancey may say, "well, how many non-d20 writers are making a living from it?" And I would answer with, "how many d20 writers are making a living from it?" The answer, in both cases, must be, "fucking close to none at all."