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Author Topic: Roll dice or say "yes."  (Read 10448 times)

luke

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Roll dice or say "yes."
« on: September 03, 2006, 03:31:58 AM »
Since we're having a party over here, I thought I'd join in, too. It irritated the hell out of me that no one referenced the exact text for the mythical and fabled "Say 'Yes'" in this kerfu , so I thought I'd post it. This is text from my game, which also happens to quote Vincent's original text. It's a double whammy on discount just for you:

Quote from: From The Burning Wheel page 75

Vincent’s Admonition
In his game, Dogs in the Vineyard, Vincent Baker articulates a convention of Burning Wheel so well that I’d rather use his words than my own. He says:

Every moment of play, roll dice or say “yes.”
If nothing is at stake, say “yes” [to the player’s request], whatever they’re doing. Just go along with them. If they ask for information, give it to them. If they have their characters go somewhere, they’re there. If they want it, it’s theirs.
Sooner or later—sooner, because [your game’s] pregnant with crisis—they’ll have their characters do something that someone else won’t like. Bang! Something’s at stake. Start the conflict and roll the dice.
Roll dice, or say “yes.”


Vincent’s advice is perfect for Burning Wheel. Unless there is something at stake in the story you have created, don’t bother with the dice. Keep moving, keep describing, keep roleplaying. But as soon as your character wants something—needs something—that he doesn’t have, that he doesn’t know, that someone else has, roll the dice.

Flip that around and it reveals a fundamental rule in Burning Wheel game play: When there is conflict, roll the dice. There is no social agreement for the resolution of conflict in this game. Roll the dice and let the obstacle system guide the outcome. Success or failure doesn’t really matter. So long as the intent of the task is clearly stated, the story is going somewhere.


As you can see, the "Roll the dice or say yes" rule is for conflict resolution. The issues presented in the referenced thread surrounding the introduction of the crazy H-Bomb or the "solve the mystery now" or "I want be at the end of the dungeon" are not really covered by this rule. They are actually covered in an area above this rule -- the social contract of the gaming group. Egregious and outlandish requests that go beyond the scope of the game you've all agreed to play are addressed by the group as a whole, not by GM fiat or anything like that. You agreed to play DnD, so there's no H-Bombs and there's a particular system you must use to get to the end of the dungeon. That's some basic stuff that's left unspoken in most groups and games. In a few games and groups, it's explicit.

Also, it's worth noting that "Vincent's Admonition" is not a rule in the same context as, say, Advancement in Burning Wheel. It's not a "mechanic" per se. Just like in Dogs, it's advice for how to run the game for best results; it's an explicit statement not to roadblock the players and it's grease in the game set up wheels that helps get to big and important conflicts faster.

-Luke

Post Script: I would like to publicly and formally ask for forebearance and mercy in this thread (and any others I post here, really). Please refrain from calling me and my friends names. I would appreciate it and I think you will, too.
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Settembrini

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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2006, 06:23:07 AM »
See? It's special rules for special games with special premises. No right or even claim whatsoever to be a universal law. So no right or need to bring it up in dicussions, where Adventure Gaming is concerned.

Adventure Gamin is Character-Task centered. It's also ressource centered.

Conflict Resolution is as important to Adventure Games, as equipment lists are for Thematic Games.,

Nobody cares for what you want, it's all about what your Character can plausibly do. And there you can have all kinds of "No", as a world modeled after reality, and not after the "issues, stakes and story goals" of  the players, has all kinds of impossibilites.

Case settled.
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JamesV

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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2006, 07:40:06 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
See? It's special rules for special games with special premises. No right or even claim whatsoever to be a universal law. So no right or need to bring it up in dicussions, where Adventure Gaming is concerned.

Adventure Gamin is Character-Task centered. It's also ressource centered.

Conflict Resolution is as important to Adventure Games, as equipment lists are for Thematic Games.,

Nobody cares for what you want, it's all about what your Character can plausibly do. And there you can have all kinds of "No", as a world modeled after reality, and not after the "issues, stakes and story goals" of  the players, has all kinds of impossibilites.

Case settled.


What I'm wondering is why you insist on taking a piece of advice and taking it so broadly that it becomes useless in your games. It has a place and even a greater context in adventure gaming that you seem to be just unwilling to accept at your table. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Spike

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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2006, 08:21:01 AM »
on the face of it, and reading how it is written in at least ONE source, I would agree that 'roll or say yes' is not in and of itself... bad.  

Seriously, it is an excellent method of keeping things running smoothly and not getting bogged down in minutae.  And if you are like me, so used to getting refused when playing that when you GM you treat every request for anything as a personal affront, its a great reminded to let things go and let the players enjoy the game a little.


But... we aren't dealing with the intent, or the face of things. The problem is in the wording, in the depiction. The Burnign wheel quote may be fairly harmlessly worded, but there are other quotable versions out there, adn the very hardest proponents are claiming it should be a hard written rule that hte GM can't refuse anything the players want without a spectacular reason. And who has time for spectacular reasons? I don't.

Yes is not always the answer.  In fact, saying no to even 'idiot simple' requests can provide a more interesting story for players. Conflict isn't always big battles. Think about the road warrior movie: Getting the damn truck was half the movie. (yes there was fighting gettign the truck... bear with me here...)

my five cents cause I'm too verbose to stick with two...
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JamesV

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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2006, 08:37:14 AM »
Quote from: Spike
But... we aren't dealing with the intent, or the face of things. The problem is in the wording, in the depiction. The Burnign wheel quote may be fairly harmlessly worded, but there are other quotable versions out there, adn the very hardest proponents are claiming it should be a hard written rule that hte GM can't refuse anything the players want without a spectacular reason. And who has time for spectacular reasons? I don't.


Must the discussion always be framed in the terms of the most extreme opinions on this matter? Because for as far as I can tell, the people who've been involved in this discussion don't even espouse them. I'm not up on my rhetoric, but that's kind of a strawman. "You like 'yes or roll 'em' , so you're for free AK-47s for D&D PCs!"

Quote from: Spike
Yes is not always the answer.  In fact, saying no to even 'idiot simple' requests can provide a more interesting story for players. Conflict isn't always big battles. Think about the road warrior movie: Getting the damn truck was half the movie. (yes there was fighting gettign the truck... bear with me here...)


You know that's a actually a great argument for 'yes or roll 'em' because there's a huge, huge difference between.
Q: Can I have a truck?
A: No.

and

Q: Can I have a truck?
A: Well, you've heard rumors that if you head for...
or
A: You can try to find one.

The former kills the whole situation dead. The latter is the basis for a whole night's fun in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
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Settembrini

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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 08:38:52 AM »
It comes all down to this:

Is it an absolute?

Or

just: "Keep the game moving".?

The first can only be applied to those games designed for it, and even they use the "bullshit rule" which basically comes down to use common sense and isn't that absolute anymore.

The second has been, well, around for a long, long time.
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Settembrini

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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2006, 08:40:29 AM »
Quote
Q: Can I have a truck?
A: Well, you've heard rumors that if you head for...
or
A: You can try to find one.

The former kills the whole situation dead. The latter is the basis for a whole night's fun in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

The second is what we call roleplaying games. What have you been doing before Vincent and Luke came around? Boy this is strange, either I'm totally misreading, or there have been some strange games in the past...
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Zachary The First

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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2006, 08:42:54 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
It comes all down to this:

Is it an absolute?

Or

just: "Keep the game moving".?

The first can only be applied to those games designed for it, and even they use the "bullshit rule" which basically comes down to use common sense and isn't that absolute anymore.

The second has been, well, around for a long, long time.

"Keep the game moving" is a good, basic piece of GM advice, given form in Burning Wheel as the advice to "let it ride", basically, one roll for a skill in a scene--not rerolling your stealth for every guard in the castle, say.  Basic, but good stuff--it never hurts to have it mentioned, that's for sure.
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JamesV

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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2006, 08:45:33 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
The second is what we call roleplaying games. What have you been doing before Vincent and Luke came around? Boy this is strange, either I'm totally misreading, or there have been some strange games in the past...


Well, yeah, that's really possible, and IMO it relates to Swine behavior. Think about it. Railroading is the ultimate expression of No in an RPG. The only PC actions that are allowed or applicable are the ones that fit into the GM's 'story' or the RPG's metaplot.
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Spike

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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2006, 08:46:34 AM »
JamesV, this thread was posted to defend the rule by pointing out a specific instance where it was reasonably written and fair minded. Sadly, there are other, less reasonable viewpoints that use the same 'rule' as a starting point. Pointing that out is not a strawman. The extremists are out there, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.


Your truck senario was exactly what I was talking about. Saying 'well you've heard...' isn't the first thing that comes to mind when you hear 'say yes'.

There is no 'yes' in 'well you heard'.  See? Remember your lowest common denomenator: People are idiots, the more people, the more idiots.

If the rule was more akin to : Think carefully before saying no. then it might be fine, if a bit uncatchy.  



I'm going to go out on a limb here: But didn't Noblis include the 'say yes' rule first, and more strictly than Burning Wheel?
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Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2006, 08:53:30 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
See? It's special rules for special games with special premises. No right or even claim whatsoever to be a universal law. So no right or need to bring it up in dicussions, where Adventure Gaming is concerned.

Adventure Gamin is Character-Task centered. It's also ressource centered.

Conflict Resolution is as important to Adventure Games, as equipment lists are for Thematic Games.,

Nobody cares for what you want, it's all about what your Character can plausibly do. And there you can have all kinds of "No", as a world modeled after reality, and not after the "issues, stakes and story goals" of  the players, has all kinds of impossibilites.

Case settled.


This is the best answer.
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Settembrini

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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2006, 08:55:05 AM »
Quote
Well, yeah, that's really possible, and IMO it relates to Swine behavior. Think about it. Railroading is the ultimate expression of No in an RPG. The only PC actions that are allowed or applicable are the ones that fit into the GM's 'story' or the RPG's metaplot.

It's a bit harsh to assume, but it clearly looks like it. Then I have to applaud Vincent and whoever else for bringing back some sense to some gamers, and showing them how you can actually play.
It's just ridiculous how some Folks think the Forge has a private ownership of functional play, when it has been around at good GMs since 1965. There must have been some real bad sessions in the mid nineties...
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JamesV

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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2006, 09:07:17 AM »
Quote from: Spike

Your truck senario was exactly what I was talking about. Saying 'well you've heard...' isn't the first thing that comes to mind when you hear 'say yes'.
There is no 'yes' in 'well you heard'.  See? Remember your lowest common denomenator: People are idiots, the more people, the more idiots.
If the rule was more akin to : Think carefully before saying no. then it might be fine, if a bit uncatchy.  

I'm going to go out on a limb here: But didn't Noblis include the 'say yes' rule first, and more strictly than Burning Wheel?


While it's not really a yes, it's definitely not a no. And for me that works and keeps my games flowing and fun.

Oh and if you're right and the rule showed up in Nobilis first, then Settimbrini was definitely right earlier. The rule had a specific context, in Nobilis the players have god-like powers. It then makes sense that their requests be indulged most of the time.
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The Yann Waters

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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2006, 09:57:38 AM »
Quote from: Spike
I'm going to go out on a limb here: But didn't Noblis include the 'say yes' rule first, and more strictly than Burning Wheel?
"Never Say 'No'", when a player asks whether her character can attempt some in-game action during play. Once again, this doesn't apply to such matters as chargen, or even guarantee that the attempt will in any way prove successful.

(Also, it's not so much a rule as a piece of gamemastering advice, "if you wish to make sure that you do not slip and accidentally place your established story over the fun of the players in the game.")
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luke

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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2006, 10:50:19 AM »
Spike,
Actually, this rule as expressed in that text doesn't exist in any other games except maybe the Shadow of Yesterday. There's no secret cabal to encode dysfunctional versions of it into game texts. I think you might be talking about something else. Can anyone quote the text from Nobilis?


Settem,
So we're in agreement. Sweet. Thought I envy you your 40 years of smooth and functional play experience! For me, my gaming experience is littered with fruitless "No"s. In Paranoia, Dungeons and Dragons, Call of Cthulhu, Shadow Run and Fading Suns I've been smacked down to the point of being disinterested in play. Hell, I've even done it myself to players. I felt a reminder in the text would be useful. Since Burning Wheel is a traditional fantasy game, I wanted to help folks avoid a traditional fantasy rpg pitfall. Because as James V pointed out, there's a big difference between this:

Quote

Q: Can I have a truck?
A: No.


and this

Quote

Q: Can I have a truck?
A1: Well, you've heard rumors that if you head for...
or
A2: You can try to find one.

The former kills the whole situation dead. The latter is the basis for a whole night's fun in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.


As you said, Settem, the second is one of the fundamentals of a functional roleplaying game. Sometimes we need to be reminded of the fundamentals!

Thanks guys,
-Luke
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