QuoteSettembrini, I notice in your list of games you have played that you have not played any games you would call thematic.

That was my top ten. not my games played.

I own and have played Pantheon several times.

Quote from: SettembriniI own and have played Pantheon several times.

Do you like it?

Well, as a leisure activity it was okay.

And the bidding mechanism is as funky as your average die comparison mechanism.

It´s about the same fun I had when playing Activity, although Activity is a lot sillier when alcohol is involved.

But it nowwhere came near to be in any way the sort of fun I can have wih my other RPGs.

It was new and different then, but not mind-blowingly so. My experiences with other games where along the same lines. It did the same sort of fun for me as the others. And when reading Actual Plays, I cannot see that much of a differrence.
Especially as the player input is so hugely important. It all depends on the participants. And that thing I can also pull off with Narrative Cagematch.

But you definitely convinced me of the refinement that happened.

Oh, fuck--I just spotted a rather embarrassing and significant typo in my post! When I said "System Generation," I really meant to say "Situation generation." It's corrected now. :duh:

Anyway, I think that was one of the most important points in my post (so of course I mangled it). Situation generation, as in "here's how to engineer a situation in your game so it applies pressure in just the right ways to address your theme" is probably the most significant development in "Thematic" gaming. And it's not present in Pantheon. So it's either a whole-cloth innovation, or derived from somewhere else. Anyone know of any good forerunning text for this? The GM section in Over the Edge has hints at this; at least it describes Jonathan Tweet's GMing methodology for that game very well so that the reader can duplicate it, though I'm not sure exactly how thematic Jon's trying to be there. And it seems to me pretty rudimentary compared to Dogs towns, or even Sorceror R-maps.

Which brings me to a deeper point: I'd like to know, Sett, what you believe is important about the distinction between "refinement" and "innovation," and where you draw the line between the two. Because what I'm picking up from you is that the requirement for "innovation" is arising wholly on its own without building on anything that came before. You sound like you're conceding on the lesser "refinements" but sticking to your guns on the "innovation" issue.

Whereas I'm looking at things in a more fluid manner. If a "refinement" improves on an existing technique in a sufficiently large and startling way, then it's an innovation. Mozart definitely innovated in the field of music, though he definitely used the same accepted musical structure as everyone else, for example. Thus I'm willing to let My Life with Master be considered a mere refinement (bearing in mind, I haven't read it) of the One-shot, defined scenario aspects of Pantheon, whereas I call Capes' and DitV's conflict resolution genuine innovations over Pantheon's bidding, if indeed they're derived from it (and bearing in mind, I also haven't read that.)

Which is a significant thing to consider, too: a given game may or may not have been influenced by Pantheon. Ok sure, maybe influenced ina general way, like how all comics artists are influenced by Jack Kirby whether they know it or not, and all RPGs are based to some degree on wargaming. But not necessarily related directly, such that we can discuss it meaningfully. Tony has said that his game is based on Amber, so Pantheon may not even enter into it at all. I can only guess what Vincent's influences are.

On another note, I'm very interested, Sett, in why you consider Pantheon thematic. It doesn't sound very thematic to me, so I'm curious what you see in it from direct experience and actual play, that causes you to label it so.

Peace,
-Joel

PS When you say "Narrative Cagematch," is that just your term for this kind of game, or is it an actual product? It's becoming unclear.

QuotePS When you say "Narrative Cagematch," is that just your term for this kind of game, or is it an actual product? It's becoming unclear.

"Pantheon and other games" is the title of the book.

"Narrative Cagematch" is the title of the rules system used for all games in the book.

More on why I felt it´s thematic later.

Thanks, that clears things up.